Quick Question for the moms.

skii31 · March 2013

Hi,

I am a hubby and a new father... I also post on the dads and dads to be thread..

Like many of you on this thread, my wifey and I decided a home birth was the way to go. She gave birth to a 10lb baby with no real issues.

My question is this, I am part of the growing number of people that believe home birth and natural births are the way to go. Unless you are a high risk etc..

So I apparently did something that is kinda against the rules outside this thread. I tried to promote the natural birth, no meds way to a guy debating what to do because his wife wanted no meds...

I talked to a lot of women along with my wifey, while she was carrying, and they all said the same thing. they feel more "love" for their baby when they don't take meds during labor... I mentioned this as a reason as to not to take meds and naturally, I was then bombarded by women that took offense to that statement.

So I was curious, for you moms that have had both a non med birth and a med birth, is there really a difference with how you feel afterwards?? Logically it makes perfect sense that you would, but I was just curious what you had to say.

Thanks for your time and your comments, if you choose to comment. lol

tokenhoser · March 2013

It's a pretty dumb thing to say. Don't say it again.

Did I have a hormonal rush after the birth that was awesome? Yes. Did it make me love my baby more? More than what, exactly? Of course I loved my baby, but I think pretty much all new moms are in love.

You mean well, but stick to things that don't put other people down and imply that they don't feel enough love for their children. In most cases, a man should support his partner in her decisions about her birth and her body unless she's making choices that are really not safe.

skii31 · March 2013

oh absolutely I said it wrong, I am a math person and suck with grammar. I apologized to every mom that showed up on the dads board... told them that I suck with writing skills and grammar

I was only quoting what mothers have told me word for word. I didnt inject my own words. I know now that its a controversial thing to talk about, I was just trying to offer my knowledge to another dad asking a question.

again, I am not putting myself in the position, I personally dont feel love is quantifiable. It struck me a weird when I first heard a mother say that to me. they also, used the word "love" in a way that meant they had no other word to describe it.

It wasnt just one mom, I am talking 15-20 mothers that have had both. They all said the same thing. and I quote "I felt a deeper "love" for my baby I gave birth to naturally, than I did for the ones I did with meds"

I am not one to argue what that means. that is why I was asking this board.

skii31 · March 2013

2013mommy:
It is great that you're advocating for natural and home births but I think you need to skip the "more love" anecdote whether you heard it from 15 moms or 1500 moms. It is definitely a dumb thing to say. There are many reasons to go for a natural birth other than this so just stick with those.

lol, I got that. I am pretty sure I have made up with all those I offended...

Its just, what if its true? What if that is the single cause for most of the craziness and disconnect that "seems" to be growing in this world. At a time when a baby needs to feel most connected to its mother, the mother cant feel her legs, or is so doped up on pitocin, that the baby is getting a false sense of love.

After hearing all the moms who have had both, it makes perfect sense, if you substitute pitocin (synthetic, fake) hormone for oxytocin (real) would it not make sense that the overall experience of the birth would have a fake element to it.

Even more so that if you don't take pitocin, you have deeper feelings, deeper love (oxytocin is the love hormone) for your child. It would be more real than the synthetic feeling??

Is that too far fetched of an idea to believe? Sure its dumb thing to say, but letting people thing that what their doctor says is the only way to go is also just as dumb.

tokenhoser · March 2013

Birth is just a day. Parenting is a lifetime.

skii31 · March 2013

2013mommy I agree with what you say. My point originally, on the dads board, was to offer a different opinion based on my experiences. Sure I could go on with the hypothetical future situations, that really wasnt my intention. My intention was never to tell other mothers what was best for them. Nor tell them that they had a fake birth or anything like that. My point was to tell a dad - "hey I was told this by these people, I can see where they are coming from".

I came to this board to see if anyone here was going to say the same thing that I was told by multiple women. Its turning out not to be the case, for whatever reason.

tokenhoser · March 2013

It's one thing to talk about my own experience, and how I got the birth I wanted, and how I think it benefited me and my baby and I'm excited to do it again.

Theorizing on how all societies ills go back to pitocin, epidurals, and how babies are born... it's just not nice. It doesn't encourage natural birth, it just demonizes women who make different choices. Not to mention adoptive moms, moms with medical emergencies, moms with babies with medical emergencies...

Not all women who had natural births are nice about it. That doesn't make them right.

MrsP7309 · March 2013

I'm a FTM, so I have no personal experience. My mom, however, had 4 kids. 3 completely med free births, 1 pitocin aided labor. I'm pretty darn sure that my sister, brother2 and I are not "more loved" than brother1.

PepperBug · March 2013

High risk, natural birth hopeful, lurker here. I had an induction with pitocin and an epidural with my son. Even with the epidural, I was in so much pain from tearing/repair after the birth of my son that I felt detached from everyone for the first 48 hours. It was hard enough to just focus on trying to figure out how to use the bathroom let alone other people. The pitocin didn't give me any sort of "false love", nor did the epidural itself make me feel detached.

That being said, my now two and a half year old couldn't be more attached to his mommy, and I couldn't love him any more than I do. For us, we developed a tight bond through nursing, and I'm sure that other women who can't nurse find ways to bond with their babies too. I guess my point is that it is not as though moms can only bond with their babies during the first moments after birth.

I get really upset when I hear people express opinions like in the OP. I wanted a natural birth, but it wasn't in the cards for me with my son. Nevertheless, he's a very happy, healthy, well adjusted toddler, and I can't imagine that I love him any less than I would have had I been able to have a natural birth. The implication that I would love him more if I had been able to have a natural birth is really hurtful to hear.

pdilly2b · March 2013

skii31:
2013mommy:
It is great that you're advocating for natural and home births but I think you need to skip the "more love" anecdote whether you heard it from 15 moms or 1500 moms. It is definitely a dumb thing to say. There are many reasons to go for a natural birth other than this so just stick with those.
lol, I got that. I am pretty sure I have made up with all those I offended...
Its just, what if its true? What if that is the single cause for most of the craziness and disconnect that "seems" to be growing in this world. At a time when a baby needs to feel most connected to its mother, the mother cant feel her legs, or is so doped up on pitocin, that the baby is getting a false sense of love.
After hearing all the moms who have had both, it makes perfect sense, if you substitute pitocin (synthetic, fake) hormone for oxytocin (real) would it not make sense that the overall experience of the birth would have a fake element to it.
Even more so that if you don't take pitocin, you have deeper feelings, deeper love (oxytocin is the love hormone) for your child. It would be more real than the synthetic feeling??
Is that too far fetched of an idea to believe? Sure its dumb thing to say, but letting people thing that what their doctor says is the only way to go is also just as dumb.

By this logic, then dads can't bond with their children as well as moms, let alone people who have kids via surrogacy or adoption. I think it's fair to say that there is a "high" associated with med free childbirth. I felt that and it was awesome. To me, that high is one reason that I want to do it again. And it may have made breastfeeding more easy to establish. And I felt love for my baby which it perhaps helped. But that's not to say that I wouldn't have gotten to the same place love-wise or breastfeeding-wise without going med free. You're taking a big leap in going from the "high" to the "love" especially to the "downstream consequences" relative to society.

skii31 · March 2013

tokenhoser:
It's one thing to talk about my own experience, and how I got the birth I wanted, and how I think it benefited me and my baby and I'm excited to do it again.
Theorizing on how all societies ills go back to pitocin, epidurals, and how babies are born... it's just not nice. It doesn't encourage natural birth, it just demonizes women who make different choices. Not to mention adoptive moms, moms with medical emergencies, moms with babies with medical emergencies...
Not all women who had natural births are nice about it. That doesn't make them right.

I never meant to to theorize, I did it cause it crossed my mind at the moment. I shouldn't have given this thread a reason to not focus on my question. For that I apologize.

This was an honest question to see if more mothers would comment on what I was told. A chance to further research a question that I had.

Thank you ladies for your time.

skii31 · March 2013

@philly2b - dads cant bond with women the same way mothers can. I am just being as honest as I possibly can. My sons bond with my wifey is something I will never have.

Instead, I get my own type of bonding that I will love and cherish till the day I die.

I am not saying anything is good or bad. everyone is different. my question was specifically asked to mothers who had both a non med and a med birth.

this does not relate to anything 10 -15 years down the line, in fact, the mothers that told me this said the "disconnect" with babies that were med born completely disappeared after the 1st to 2nd month.

annabelle.27 · March 2013

Not really. I had a csection with my first and a homebirth with my second. There was no difference to speak of. As the father, did you feel unable to love your child without having birthed it naturally?

I totally agree with whoever said that I personally would not take too kindly to a man critiquing my birth choices. It is great that you support your partner, but other women's choices are none of your business.

pdilly2b · March 2013

skii31:
@philly2b - dads cant bond with women the same way mothers can. I am just being as honest as I possibly can. My sons bond with my wifey is something I will never have.
Instead, I get my own type of bonding that I will love and cherish till the day I die.
I am not saying anything is good or bad. everyone is different. my question was specifically asked to mothers who had both a non med and a med birth.
this does not relate to anything 10 -15 years down the line, in fact, the mothers that told me this said the "disconnect" with babies that were med born completely disappeared after the 1st to 2nd month.

I disagree with you. I think dads and moms can bond differently with their babies, but don't think that has anything to do with the birth process. I attribute my bond with DS being different that DH's bond with him more with breastfeeding than anything else but in no way do I think my love for DS is any more or less than DH's love for him.

Basically, if you look at all of these responses, most of us are trying to tell you that, not only did you say something ineloquently, what you believe is not what we have experienced.

You both believe something that we think is incorrect and you have managed to find a very offensive way of saying it.

skii31 · March 2013

I never argued love. I asked a simple question. is there a difference?

I was personally told by 15 women that there is. Now I don't have a way to communicate with those women. So I was asking this board if what I was told was correct. Asking if someone here can relate.

If you took offense to this, I apologize. There was nothing offensive about what I asked. Maybe with what people told me sure, but then I am just the messenger.

To reiterate, I repeated what was told to me, to the dads board. I came here to see if there was some validation. That is all. I said, I could see how what they said would be true. but I never claimed to have first hand experience.

tokenhoser · March 2013

So... where were these 15 women? Why 15? Not 14? Not 16? Why were they ranting about their extreme love?

This is just such a bizarre thread.

skii31 · March 2013

Most of them from my home birth classes I took with my wifey. 2 were friends and one was from my work.

I never said extreme love. Now you are just making things up.

skii31 · March 2013

@NCC74656, thank you. that is all I was looking for.

LaurelBee · March 2013

skii31:
I never argued love. I asked a simple question. is there a difference?
I was personally told by 15 women that there is. Now I don't have a way to communicate with those women. So I was asking this board if what I was told was correct. Asking if someone here can relate.
If you took offense to this, I apologize. There was nothing offensive about what I asked. Maybe with what people told me sure, but then I am just the messenger.
To reiterate, I repeated what was told to me, to the dads board. I came here to see if there was some validation. That is all. I said, I could see how what they said would be true. but I never claimed to have first hand experience.

So these women had both medicated and non medicated births and they said their love was stronger for the baby who was born "naturally?" I can't fathom a mother saying she felt more bonded to one child vs another bc of the way he/she was birthed... Yikes.

pdilly2b · March 2013

skii31:
I never argued love. I asked a simple question. is there a difference?
I was personally told by 15 women that there is. Now I don't have a way to communicate with those women. So I was asking this board if what I was told was correct. Asking if someone here can relate.
If you took offense to this, I apologize. There was nothing offensive about what I asked. Maybe with what people told me sure, but then I am just the messenger.
To reiterate, I repeated what was told to me, to the dads board. I came here to see if there was some validation. That is all. I said, I could see how what they said would be true. but I never claimed to have first hand experience.

Apparently you don't think the rest of us can read.

Actually, you did say love - in your original post ("they feel more "love" for their baby when they don't take meds during labor") and in your one pontificating on the ills of society ("the baby is getting a false sense of love", "Even more so that if you don't take pitocin, you have deeper feelings, deeper love (oxytocin is the love hormone) for your child." )

You were both asking and arguing and then projecting and whining that we're not understanding you. We understand. It's you that doesn't understand.

I also don't buy that a mother (let alone 15 mothers that you coincidently ran into) would say she loved one child more or was bonded to one chid more based on the way they were born. She may have enjoyed one birth experience more, but on the bond/love front - no way.

iris427 · March 2013

LaurelBee:
skii31:
I never argued love. I asked a simple question. is there a difference?
I was personally told by 15 women that there is. Now I don't have a way to communicate with those women. So I was asking this board if what I was told was correct. Asking if someone here can relate.
If you took offense to this, I apologize. There was nothing offensive about what I asked. Maybe with what people told me sure, but then I am just the messenger.
 To reiterate, I repeated what was told to me, to the dads board. I came here to see if there was some validation. That is all. I said, I could see how what they said would be true. but I never claimed to have first hand experience.
So these women had both medicated and non medicated births and they said their love was stronger for the baby who was born "naturally?" I can't fathom a mother saying she felt more bonded to one child vs another bc of the way he/she was birthed... Yikes.  

I think childbirth can affect how quickly you bond with a newborn. I'm not talking in terms of medicated vs unmedicated, but rather how the mother is affectedby her experience. My first delivery was long and very hard and by the time baby was out, I was feeling pretty shellshocked. It was hard to bond initially because I was just emotionally and physically spent. My second birth was easy and wonderful and I had a lot more emotional reserves left to bond with my baby afterward.

But I don't think those differences lasted longterm. The idea that medfree moms love their children more is garbage.

kriskell · March 2013

I'm pregnant with my first so I can't speak from experience, but I do think there's some overreaction going on here. First of all, I think it's great that OP came here (as a man) to inquire about something he's genuinely interested in, and that he's taken such an active and intentional role in his wife's birthing decisions. Secondly, there is a hormone that creates "love" feelings during and after labor - oxytocin. Epidurals can interfere with the release of that hormone. I don't think OP meant to imply that women who chose to have epis love their children any less, he was just curious if other women have experienced the same thing he's heard anecdotally.

tokenhoser · March 2013

OP got in a fight on another board by saying something stupid and came here hoping we'd back him up.

sschwege · March 2013

iris427:
LaurelBee:
skii31:
I never argued love. I asked a simple question. is there a difference?
I was personally told by 15 women that there is. Now I don't have a way to communicate with those women. So I was asking this board if what I was told was correct. Asking if someone here can relate.
If you took offense to this, I apologize. There was nothing offensive about what I asked. Maybe with what people told me sure, but then I am just the messenger.
To reiterate, I repeated what was told to me, to the dads board. I came here to see if there was some validation. That is all. I said, I could see how what they said would be true. but I never claimed to have first hand experience.
So these women had both medicated and non medicated births and they said their love was stronger for the baby who was born "naturally?" I can't fathom a mother saying she felt more bonded to one child vs another bc of the way he/she was birthed... Yikes.
I think childbirth can affect how quickly you bond with a newborn. I'm not talking in terms of medicated vs unmedicated, but rather how the mother is affectedby her experience. My first delivery was long and very hard and by the time baby was out, I was feeling pretty shellshocked. It was hard to bond initially because I was just emotionally and physically spent. My second birth was easy and wonderful and I had a lot more emotional reserves left to bond with my baby afterward. But I don't think those differences lasted longterm. The idea that medfree moms love their children more is garbage.

I agree I think the type of birth you have can impact how quickly you bond.

With DD I got to hold her for a few minutes, they weren't happy with her breathing, so they left her on the warmer for an hour. Then by the time I could hold her, I was so uncomfortable from where I tore, that I didn't want to hold her for long.

With DS I got to hold him for 3 or so minutes, they again weren't happy with his breathing and took him to the Special Care Nursery where he stayed for a day and a half.

I never experienced that instant love so many women talk about and I had two med-free births.

sschwege · March 2013

And to address what you said about feeling more 'love' if you go med-free and how, "logically it makes perfect sense that you would". I think I could argue just the opposite. I was so tired and hurting after DD was born that I wonder if it would have been easier to bond had I not been so exhausted. I obviously don't regret my decision to go med-free as I did it again with DS, but I'm just trying to show you the flip side of the argument.

skii31 · March 2013

I didn't come here looking for back up. I came here for information. I am not whining about anything either. This was not to start a debate.

This was comparing information I was told before my son was born, to what you guys had to say. Because this is a forum to do this very type of thing.

I quoted love in my original question because the mothers I talked to used the word "love" almost as if they had no other word to describe it.

I personally don't believe you can quantify love. but that is the word they used so that is the word I shared with you. I also don't believe one mother can love one child more or less than another. In the other thread somebody refered too, I also used another word that these mothers have used trying to describe it. It was "connection". Take that for what you will. I didnt make this up, I am just trying to understand it.

LaurelBee · March 2013

sschwege:
iris427:
LaurelBee:
skii31:
I never argued love. I asked a simple question. is there a difference?
I was personally told by 15 women that there is. Now I don't have a way to communicate with those women. So I was asking this board if what I was told was correct. Asking if someone here can relate.
If you took offense to this, I apologize. There was nothing offensive about what I asked. Maybe with what people told me sure, but then I am just the messenger.
To reiterate, I repeated what was told to me, to the dads board. I came here to see if there was some validation. That is all. I said, I could see how what they said would be true. but I never claimed to have first hand experience.
So these women had both medicated and non medicated births and they said their love was stronger for the baby who was born "naturally?" I can't fathom a mother saying she felt more bonded to one child vs another bc of the way he/she was birthed... Yikes.
I think childbirth can affect how quickly you bond with a newborn. I'm not talking in terms of medicated vs unmedicated, but rather how the mother is affectedby her experience. My first delivery was long and very hard and by the time baby was out, I was feeling pretty shellshocked. It was hard to bond initially because I was just emotionally and physically spent. My second birth was easy and wonderful and I had a lot more emotional reserves left to bond with my baby afterward. But I don't think those differences lasted longterm. The idea that medfree moms love their children more is garbage.
I agree I think the type of birth you have can impact how quickly you bond.
With DD I got to hold her for a few minutes, they weren't happy with her breathing, so they left her on the warmer for an hour. Then by the time I could hold her, I was so uncomfortable from where I tore, that I didn't want to hold her for long.
With DS I got to hold him for 3 or so minutes, they again weren't happy with his breathing and took him to the Special Care Nursery where he stayed for a day and a half.
I never experienced that instant love so many women talk about and I had two med-free births.

I get your point. I used the word "bonded" only to try not to over use the word love. I guess I felt less bonded with DD, who was born at home, bc her birth was so incredibly fast. It took a while for my mind to catch up to what my body had just been through.

ridesbuttons · March 2013

I really don't have any words. I'm glad your 'wifey' and you are on the same page.

I had both: one with an epi and one med-free. I felt the rush of joy and love the same. The.same.

You earned whatever wrath you got from telling people that mothers who go med-free feel more love.

Consider yourself the J. Evans Pritchard of home birth.

luvmyducks · March 2013

I've had only one birth and it was pretty much all natural. But I can't imagine that I would love my DD less if I had meds. Or not feel as much love for her after. Sorry--doesn't make sense to me.

ETA: It also really rubs me the wrong way when people are being pushy with their beliefs. I'm obviously a fan of natural birth, but that doesn't mean I want to listen to someone telling me it is better. Each pg and each mother is different. Natural birth isn't for everyone. It's not my place to tell someone what they should and shouldn't do with their birth experience.

Nechie122 · March 2013

A few thoughts.

1. I'm having a hard time believing the OP found 15 women who had both a med free birth AND a medicated birth and ALL said they loved the child from the med free delivery more. To me, it sounds like women making the sort of empty, cliched comments that people just say. I have yet to read ANY birth story where a mom didn't gush about how "over the moon" she is about her "perfect" baby.

2. Which brings me to ... it's totally normal not to feel an immediate emotional connection to your baby no matter how you gave birth. I had as natural a birth as you can imagine, not even so much as IV fluids or a postpartum shot of Pitocin to stop the bleeding. The birth of my dreams. And yet ... it took me a good four months to bond with my baby. Didn't have PPD, breastfed exclusively, and I distinctly remember the day when it hit me: hey, I LOVE this kid. Four. months.

3. The use of the term "wifey" is really off putting. I don't care what someone uses in private, but there's something really odd about the use of such a diminutive term when you're trying to have a serious conversation. You know, as opposed to trolling.

kathleen02 · March 2013

Do you mean that the endorphins were stronger for a natural/med-free birth vs. a medicated birth? Perhaps for some but I had a planned out of hospital birth and a hospital transfer during labor and when I finally delivered my son I still had a big old rush of endorphins. He was alert (to my surprise because I was taught in my natural birth classes that an epidural can cause a sleepy baby) and started nursing immediately. Love is such an odd word to use in your question. That emotion and the strength of it can vary from person to person. I think the women you spoke with need to tone down the incense to think clearer.

aylafsu88 · March 2013

intheflowers:
Parents will feel love for their babies whether the take meds or not. Bonding begins at birth but it is a lifelong process. Medfree moms may get an different afterbirth high but i feel that is beside the point. You may mean well, but yah, your statement sounds offensive. I also would not appreciate hearing these comments from a man. You've supported your wife, and that's great. Want to endorse homebirth and share your experiences? Also great. Men sitting around debating women's choices? Maynot go over too well.

I have to agree. I support natural birth but I am a bigger supporter of a womens right to choose how she birth her baby. You may mean well but it is condescending to tell a women that she does not love her baby as much as she could because she took meds during birth.

Unknown · March 2013

Ok, not going to touch the whole "love hormone" issue with a ten foot pole. But... I do have related burning question. Wondering if any 2nd, 3rd, 4th timer medfree moms can help me with this: I had an amazing rush for my first med free birth. The second, the doctor gave me pitocin right at delivery in case of hemorrage. I felt like it kind of messed with my high. Not 100 percent, I still had a rush but not as much as the first time. Could that have been in my head? Anyone else have this experience? My new OB says he will only give me the pitocin after the placenta is delivered. Not sure when the other guy gave it to me... I think it was before that. Read surprise told me about it after the fact meds= not my doctor anymore!!

HK2mom4 · March 2013

This one is a loaded scenario in question form ? IMO; I believe this is probably one of interpretation - what seems to have been where he was lead to believe that any woman who gives birth in a naturally med-free environment is more apt to ?love? her newborn more deeply - as opposed to the woman who delivers while under medical intervention of some sort.

Well I?m here to tell you - that after having had 4 births (so far) under my belt in both scenarios with my first in that of a total medicated state; with the next three without any medication I can truly say ? it made/makes absolutely NO difference in the way you love, bond, care for or anything else after giving birth. The only possible thing I can think of - is that if you?ve had a long, argues labor then you could be so tired, exhausted, that you would really just want some rest or sleep afterwards.

For those women he spoke of (if they had both) probably only remember they had a good birthing experience without medication which made them somewhat more alert than when medicated. Therefore making them say ?

For the record a mother?s love is - everlasting, enduring, never ending, nor unconditional - it starts at the moment of conception and ends only at death. Also no mother loves any one child more than another - ever.

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