Intro to board, turned into a bit of a rant

April! · May 2013

Hi, ladies. I have been lurking but thought I should introduce myself! I'm feeling a little alienated from my BMB, more on that below.

I'm 38 weeks with my first, planning a hospital water birth with a midwife. My hospital uses all midwives unless there are certain complications and you need to see an OB, so I have only seen midwives my whole pregnancy. I'm getting excited to find out what labor is like and to meet my baby. I'm doing lots of positive visualization and hoping for the best!

It's great and helpful reading your birth stories! The birth stories on my BMB make me sad. So many interventions and inductions, and "the baby got stuck" or it was taking too long so they needed a csection, even with women who wanted a "natural" birth. It makes me feel really lucky, and sad that not everyone has the same choices. I know some women make the choice to have an induction, or epidural, or csection, and I can't really judge them for that. Okay, I judge some of them a teeny tiny bit. Mobile smiley face here! I just wish some women weren't forced into making those kinds of decisions by interventionist doctors and hospital policies.

Ahem. Steps off soapbox.

RMama2012 · May 2013

To be honest, what I judge is the uninformed mamas. It's one thing to say, I couldn't handle the contractions and I got an epi or I was so exhausted, I needed the epi. It's another to say "I walked in the door 4cm with easy contractions and then they started the pitocin" or "My blood pressure was so low after the epi, thank God I was in the hospital" or women who think the epi is medically necessary and other things like you referenced.

Goodluck with your natural birth. I had a natural hospital birth and my OB was great.

April! · May 2013

RMama2012:
To be honest, what I judge is the uninformed mamas. It's one thing to say, I couldn't handle the contractions and I got an epi or I was so exhausted, I needed the epi. It's another to say "I walked in the door 4cm with easy contractions and then they started the pitocin" or "My blood pressure was so low after the epi, thank God I was in the hospital" or women who think the epi is medically necessary and other things like you referenced.

Goodluck with your natural birth. I had a natural hospital birth and my OB was great.

That is an excellent point, and a good reminder that I won't know what it's like until I'm doing it myself!

mrssamarataylor · May 2013

I feel the exact same way! I hope that you have an excellent birthing experience and update us I come to this board also because my group doesn't really talk about it, or they attack those who talk about wanting a natural birth (the assume you're attacking them for wanting'/needing interventions and epi) which isn't the case. I also can't turn to my friend who is just 4 weeks ahead of me because she literally is ok with being knocked out and waking up to a baby. -_-

Good luck with everything! I hope for a awesome natural birth myself!

oliversmommy32912 · May 2013

You know who I judge? Women who look down on other women for their birth choices. Everyone deserves to have the birth they desire. Whether that be a hospital birth, a home birth, an epidural, an unmedicated birth, an induction, or letting your body go to 43 weeks. I do not wish to be judged for my decision to have an unmedicated birth and I'm sure these women would not want people judging them for their birth choices, especially by someone who has not actually given birth before.
If you must judge someone please judge the medical providers that these patients trust to educate them and make the best decisions for them. They suck at it.

And to PP, really? You say you judge the women who are not educated about their birth choices? They are the ones who should be judged least of all. They should be able to trust their medical providers to help them make the best decisions for their bodies and their babies. Unfortunately, they can't trust them at all. Instead perhaps we should try to pass along the information we know so that they do ask questions and challenge the system. If someone has not spoken with me about natural birth I would have probably had a hospital birth full of interventions with an OB that would have treated me as if I was just another number. I am the first person for generations on both sides of my family to plan and succeed in having an unmedicated birth. I never knew there was a benefit to doing it another way. Thank goodness someone educated me instead of judging me.

Eta: Sorry for the harsh words OP. I know you mean well. Good luck on your upcoming birth. I hope you get exactly the birth you are hoping for!

tmrchi · May 2013

I know exactly what you mean. I felt the same way once all the birth stories hit my BMB. I do wish there was some more education so that women knew there were options out there. Whatever they choose is their choice, but it does stink that a lot of women don't know what their options should be, although with OB practices, and hospital policies and insurance coverage, it is more complicated sometimes.

My advice is to keep reading birth stories/watching birth videos that fit the birth you would like, but keep remembering to prepare just in case things don't go according to your plan.

RMama2012 · May 2013

oliversmommy32912:
And to PP, really? You say you judge the women who are not educated about their birth choices? They are the ones who should be judged least of all. They should be able to trust their medical providers to help them make the best decisions for their bodies and their babies. Unfortunately, they can't trust them at all. Instead perhaps we should try to pass along the information we know so that they do ask questions and challenge the system. If someone has not spoken with me about natural birth I would have probably had a hospital birth full of interventions with an OB that would have treated me as if I was just another number. I am the first person for generations on both sides of my family to plan and succeed in having an unmedicated birth. I never knew there was a benefit to doing it another way. Thank goodness someone educated me instead of judging me.

Yeah, I really do. Like I said, I could care less about choosing some of these options but there is no excuse for not educating yourself about birth. I only gave birth a year ago and when asked about it, I give my honest opinion about birth and most importantly "whatever you choose, just educate yourself beforehand."

However, I am referring to those who have done it without ever bothering to learn a single thing about it. It doesn't matter how many people you know who gave birth. You have a responsibility to yourself and your child to educate yourself. None of these people I know are illererate or don't have the internet. So I don't see an excuse for not researching a bit about it. If you buy a refridgerator, you would read reviews and ask around. Why wouldn't you do it about the most important event of your life???

oliversmommy32912 · May 2013

RMama2012:
oliversmommy32912:
And to PP, really? You say you judge the women who are not educated about their birth choices? They are the ones who should be judged least of all. They should be able to trust their medical providers to help them make the best decisions for their bodies and their babies. Unfortunately, they can't trust them at all. Instead perhaps we should try to pass along the information we know so that they do ask questions and challenge the system. If someone has not spoken with me about natural birth I would have probably had a hospital birth full of interventions with an OB that would have treated me as if I was just another number. I am the first person for generations on both sides of my family to plan and succeed in having an unmedicated birth. I never knew there was a benefit to doing it another way. Thank goodness someone educated me instead of judging me.

Yeah, I really do.  Like I said, I could care less about choosing some of these options but there is no excuse for not educating yourself about birth.  I only gave birth a year ago and when asked about it, I give my honest opinion about birth and most importantly "whatever you choose, just educate yourself beforehand." 

However, I am referring to those who have done it without ever bothering to learn a single thing about it.  It doesn't matter how many people you know who gave birth.  You have a responsibility to yourself and your child to educate yourself.  None of these people I know are illererate or don't have the internet.  So I don't see an excuse for not researching a bit about it.  If you buy a refridgerator, you would read reviews and ask around.  Why wouldn't you do it about the most important event of your life???

I see the point you are trying to make and I can appreciate it. I wish every woman knew they should ask questions and research for themselves. However, many of these women believe their doctor knows what is best for them because they are the ones with the degree. It is unfortunate. I prefer to think of these women as mislead rather than purposefully ignorant. It's a problem with our culture. This board is filled with women who have had one or more births that were unsatisfactory because they thought they could trust their medical provider. Perhaps one of them will chime in with their experience?

Eta: If you were buying a refridgerator you would read reviews and research, true. But if you had your own personal refridgerator expert who went to refridgerator school and assured you he knew exactly what type of refridgerator was the best, the safest, the perfect refridgerator for you and your family... Might you listen to this person and trust that they knew their stuff? After all, they're the expert.

blush64 · May 2013

April!:
Hi, ladies. I have been lurking but thought I should introduce myself! I'm feeling a little alienated from my BMB, more on that below. I'm 38 weeks with my first, planning a hospital water birth with a midwife. My hospital uses all midwives unless there are certain complications and you need to see an OB, so I have only seen midwives my whole pregnancy. I'm getting excited to find out what labor is like and to meet my baby. I'm doing lots of positive visualization and hoping for the best! It's great and helpful reading your birth stories! The birth stories on my BMB make me sad. So many interventions and inductions, and "the baby got stuck" or it was taking too long so they needed a csection, even with women who wanted a "natural" birth. It makes me feel really lucky, and sad that not everyone has the same choices. I know some women make the choice to have an induction, or epidural, or csection, and I can't really judge them for that. Okay, I judge some of them a teeny tiny bit. Mobile smiley face here! I just wish some women weren't forced into making those kinds of decisions by interventionist doctors and hospital policies. Ahem. Steps off soapbox.

There's enough judgement already. Why not be happy with your knowledge and choices and leave it at that. When you read something on a board like this you don't hear the whole story and it's easy to jump to the conclusion that every c-section was unnecessary and every induction was not needed. In reality most times you are not able to really judge what was necessary or not because you don't have the whole story, you have a second hand account of what happened. Not all doctors are evil, induction pushing, c-section crazy, money hungry people. Some women might be very happy with their birth experiences even when they aren't med or intervention free.

sschwege · May 2013

RMama2012:
To be honest, what I judge is the uninformed mamas. It's one thing to say, I couldn't handle the contractions and I got an epi or I was so exhausted, I needed the epi. It's another to say "I walked in the door 4cm with easy contractions and then they started the pitocin" or "My blood pressure was so low after the epi, thank God I was in the hospital" or women who think the epi is medically necessary and other things like you referenced.

Goodluck with your natural birth. I had a natural hospital birth and my OB was great.

Not everyone has the time, money, resources or even desire to be 'informed' as you put it. In a perfect world, you shouldn't have to be. You should be able to find a doctor/mw who will give you the best personalized care available. Sadly that isn't reality. It isn't right to judge 'uninformed mama', if anyone should be judged it's the providers, and our country as a whole that has made doc/mws live in fear of being sued.

My MWs recommend induction on 41w6d. Kind of a random number, why do you suppose that's the magic day? Because they want to make sure that baby is out by 42w. Why? Fear of a lawsuit.

iris427 · May 2013

Sighhhhhhhh

April! · May 2013

oliversmommy32912:
You know who I judge? Women who look down on other women for their birth choices. Everyone deserves to have the birth they desire. Whether that be a hospital birth, a home birth, an epidural, an unmedicated birth, an induction, or letting your body go to 43 weeks. I do not wish to be judged for my decision to have an unmedicated birth and I'm sure these women would not want people judging them for their birth choices, especially by someone who has not actually given birth before. If you must judge someone please judge the medical providers that these patients trust to educate them and make the best decisions for them. They suck at it. And to PP, really? You say you judge the women who are not educated about their birth choices? They are the ones who should be judged least of all. They should be able to trust their medical providers to help them make the best decisions for their bodies and their babies. Unfortunately, they can't trust them at all. Instead perhaps we should try to pass along the information we know so that they do ask questions and challenge the system. If someone has not spoken with me about natural birth I would have probably had a hospital birth full of interventions with an OB that would have treated me as if I was just another number. I am the first person for generations on both sides of my family to plan and succeed in having an unmedicated birth. I never knew there was a benefit to doing it another way. Thank goodness someone educated me instead of judging me. Eta: Sorry for the harsh words OP. I know you mean well. Good luck on your upcoming birth. I hope you get exactly the birth you are hoping for!

I do understand what you're saying and completely agree that it is really easy for me to smugly sit here without ever having given birth before. I know that isn't fair of me, and really try to resist my urge to be judgmental! I'm mostly just sad that some women who really wanted to have an unmedicated birth were not supported by their providers, and that when their birth stories expressed some regret about not having the birth they wanted they got lots of snark from other posters. And I do realize that just reading a birth story doesn't mean I have all the information.

iris427 · May 2013

April!:
oliversmommy32912:
You know who I judge? Women who look down on other women for their birth choices. Everyone deserves to have the birth they desire. Whether that be a hospital birth, a home birth, an epidural, an unmedicated birth, an induction, or letting your body go to 43 weeks. I do not wish to be judged for my decision to have an unmedicated birth and I'm sure these women would not want people judging them for their birth choices, especially by someone who has not actually given birth before. If you must judge someone please judge the medical providers that these patients trust to educate them and make the best decisions for them. They suck at it. And to PP, really? You say you judge the women who are not educated about their birth choices? They are the ones who should be judged least of all. They should be able to trust their medical providers to help them make the best decisions for their bodies and their babies. Unfortunately, they can't trust them at all. Instead perhaps we should try to pass along the information we know so that they do ask questions and challenge the system. If someone has not spoken with me about natural birth I would have probably had a hospital birth full of interventions with an OB that would have treated me as if I was just another number. I am the first person for generations on both sides of my family to plan and succeed in having an unmedicated birth. I never knew there was a benefit to doing it another way. Thank goodness someone educated me instead of judging me. Eta: Sorry for the harsh words OP. I know you mean well. Good luck on your upcoming birth. I hope you get exactly the birth you are hoping for!
I do understand what you're saying and completely agree that it is really easy for me to smugly sit here without ever having given birth before. I know that isn't fair of me, and really try to resist my urge to be judgmental! I'm mostly just sad that some women who really wanted to have an unmedicated birth were not supported by their providers, and that when their birth stories expressed some regret about not having the birth they wanted they got lots of snark from other posters. And I do realize that just reading a birth story doesn't mean I have all the information.

This is much better than your OP. When you are feeling judgmental of other mothers, ask yourself if you are really just trying to compensate for your own fears and insecurities about motherhood by making other mothers out to be inferior to you when they really aren't.

Even if you've had 10 natural births, it still doesn't make it right for you to judge other women for the way they bring their babies into the world. There is no right or wrong way to give birth. But yes, it's especially unfair coming from someone who has never given birth herself. The truth is, I was a lot like you when I was pregnant with my first. Then things didn't go as planned, and I had exactly one of those births you criticize in your OP. So even the best laid birth plans don't always go well, and it's not the mother's fault or any kind of reflection on her. That may happen to you and it may not, but you need to remember there is an element of luck, that is out of our control, every time we give birth. Keep that in mind, and keep in mind also that not everyone on this board has had only perfect unmedicated deliveries. Some of the very women you are judging are here on this board.

nosoup4u · May 2013

RMama2012:
oliversmommy32912:

Yeah, I really do. Like I said, I could care less about choosing some of these options but there is no excuse for not educating yourself about birth. I only gave birth a year ago and when asked about it, I give my honest opinion about birth and most importantly "whatever you choose, just educate yourself beforehand."

However, I am referring to those who have done it without ever bothering to learn a single thing about it. It doesn't matter how many people you know who gave birth. You have a responsibility to yourself and your child to educate yourself. None of these people I know are illererate or don't have the internet. So I don't see an excuse for not researching a bit about it. If you buy a refridgerator, you would read reviews and ask around. Why wouldn't you do it about the most important event of your life???

I judge people who have internet access and still can't spell "refrigerator".

Hey, here's some "excuses" for not being educated: Mom doesn't know she can opt out of things because her provider doesn't tell her, mom has to work full-time and doesn't have time to research birth endlessly, mom doesn't have the money to buy books and take classes, or (and this is a big one) mom doesn't really care about having a med-free birth.

Ladies, please spend your time being pissed that the US maternity care is so royally messed up that our c-section rate is 30%, or that OBs consistently don't follow best practices during birth, rather than being mad your BMB doesn't love your planned water birth as much as you do.

April! · May 2013

iris427:
April!:
oliversmommy32912:
You know who I judge? Women who look down on other women for their birth choices. Everyone deserves to have the birth they desire. Whether that be a hospital birth, a home birth, an epidural, an unmedicated birth, an induction, or letting your body go to 43 weeks. I do not wish to be judged for my decision to have an unmedicated birth and I'm sure these women would not want people judging them for their birth choices, especially by someone who has not actually given birth before. If you must judge someone please judge the medical providers that these patients trust to educate them and make the best decisions for them. They suck at it. And to PP, really? You say you judge the women who are not educated about their birth choices? They are the ones who should be judged least of all. They should be able to trust their medical providers to help them make the best decisions for their bodies and their babies. Unfortunately, they can't trust them at all. Instead perhaps we should try to pass along the information we know so that they do ask questions and challenge the system. If someone has not spoken with me about natural birth I would have probably had a hospital birth full of interventions with an OB that would have treated me as if I was just another number. I am the first person for generations on both sides of my family to plan and succeed in having an unmedicated birth. I never knew there was a benefit to doing it another way. Thank goodness someone educated me instead of judging me. Eta: Sorry for the harsh words OP. I know you mean well. Good luck on your upcoming birth. I hope you get exactly the birth you are hoping for!
I do understand what you're saying and completely agree that it is really easy for me to smugly sit here without ever having given birth before. I know that isn't fair of me, and really try to resist my urge to be judgmental! I'm mostly just sad that some women who really wanted to have an unmedicated birth were not supported by their providers, and that when their birth stories expressed some regret about not having the birth they wanted they got lots of snark from other posters. And I do realize that just reading a birth story doesn't mean I have all the information.
This is much better than your OP. When you are feeling judgmental of other mothers, ask yourself if you are really just trying to compensate for your own fears and insecurities about motherhood by making other mothers out to be inferior to you when they really aren't.
Even if you've had 10 natural births, it still doesn't make it right for you to judge other women for the way they bring their babies into the world. There is no right or wrong way to give birth. But yes, it's especially unfair coming from someone who has never given birth herself. The truth is, I was a lot like you when I was pregnant with my first. Then things didn't go as planned, and I had exactly one of those births you criticize in your OP. So even the best laid birth plans don't always go well, and it's not the mother's fault or any kind of reflection on her. That may happen to you and it may not, but you need to remember there is an element of luck, that is out of our control, every time we give birth. Keep that in mind, and keep in mind also that not everyone on this board has had only perfect unmedicated deliveries. Some of the very women you are judging are here on this board.

Re-reading my first post it does come across much more judgmental than I meant to. That was absolutely not my intention and I hope I didn't offend anyone! I apologize if I did.

Thank you for your response.

oliversmommy32912 · May 2013

nosoup4u:
RMama2012:
oliversmommy32912:

I judge people who have internet access and still can't spell "refrigerator".

Hahaha when I read this I spit out my OJ. I spelled refrigerator with a D like seven times in my post. I swear to God I was mobile and my phone tried to correct to "refridgerator". I paused and thought, "Is that right? That's not right...but my phone wants to change it...refridgerator...fridge...maybe it's right?" and I was too lazy to go to Google. Damn phone fails me every time.

RMama2012 · May 2013

I guess I just don't get it and don't think I will. My mother had a real shitty upbringing and didn't go to school after the 5th/6th grade in the US because her immigrant parents didn't think women needed an education. Amazingly at 22, she borrowed books from friends and the library to learn what she could and labor, delivery, breastfeeding and newborns.

nosoup4u · May 2013

RMama2012:
I guess I just don't get it and don't think I will. My mother had a real shitty upbringing and didn't go to school after the 5th/6th grade in the US because her immigrant parents didn't think women needed an education. Amazingly at 22, she borrowed books from friends and the library to learn what she could and labor, delivery, breastfeeding and newborns.

That's because she cared about it. Some women don't. It's just like breastfeeding/attachment parenting/circumcision etc etc etc. Different strokes for different folks.

And no, not all women have the access or knowledge to seek out med-free birth. Your mom is the exception to the rule.

Hyaline · May 2013

RMama2012:
I guess I just don't get it and don't think I will. My mother had a real shitty upbringing and didn't go to school after the 5th/6th grade in the US because her immigrant parents didn't think women needed an education. Amazingly at 22, she borrowed books from friends and the library to learn what she could and labor, delivery, breastfeeding and newborns.

Outside of this convo entirely, your mom sounds awesome.

And I don't buy, at all, the "no access to resources" argument. It is 2013 in America. There are more public libraries than McDonald's (at least that was the stat a few years ago, and it made me happy!), and 80% of homes have internet access. If you want the info, you can get it. For free. The trouble is--many women don't realize that they want the info. Education is empowerment, and there are plenty of women who choose not to empower themselves because they either trust the medical system, or women who are, frankly, uninterested or even lazy (yes, these are the women I kinda do judge--you know it's there and you maybe should look into it but watching Survivor was more important so you blew it off and then had a crappy birth experience that you kvetch about. I'll be honest--that I judge).

Then there are plenty of other women who truly do not realize they have choices. And these women fall across all regions, ethnicities, income levels--I've seen wealthy, educated women depressed about what happened during their epiduraled, pitocined, eventually c-sectioned birth because they did not know they could ask their provider "why." Or say no.

Which is why talking about birth is important. Which is why judging women who didn't know they could say "no" doesn't help. And why insisting that we just blame the medical practice doesn't help either--it won't change until the average patient is challenging it, IMO. Until an OB can't expect a "compliant" patient when s/he suggests "standard" rather than evidence-based practices. Then we'll see change.

Sorry for the rantyness, I just really do think that if we spend more time educating and insisting on evidence-based practices, we could improve birth.

Ardmhs83 · May 2013

nosoup4u:
RMama2012:

oliversmommy32912:

Yeah, I really do. Like I said, I could care less about choosing some of these options but there is no excuse for not educating yourself about birth. I only gave birth a year ago and when asked about it, I give my honest opinion about birth and most importantly "whatever you choose, just educate yourself beforehand."

However, I am referring to those who have done it without ever bothering to learn a single thing about it. It doesn't matter how many people you know who gave birth. You have a responsibility to yourself and your child to educate yourself. None of these people I know are illererate or don't have the internet. So I don't see an excuse for not researching a bit about it. If you buy a refridgerator, you would read reviews and ask around. Why wouldn't you do it about the most important event of your life???

I judge people who have internet access and still can't spell "refrigerator".

Hey, here's some "excuses" for not being educated: Mom doesn't know she can opt out of things because her provider doesn't tell her, mom has to work full-time and doesn't have time to research birth endlessly, mom doesn't have the money to buy books and take classes, or (and this is a big one) mom doesn't really care about having a med-free birth.

Ladies, please spend your time being pissed that the US maternity care is so royally messed up that our c-section rate is 30%, or that OBs consistently don't follow best practices during birth, rather than being mad your BMB doesn't love your planned water birth as much as you do.

Very true! I didn't want a c-section and had everything planned for a great, natural hospital birth. Couldn't control the fact that DS was a complete breech with both feet at my bladder. Never turned...a version was too dangerous with this kind of breech and I AM NOT comfortable with a breech vaginal delivery.

My c-section was awful and still saddens me. I pray and hope to God I can naturally VBAC next time around. I did tons of research and I am also a college graduate...nothing was stopping this c-section. My DR was great and very informing, but didn't really have a choice.

RMama2012 · May 2013

Hyaline:

Then there are plenty of other women who truly do not realize they have choices. And these women fall across all regions, ethnicities, income levels--I've seen wealthy, educated women depressed about what happened during their epiduraled, pitocined, eventually c-sectioned birth because they did not know they could ask their provider "why." Or say no.

Which is why talking about birth is important. Which is why judging women who didn't know they could say "no" doesn't help. And why insisting that we just blame the medical practice doesn't help either--it won't change until the average patient is challenging it, IMO. Until an OB can't expect a "compliant" patient when s/he suggests "standard" rather than evidence-based practices. Then we'll see change.

Sorry for the rantyness, I just really do think that if we spend more time educating and insisting on evidence-based practices, we could improve birth.

I think we're mostly on the same page here. I'm just being honest about the whole "judgement" because when someone tells me some of these crappy delivery stories, I think "Why didnt you freaking ask or say no or ask why or read or do something so xyz didn't happen to you???" That's not the right thing to say in that moment but it doesn't change what's going through my head.

I agree about spreading knowledge and all that jazz but let's be honest, most women and even some men get defensive if you suggest something other than what happened to them. Everyday we have women on here talking about how no one in their family supports their natural birth plans and we all tell them, "just don't talk about it!" How do we spread the knowledge without offending?

TheTamedShrew · May 2013

So I have a sister-in-law who is having an induction for convenience, refuses to breastfeed because she simply "has no desire to do it", wants her epi at a certain time before even know what her contractions will be like, and jokes about having an elective c-section because she was told it was so much easier and she specifically doesn't want to feel anything. I have tried to tell her about different books I have read and to have an intelligent conversation with her about the benefits of natural birth and different options. Not that I try to jam it down her throat, I just simply talk about what I'M planning to do. She just kind of rolls her eyes at me, says "good luck", and laughs every time I talk about my natural birth. She has even convinced her husband that there is NO DIFFERENCE between breast feeding and formula.

I am not about to judge anyone based on their choice to have an epi or if something happens to where they can't breast feed or if they have to have an induction or c-section for medical reasons...

but, i am sorry, I judge her. a lot. I think it's disgusting and weird and ignorant. I make fun of her all the time to my husband and I'm probably a *** for doing it, but C'MON! How selfish can you possibly be, and your little one isn't even here yet! Do you care AT ALL about what may be best for your baby??

nuff said...

Ardmhs83 · May 2013

jo27key:

So I have a sister-in-law who is having an induction for convenience, refuses to breastfeed because she simply "has no desire to do it", wants her epi at a certain time before even know what her contractions will be like, and jokes about having an elective c-section because she was told it was so much easier and she specifically doesn't want to feel anything. I have tried to tell her about different books I have read and to have an intelligent conversation with her about the benefits of natural birth and different options. Not that I try to jam it down her throat, I just simply talk about what I'M planning to do. She just kind of rolls her eyes at me, says "good luck", and laughs every time I talk about my natural birth. She has even convinced her husband that there is NO DIFFERENCE between breast feeding and formula.

I am not about to judge anyone based on their choice to have an epi or if something happens to where they can't breast feed or if they have to have an induction or c-section for medical reasons...

but, i am sorry, I judge her. a lot. I think it's disgusting and weird and ignorant. I make fun of her all the time to my husband and I'm probably a *** for doing it, but C'MON! How selfish can you possibly be, and your little one isn't even here yet! Do you care AT ALL about what may be best for your baby??

nuff said...

HAHA! Doesn't want to feel anything...right! Easier...right! This does make me laugh. Having your insides ripped out and put back in sounds much better! 17 staples later, not being able to stand up for a day, and feeling like you are going to rip open when you do stand up...it lots of fun, let me tell ya! Trying to do the smallest things...sit up, change diapers, breastfeed, drive a car...it is all REALLY hard after a c-section recovery.

Ay ay ay...

kriskell · May 2013

Hyaline:
RMama2012:
I guess I just don't get it and don't think I will. My mother had a real shitty upbringing and didn't go to school after the 5th/6th grade in the US because her immigrant parents didn't think women needed an education. Amazingly at 22, she borrowed books from friends and the library to learn what she could and labor, delivery, breastfeeding and newborns.

Outside of this convo entirely, your mom sounds awesome.
And I don't buy, at all, the "no access to resources" argument. It is 2013 in America. There are more public libraries than McDonald's (at least that was the stat a few years ago, and it made me happy!), and 80% of homes have internet access. If you want the info, you can get it. For free. The trouble is--many women don't realize that they want the info. Education is empowerment, and there are plenty of women who choose not to empower themselves because they either trust the medical system, or women who are, frankly, uninterested or even lazy (yes, these are the women I kinda do judge--you know it's there and you maybe should look into it but watching Survivor was more important so you blew it off and then had a crappy birth experience that you kvetch about. I'll be honest--that I judge).
Then there are plenty of other women who truly do not realize they have choices. And these women fall across all regions, ethnicities, income levels--I've seen wealthy, educated women depressed about what happened during their epiduraled, pitocined, eventually c-sectioned birth because they did not know they could ask their provider "why." Or say no.
Which is why talking about birth is important. Which is why judging women who didn't know they could say "no" doesn't help. And why insisting that we just blame the medical practice doesn't help either--it won't change until the average patient is challenging it, IMO. Until an OB can't expect a "compliant" patient when s/he suggests "standard" rather than evidence-based practices. Then we'll see change.
Sorry for the rantyness, I just really do think that if we spend more time educating and insisting on evidence-based practices, we could improve birth.

Very well said! Yes

Hyaline · May 2013

RMama2012:
Hyaline:

Then there are plenty of other women who truly do not realize they have choices. And these women fall across all regions, ethnicities, income levels--I've seen wealthy, educated women depressed about what happened during their epiduraled, pitocined, eventually c-sectioned birth because they did not know they could ask their provider "why." Or say no.

Which is why talking about birth is important. Which is why judging women who didn't know they could say "no" doesn't help. And why insisting that we just blame the medical practice doesn't help either--it won't change until the average patient is challenging it, IMO. Until an OB can't expect a "compliant" patient when s/he suggests "standard" rather than evidence-based practices. Then we'll see change.

Sorry for the rantyness, I just really do think that if we spend more time educating and insisting on evidence-based practices, we could improve birth.

I think we're mostly on the same page here. I'm just being honest about the whole "judgement" because when someone tells me some of these crappy delivery stories, I think "Why didnt you freaking ask or say no or ask why or read or do something so xyz didn't happen to you???" That's not the right thing to say in that moment but it doesn't change what's going through my head.

I agree about spreading knowledge and all that jazz but let's be honest, most women and even some men get defensive if you suggest something other than what happened to them. Everyday we have women on here talking about how no one in their family supports their natural birth plans and we all tell them, "just don't talk about it!" How do we spread the knowledge without offending?

You know what, props to you for being honest. I see what you're saying--you're not running about being a judgy pants finding women whose births you don't agree with to feel superior about, just having a natural reaction that sounds more like frustration and, really, empathy ("I wish that hadn't happened because it could have been avoided") rather than preachypants jerkfaceness.

To me, I've never said "Just don't talk about it" period, but I would encourage women to not talk about if the negativity gets to them, especially before the birth. You have to be a good headspace heading into labor, and if negative comments bring you down, it's better to avoid them. Most women posting on here about unsupportive friends are sharing that it's discouraging to them, or that they want to "convince" them. Neither of those warrants talking to Negative Nancys IMO. I told people I was planning to avoid intervention, and that I was geekily into researching birth and interventions. If they asked, I let them know where I found my info. Negative people who just wanted to tell me about how I'd cave to the pain after two contractions? I didn't talk to them about it anymore or try to convince them.

nosoup4u · May 2013

jo27key:
but, i am sorry, I judge her. a lot. I think it's disgusting and weird and ignorant. I make fun of her all the time to my husband and I'm probably a *** for doing it, but C'MON! How selfish can you possibly be, and your little one isn't even here yet! Do you care AT ALL about what may be best for your baby??
nuff said...

I bet she hates her baby! Worst mother ever, amiright? So, soooo selfish of her! And chances are good, she probably thinks the same of you. Lord Almighty, you sound like a peach.

RMama2012:
Everyday we have women on here talking about how no one in their family supports their natural birth plans and we all tell them, "just don't talk about it!" How do we spread the knowledge without offending?

RMama, the reason people on this board tell others not to constantly talk about their wonderful med-free birth is because a decent amount of Natural Birthers are obnoxious, know-it-all arseholes. Sad, but true.

The way you spread knowledge without offending is by not being a jerk about the choices others make if they choose not to make the same ones as you.

RMama2012 · May 2013

nosoup4u:
[
RMama2012:
Everyday we have women on here talking about how no one in their family supports their natural birth plans and we all tell them, "just don't talk about it!" How do we spread the knowledge without offending?

RMama, the reason people on this board tell others not to constantly talk about their wonderful med-free birth is because a decent amount of Natural Birthers are obnoxious, know-it-all arseholes. Sad, but true.

The way you spread knowledge without offending is by not being a jerk about the choices others make if they choose not to make the same ones as you.

I disagree. I had plenty of people reccomend the EPI before they knew any of my plans. I didnt talk about my plans because if I was getting that kind of advice from mothers, my plans for a natural birth would not be received well. I once suggested why some women might want a home birth and started to get attacked so I dropped it.

I don't know who you're referring to in this second part but if you read above, I have no issue with choices that are different than mine. To each her own. I don't know what any furture births will be like for me. My issue is with the uninformed who then end up with crappy birth experiences.

BeachBabe22 · May 2013

I spent hours reading and researching natural births. I knew what I wanted my labor and delivery to be like and wrote out my birth plan. I did not want an epidural, pitocin, or a c-section. The plan was to labor at home as long as possible then have my natural birth with my midwife at the hospital. Well, things don't always go as planned. My water broke but my labor didn't start on it's own. I tried everything to get it started naturally but nothing was working. It was almost 24 hours after my water broke and I wasn't anymore dilated than before. I cried and cried at the thought of pitocin but in the end I knew it was the right decision. I did not get an epidural and I was able to labor how I wanted. Obviously, I did not want pitocin but things don't always work out the way you want them to. Yes, I did get pitocin but I did not have any pain medicine so I still consider it a natural birth.

There are plenty of people out there who do not research labor and delivery and go into the hospital without a plan. My sister did that and ended up with a c-section and complications afterwards. I don't judge her or other women and their birth choices but I don't agree with them either.

nosoup4u · May 2013

RMama2012:
I don't know who you're referring to in this second part but if you read above, I have no issue with choices that are different than mine. To each her own. I don't know what any furture births will be like for me. My issue is with the uninformed who then end up with crappy birth experiences.

But why are you mad at the women? Why not the system itself? I've said it before and I'll say it again: Women should be able to trust their providers. OBs and MWs are trained for years about birth - why shouldn't someone believe them when they recommend specific intervention? It's a just a bit depressing you expect all women to spend nine months of researching and learning about birth. Because according to your posts, they deserve what they get if they have a crappy birth.

Hyaline · May 2013

nosoup4u:
RMama2012:
I don't know who you're referring to in this second part but if you read above, I have no issue with choices that are different than mine. To each her own. I don't know what any furture births will be like for me. My issue is with the uninformed who then end up with crappy birth experiences.
But why are you mad at the women? Why not the system itself? I've said it before and I'll say it again: Women should be able to trust their providers. OBs and MWs are trained for years about birth - why shouldn't someone believe them when they recommend specific intervention? It's a just a bit depressing you expect all women to spend nine months of researching and learning about birth. Because according to your posts, they deserve what they get if they have a crappy birth.

But, at the same time--"crappy birth" means different things to different people. Some people actively choose c-sections. Some want to do everything possible to avoid them. Some want an epidural. Some don't want to be restricted in that way during labor. A provider can guide those decisions, but at the same time, a woman should expect to educate herself enough to know what she wants. Lacking education and information, something that sounds peachy can turn out to be exactly what she doesn't want (as witnessed by the many, many "I wanted an epidural but didn't realize what that meant..." stories we've all read). If she just nods her head "uh huh" to what her provider says, and then it turns out that it wasn't what she would have chosen--how was her provider supposed to know that? When a woman says "Oh, yeah, I want the epidural" or "Induction, please!" at what point is she responsible, and at what point is the doc? Tables turned, we get po'd at the docs who disregard our natural birth requests or argue with us.

And regardless--we live in a situation in which we feel we *can't* just trust a provider, as witnessed by many, many stories here, in real life, on other boards. You're asking for that to change, I get that--I want it to change, too. But how is it going to change? What pressure is going to bring about a different situation? Clearly we can't expect internal pressure from the medical community, if this is the situation now, so it's up to external pressure--us, the patients. Like I said, above, I firmly believe it won't change until no OB can assume his/her patient is going to be passive. Until no MW can expect complacency. That means a lot more informed, educated women standing up for themselves in terms of their births. It's not about blaming women for things that have happened in the past, but about taking what we know and moving forward.

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