HELP! Sleep training questions

honeydew01 · July 2013

we started sleep training (ferber) last Saturday night. It was going great until 2 nights ago where we hit a sleep training regression. I've researched and seems like it does happen with some kids where they try to protest one more time before giving in to the "new routine." The first night she cried for 22 minutes but then laid there for 3.5 hours just staring at her surrounding and then cried for a minutes and fell sleep. The next few nights were much better. Just a few minutes of sleeping and 3 feeds. Things started going backwards 2 nights ago where she laid there from 2 to 5:30 am just staring at the walls and not sleeping. I don't know what to do? she's not crying so we don't go in to check on her (we watch her on the monitor.) So 2 questions:

1. what should I do when she just lays there for hours and not cry, yet not sleep either. Ferber does not mention this scenario.

2. She started rolling today. She's rolling like crazy, back to stomach and then gets annoyed that she can't roll back to her back. I expect her to do this 100 times tonight. We are mid-training do we go in each time to roll her back to her stomach?

We were so happy that things were working out but now I am all discouraged and unsure and sleep deprived still.

SarahandSam2007 · July 2013

Personally, I think that sounds like she is withdrawing, perhaps? Would you consider bringing her into your room to see if that would comfort her and allow her to sleep? It doesn't sound like the current situation achieved getting you any sleep either, which I'm sure was part of your goal in sleep training. Maybe try something different if Ferber didn't get you where you wanted to be in terms of everyone's sleep.

The other consideration is the huge developmental leap she is making with rolling--it's going to disrupt her sleep. Babies sleep will change all the time and this is a good example of why that might happen. You might have to re-train her when she hits milestones like this. So, you'll have to decide if you want to go through the crying all over if she just happens to react like this as she grows.

pb_bride · July 2013

For #1, I guess the question is how long is the overnight sleep? Ferber addresses in his book the issue of "extended night wakings", which is usually due to too many hours babies are kept in the crib at night. That time of night is when their sleep pressure is the lowest, so if they wake up, some may have trouble falling back to sleep if they're not tired enough. If you're putting your DD down really early in the evening, try moving her bedtime back a little and see if that helps.

For #2, IME, rolling them back onto their backs won't help. DS was like that and when we tried rolling him back, he would immediately roll back on his tummy and start crying. Babies just can't help trying out the new skills, even if they'll make them unhappy! We just toughed it out and let him cry ... he eventually got used to sleeping on his tummy and is now his preferred position. It took several days for DS to be comfortable sleeping on his tummy.

honeydew01 · July 2013

pb_bride:
For #1, I guess the question is how long is the overnight sleep? Ferber addresses in his book the issue of "extended night wakings", which is usually due to too many hours babies are kept in the crib at night. That time of night is when their sleep pressure is the lowest, so if they wake up, some may have trouble falling back to sleep if they're not tired enough. If you're putting your DD down really early in the evening, try moving her bedtime back a little and see if that helps.
For #2, IME, rolling them back onto their backs won't help. DS was like that and when we tried rolling him back, he would immediately roll back on his tummy and start crying. Babies just can't help trying out the new skills, even if they'll make them unhappy! We just toughed it out and let him cry ... he eventually got used to sleeping on his tummy and is now his preferred position. It took several days for DS to be comfortable sleeping on his tummy.

Thanks!

1.We start the bedtime routine around 6:30 and she's usually in bed by 7 to 7:15. She shows signs of being tired close to 6 and it was my understanding that sleep begets sleep and the early bedtime was a good time. I'm afraid if I try to hold her til 8 or so she'd be overtired and sleep even worse.

2. I don't want it to become a game by flipping her to her back position over and over. But should I not worry about the risk of SIDS? What if she sleeps on her nose?

pb_bride · July 2013

honeydew01:

Thanks!
1.We start the bedtime routine around 6:30 and she's usually in bed by 7 to 7:15. She shows signs of being tired close to 6 and it was my understanding that sleep begets sleep and the early bedtime was a good time. I'm afraid if I try to hold her til 8 or so she'd be overtired and sleep even worse.
2. I don't want it to become a game by flipping her to her back position over and over. But should I not worry about the risk of SIDS? What if she sleeps on her nose?

1) What time does she wake up for the day? How many naps a day does she take, and how many hours does she sleep during naps? You don't have a ticker, but since you're posting in the 6-9m board, I assume she's in this age range. On average babies at this age sleep about 14-15 hours in a 24-hr period. If she is getting too much sleep during her nap, or if she's sleeping late in the morning, she may be just not enough to sleep overnight in those wee hours. You can always try pushing her bedtime back at 15 minutes at a time to see if that helps. If she is napping too much during the day, you can also try cutting those back a bit.

2) SIDS risk drop dramatically by 6 months. Also, once babies are strong enough to roll over to their tummy, they are strong enough to lift their nose/face off the mattress to prevent suffocation. My DS rolled back->tummy at 4 months, and that scared me because that age was within the SIDS concern. I remember putting my hand on his back MOTN just to feel his body to see if he was breathing. Took 2 weeks for me to relax. But honestly, if your DD is over 6 months, the concern is minimal.

honeydew01 · July 2013

pb_bride:
honeydew01:

Thanks!
1.We start the bedtime routine around 6:30 and she's usually in bed by 7 to 7:15. She shows signs of being tired close to 6 and it was my understanding that sleep begets sleep and the early bedtime was a good time. I'm afraid if I try to hold her til 8 or so she'd be overtired and sleep even worse.
2. I don't want it to become a game by flipping her to her back position over and over. But should I not worry about the risk of SIDS? What if she sleeps on her nose?
1) What time does she wake up for the day? How many naps a day does she take, and how many hours does she sleep during naps? You don't have a ticker, but since you're posting in the 6-9m board, I assume she's in this age range. On average babies at this age sleep about 14-15 hours in a 24-hr period. If she is getting too much sleep during her nap, or if she's sleeping late in the morning, she may be just not enough to sleep overnight in those wee hours. You can always try pushing her bedtime back at 15 minutes at a time to see if that helps. If she is napping too much during the day, you can also try cutting those back a bit.
2) SIDS risk drop dramatically by 6 months. Also, once babies are strong enough to roll over to their tummy, they are strong enough to lift their nose/face off the mattress to prevent suffocation. My DS rolled back->tummy at 4 months, and that scared me because that age was within the SIDS concern. I remember putting my hand on his back MOTN just to feel his body to see if he was breathing. Took 2 weeks for me to relax. But honestly, if your DD is over 6 months, the concern is minimal.

Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it.
I've kept track of her sleeping/napping/eating times since week 3 and she's never had 2 same days. She usually has 3-4 MONF, so every 2-3 hours give or take. When she was younger (3 month) she sometimes only woke up once in the MOTN but since she hit 4 months old she wakes up more frequently.
Usually she eats at 5ish am and sleeps an hour or two. Sometimes she's up for the day at 5:30 after the feed...She naps 3 times a day, rarely a short 4th one. We were planning to nap train next, but basically if she's napping on me, she naps anywhere from 45 min to 2 hours. Some days her naps are short, three 30 minute ones. I can never tell how a day is going to go I wish she was more predictable.
She's 5 months old. I posted the question here because I thought more people are in sleep training mode and may have answers.
Thanks again.

EPQueen · July 2013

SarahandSam2007:
Personally, I think that sounds like she is withdrawing, perhaps?nbsp; Would you consider bringing her into your room to see if that would comfort her and allow her to sleep?nbsp; It doesn't sound like the current situation achieved getting you any sleep either, which I'm sure was part of your goal in sleep training.nbsp; Maybe try something different if Ferber didn't get you where you wanted to be in terms of everyone's sleep.nbsp; The other consideration is the huge developmental leap she is making with rollingit's going to disrupt her sleep.nbsp; Babies sleep will change all the time and this is a good example of why that might happen.nbsp; You might have to retrain her when she hits milestones like this.nbsp; So, you'll have to decide if you want to go through the crying all over if she just happens to react like this as she grows.nbsp;

My first thought was also that the baby could possibly be withdrawing. It was and still is a major concern of mine with sleep training. We tried Ferber last weekend without much success. LO went into crazy inconsolable hysterics. We are instead sitting in his room while he puts himself to sleep in the crib, with occasional back patting or ssshhing. Much less traumatic on both of us. Keep us posted OP!

SarahandSam2007 · July 2013

honeydew01:
pb_bride:
honeydew01:

Thanks!
1.We start the bedtime routine around 6:30 and she's usually in bed by 7 to 7:15. She shows signs of being tired close to 6 and it was my understanding that sleep begets sleep and the early bedtime was a good time. I'm afraid if I try to hold her til 8 or so she'd be overtired and sleep even worse.
2. I don't want it to become a game by flipping her to her back position over and over. But should I not worry about the risk of SIDS? What if she sleeps on her nose?
1) What time does she wake up for the day? How many naps a day does she take, and how many hours does she sleep during naps? You don't have a ticker, but since you're posting in the 6-9m board, I assume she's in this age range. On average babies at this age sleep about 14-15 hours in a 24-hr period. If she is getting too much sleep during her nap, or if she's sleeping late in the morning, she may be just not enough to sleep overnight in those wee hours. You can always try pushing her bedtime back at 15 minutes at a time to see if that helps. If she is napping too much during the day, you can also try cutting those back a bit.
2) SIDS risk drop dramatically by 6 months. Also, once babies are strong enough to roll over to their tummy, they are strong enough to lift their nose/face off the mattress to prevent suffocation. My DS rolled back->tummy at 4 months, and that scared me because that age was within the SIDS concern. I remember putting my hand on his back MOTN just to feel his body to see if he was breathing. Took 2 weeks for me to relax. But honestly, if your DD is over 6 months, the concern is minimal.

Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it.
I've kept track of her sleeping/napping/eating times since week 3 and she's never had 2 same days. She usually has 3-4 MONF, so every 2-3 hours give or take. When she was younger (3 month) she sometimes only woke up once in the MOTN but since she hit 4 months old she wakes up more frequently.
Usually she eats at 5ish am and sleeps an hour or two. Sometimes she's up for the day at 5:30 after the feed...She naps 3 times a day, rarely a short 4th one. We were planning to nap train next, but basically if she's napping on me, she naps anywhere from 45 min to 2 hours. Some days her naps are short, three 30 minute ones. I can never tell how a day is going to go I wish she was more predictable.
She's 5 months old. I posted the question here because I thought more people are in sleep training mode and may have answers.
Thanks again.

Her nap pattern sounds totally normal. It's a little early for her to have a "schedule." Then again, I'm 32 and I dont't have a schedule I follow every day either! The increase in MOTN feeds is also totally normal. Maybe try to find ways to adapt to her needs right now and wait it out until she is through this phase? Not sure if you are working, but when I returned to work, it through a wrench in my baby's nights. He adjusted though. Any significant schedule change lately?

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