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Toddlers: 24 Months+
NewlyWeds13
member
Limits/discipline vs enjoying each other & fun... LONG
NewlyWeds13
member
I am having a really hard time reconciling how to deal with my 34 month old.
We have been pretty consistent with counting and putting him in timeouts when he does not listen, but they really do nothing. He will just go back to not listening as soon as he is out of timeouts. Taking his favorite things away from him works better-- but I don't like to use this too often as I am 1) affraid it will lose its effect 2) I want to have some fun/enjoyment with my toddler
there are sometimes entire weekends where all we do is redirect behavior, go in a series of timeouts, take things away, ask him to do things for rewards which he 80% of the time rejects, and then start over the next day. While I am doing this all very according to the books (like 123 magic) and I am spending "quality" time with him, reading, 1:1 playing... it is not very enjoyable for my husband or I and I doubt him.
I am not sure if it is me and my husband who are reacting differently than most parents (ie- have unrealistic expectations) or if our son is just more headstrong than others.
here is a specific example of what I mean.
We ask him to use a low voice not to wake up his sister sleeping. He asks why. we say-- because she needs to sleep and that is the rule. He laughs and says... I not follow your rule and then screams. We say, that is a 1, he says no and talks quietly for about 30 seconds, then he starts talking super loud, we say thats a 2, then he gets quiet again, then loud 1 minute later, then we say that is a timeout. He goes into his 2 minute timeout where he sits in there and whines the entire time. I want to talk loud. I don't care if I wake up sissy. Mommy/Daddy why do I have to talk soft. I want to talk loud. I make the rules, you follow them... then laughs. No you make rules and I don't follow and go in timeout. Then he comes out... and the cycle starts again. we have also tried redirection, playing other games, taking things away, offering a sticker chart for good behavior with toys attached to certain # of stickers. The only thing he responds to is taking his 2 toys that he likes away.
Example 2-- we are at a grocery store. He whines about being in the cart. I warn him and say we are leaving if he does again, he claps and says yes... I don't want to be here, i want to be at home playing. I know he knows that I need to shop and he hates it anyways so it is not really a punishment for us to leave. it punishes me. I have other times stayed in teh store and forced him to sit... I keep my cool, say I am sorry it disappoints you and you can have a tantrum, but you must sit and I am not relenting and then I calmly let him whine and throw a tantrum, while I gently hold him in teh cart and tell him that I love him, but this is the rule and he must follow it. By the end of just a shopping experience-- I want to pass out from emotional fatigue.
I am kind of at a loss for how to discipline him more effectively and how to make sure that we are enjoying each other as a family. We love our son more than anything and will try just about any discipline method, but I just feel like this is too hard and it should not feel like this each and every day.
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Re: Limits/discipline vs enjoying each other & fun... LONG
If you're not a fan of time outs and punishments why not try some books like Unconditional Parenting and Connection Parenting. CP is a pretty quick, easy read but I find that UP has a lot of of information regarding normal toddler behavior and why they behave like they do.
My opinions on your examples? In situation 1 it sounds like he's acting out because of the little sister. I'm sure things have changed beyond his control and he's trying to exert some control back into his life. Toddlers love to be in control.
Could you try something like the PP mentioned, like a white noise machine? That way the whole talking quietly becomes a non issue. I don't think toddlers have great voice volume control; I constantly have to remind DD to be quiet in church. She's not purposely being naughty, she's just loud.
Or what if you tried making whispering into some sort of game?
In situation 2 it kind of sounds like you're setting yourself up for failure. If you don't want to leave the store then don't make that a threat. Bring a snack? A toy he doesn't get elsewhere? Allow him to pick out a treat if he behaves? (But outline what behaves means.)
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Right now it sounds like you are turning everything into a power struggle - and that's no fun for anyone! This is why I'm not a fan of time outs, etc.
For example 1 - He's almost 3. A rule about "being quiet" makes no sense in his world - loud is fun! The logic that he will wake his sister just isn't going to click for him cognitively. Sending him to time out for it sets up a power struggle where he's going to keep pressing because he is getting attention for the misbehavior. What I would try is making it a game - "hey I bet you can't whisper as quietly as I can!" or giving him an outlet where he can yell (which is harmless behavior in the right circumstances) - "let's go outside and get our loud out and then we can play inside" - the importance of choice can not be over-emphasized. Of course there are boundaries but within boundaries there is room to give him some choice - and the "control" it's important for him to have.
For 2..why does he have to be in the cart? Give him the choice of walking beside you and helping put things in the cart or riding in the cart. Make shopping fun where he gets to help out with things. I mean I wouldn't want to just sit in the cart either! Yes, it may take some time for him to learn the "right" way to walk but if you channel his energy into helping you, he will get the hang of it.
I really like Playful Parenting if you are looking for something to read. Discipline is about leadership, not punishment. IMO things like time outs, threats, etc. are punishment for parents as much as children (in terms of being unpleasant). There are other ways to teach desired behavior.
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He purposely screams during baby's nap? I'd grab his hands tightly, get down to his level, look him in the eye and say "no, that is not okay." He's old enough to understand.
Also, don't offer consequences that you can't follow through with...ie, leaving the store when you HAVE to shop.
This. All of the examples. I don't have a 3 yo yet, and I'm terrified because I've heard 3 is worse than 2, but I would really try and minimize the power struggles. I always thought that I would be a strict/firm parent, but I am just realizing that it doesn't work well for us/with our strong willed daughter. My DH tends to be more on the yell, punish side, so I see the difference and I much prefer a lighthearted approach (except for brightlines like hitting).
For example, last night DD wanted to continue playing with bubble wrap when she had plenty of warnings that it was almost bedtime and that she needed to clean up. DH's solution was to put the bubble wrap away and make her go sit in 'time out' for not listening to his instruction to clean up. Yeah that is just a horrible power struggle and he was going to have to fight her on every toy to get her to clean up. So, I made it a game - 'you need to run across the bubble wrap everytime you put a toy away'. She cleaned up every single toy while laughing and ran off to bed. The toys were cleaned up, she was in bed, and everyone was happy.
Just to clarify-- I do always follow through if I say a consequence. So for instance on shopping trips, I used to say, or we will leave and we always did. After a few months, I stopped saying this and instead started letting him throw a tandrum.
I never raise my voice. I am calm and very clear. I don't generally "explain things" as I know that is a no-no according to 1 2 3. I do tell him once the explaination (which I guess I shoudl not)... but it does not work.
My son started with this sort of behavior around 20 months... so it has been a long time. We have tried different approaches (all for a few months at a time).
I like the game approach and have tried it... here is how it went with my son however... I tried to tell him we were going to play a game where every time he whispered we would get to dunk the ball into the hoop (he loves basketball). He asked why. Why do I want to play that. I want to play scream game, every time I scream I get to jump off the couch (something else I don't really like him to do BTW). my DH and I started to play the whisper game and he got really mad and started screaming saying I want my ball. I want my ball. Something else. He is defiant and stubborn. He also reasons much better than I would ever imagine a not quite 3 year old can (or maybe he fools me and I just think he does). But it seems like he actually tries to defy outwardly and knows exactly what we want and choses to do the opposite.
Maybe I just need to allow him to run wild and be more lenient-- the problem is that this makes me personally so uncomfortable (being judged by others in public) and just runs counter to how I was raised and how I hoped to raise my kids.
DH and I regularly talk about how we both feel like parenting failures... eventhough we put so much time into it and try our hardest. We are older parents (I am 43, DH is 46) and both of us have pretty demanding jobs so we had kids later in life. Sometimes I think I am just too old for this:)
we have a white noise machine and we turn it up and it does not work to drown out his voice... it carries.
At stores-- beleive me I have tried all of this. I have a diaper bag filled with snacks, treats, games, toys. We tried the you can pick somethng out if you behave (sit in cart, don't scream or whine) and he just says... I don't want anything here, something else. I want to walk. If I let him walk, he does not listen and it gets even worse.
We went to a love and logic class and that approach also does not really work for him so I did not just try 1 2 3 magic and that was it. I guess I have to keep reading and try other approaches.
Again, I don't have a 3 yo yet, but I do find that when I get desperate and try different things it does not turn out well. Like I said earlier, it seems to help if I try and avoid power struggles, but if I can't I set it up so that I can win.
With the indoor voice - is actually waking your LO up? We work on indoor and library voice, but she is two and likes to scream and be loud and doesn't have the impulse control yet to always be quiet. Fortunately, it does not wake my DS up, so while I always address it I don't expect 100% compliance. If it is waking her up could you play in an different part of the house? Take the monitor and go outside?
With the cart, if he wants to walk I would let him start our walking and ask him to help etc. the second that he misbehaves or warnings I guess if you are doing 123 magic, I would put him in the cart, end of discussion. I would explain how it is going to work prior to going into the store. You will likely have a screaming kid and be 'that mom' for a few trips, but hopefully it won't take that long for him to realize that this is now the way it is.
I do understand how frustrating all of this is though, because we are going through a lets hit mommy and chuck toys when we are upset phase. I just tell myself that there is no magic solution and to just keep being consistent.
Here's just my quick opinion. I don't read parenting books I hate them. I don't have any time to be reading a parenting book. (This doesn't mean I have all the answers but I don't think I need anyone telling me how to parent). I'm always open to suggestions though on how to help with behavioral issues.
So, that said I think you're giving your child too many choices and too much say. I agree w/a PP above that said you're making everything into a struggle.
I would recommend to toss the books and just play it by ear and see what works best. Maybe distracting him? What about bringing a tablet or phone along for him to play with while in the cart? Letting him pick out food? stuff like that?
I also agree that telling your child you're leaving the store if he acts up is a bad idea.
My toddler sometimes whispers when the baby is asleep but unfortunately this is why I had to take them out of the same room. She loves to talk and it's very hard (if not impossible) to make a toddler be quiet. So instead I have the white noise machine and I put music in the toddler's room and I close both their doors.
So I guess part of my recommendations are that you can't expect a toddler to whisper instead make it so they don't need to whisper by moving them away from the baby?
Sorry this response is all over the place but I had to take 2 calls at work and kept having to pick up the response several minutes later.
Good luck but don't beat yourself up over how your toddler acts, we've all been there!
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I'd probably put him in a timeout every single time he acts out. Walk away leave him alone then make him apologize after three minutes. Stay super consistent.
Plan a special activity for the two of you. Have fun! Even if it's taking goofy pictures together and looking at them.
Make shopping fun. Relax. Bring snacks....or let him pick out something at the store. I keep mine in the cart too. Sometimes I do let him climb in the back.
Lots of good advice here and something I learned when going through similar things around that age was that everyone's kids are different, respond to different things & there is only so much that ppl on here or in parenting books can tell you to help/ "solve" the problem...but it is good to vent sometimes! Just don't let it make you feel bad if all the things that apparently work so well for others don't work at your house.
My advice is not going to be terribly exciting but here it is--- you have to wait for the phase to be over..... It sucks. I am sorry. I have twins & about 30 months- 38 months was absolutely horrible. I felt like I never enjoyed any time w/ them, it was constant struggles, if one wasn't fighting me on something the other was and some awesome days, both. But, as they approach 3 1/2 it really did get better, there is a big difference at my house these days. I tried to be as consistent as I could, I tried to set rules, I used sticker charts w/ some success & some failure, I tried to provide appropriate consequences...it's their nature to test you and fight for independence.
Regarding the talking, I am a little confused about that too- is he literally yelling loudly on purpose & near baby's room? Is he actually waking baby up? If not I don't see a big deal here...babies will sleep through things frequently so unless he's standing outside the door & screaming on purpose, I think I'd relent & try to find middle ground. Or have him watch TV if he likes it during that time or something.
At the store, I suspect that letting him walk won't go well so I think I'd definitely bring a distraction- ipad or some sort of handheld game, drawing pad, water wow pad, little magna doodle, etc. Snacks for sure. Give him choices before you go in to give him a little control?
Also, I don't think I saw this mentioned but maybe you did, I know you mentioned 123 magic & it is in there- timers are a savior in our house. My son in particular is terrible w/ transitions, leaving one place to go to another, cleaning up (OMG this one is so bad, I admittedly have barely tackled it), etc. I use a kitchen timer at home, I have a watch with a timer and I use the timer on my phone. They know very well that "when the timer says beep beep" it is time to do whatever. Around 3 yrs old I started using them a lot more. Maybe you could practice playing a little more quietly until the timer beeps (but make it realistic, like small increments at first), or tell him he has to ride in the cart til it beeps, then can walk, then has to ride again, etc.
GL. It stinks
It sounds like you have way to many battles going on at once.
Like people said, with the shopping one- he can walk along side or he can ride in the cart. His choice. But if he walks along side, give him a job to do "okay now we are looking for the bread, do you see the bread? Help me find the bread". He gets one warning for bad behavior and if it doesn't stop, in the cart he goes. No questions asked.
Consequences should be handled very matter o fact and business like. THis is what happened, so here is the consequence.
Okay, no moving onto the stuff at home. YOu said you do time outs, and also rewards, and also take away items. Well that's a lot of systems to manage and keep consistent. I personally would take out the reward one for now. He shouldn't get a reward for doing normal every day things. "Oh goodie you ate your peas, now here is your reward". A reward should be an incentive that his given as something being earned. A chore/ responsibility chart with a reward a the end of the week is different, but just offering rewards for basic behavior seems silly.
As far as time outs go- I typically do this. Give a warning for the behavior, and then if it doesn't stop, do the time out. "You need to stop jumping on the couch or I will have to put you in time out. Okay, you didn't stop jumping so now you are going in time out". Once again, handled in a very matter o fact business tone. Put him in time out and walk away. (For us, we have a baby gate at the door of the guest room, and that is where his time out is- because it makes him stay there and there is nothing he can get into). If he gets up from his time out, you say nothing, you put him back in time out and walk away. you do this over and over again until he stays. Yes it is going to suck, but he needs to know you mean business and that you are going to stay consistent. When time out is over, you say "you were in time out because you were jumping on the couch. Are we supposed to jump on the couch? What do we do with the couch? okay good now go and show me".
As for the little sister sleeping thing- I think it is kind of silly to ask him to be super quiet while she is sleeping. Get a sound machine or something for her room. As far as DS- pick 3 activities that he only gets to during her nap time. Maybe some art stuff, playdoh or playing in the sink with water. Something that is special and that he is excited about. While you are putting little sister down, let DS decide what he wants to do for nap time and remind him that he has to keep an inside voice when you do those activities otherwise sister will wake up and then we have to put away the activity.
As for taking away toys- I only use this when LO isn't using the toys appropriately. I will say, "we don't throw our puzzle pieces, if you keep throwing your pieces, I am going to have to put the puzzle way for the day" Once again very matter o fact and business like. "oh I see you continued to throw the pieces, well now mommy has to put the puzzle away, you will get it back tomorrow" And then when I do give it back, I remind LO of how we play correctly with the toy.
Finally, is he in any sort of preschool? Does he any sort of outlet for his energy? fi not maybe its time to get him involved in something. Something he can go to a coupe days a week, interact with other kids and adults and something that once again is special to him.
Being a parent isn't about being super strict, its about setting boundaries and staying consistent with the boundaries.
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I'm going to go ahead and disagree with just about every poster here.
First of all, time outs. Whining never hurt anyone. Our time outs are in a different room. DS sits in time out and when he is done whining/pouting/whatever, we go in, talk about the behavior and how we will act next time.
And at the grocery store? We had to leave church early the other day because DS was misbehaving. He sat in time out when we got home. I adressed the behavior in church, and as we were leaving, I told him why. When we got home, we talked about what happened again and he sat in time out.
Its not about being strict. Its about being firm and consistent. Yes, it stinks and it isn't "fun" a lot of the time. But we've found in the long run, its more fun to spend time with a child who knows boundaries.
Take picking up toys, for example. We used to fight and fight and fight over cleaning up toys. Nothing worked- making it a game didn't work, taking them away didn't work, none of it.
Finally, we laid some ground rules: only one type of toy out at a time, all toys have to be picked up before bed time no matter what, and all toys have to be put back into their place.
Not only is it more fun to play with him now, we don't have a 30+ minute struggle to pick up the toys, but HE has more fun. Kids don't like to get disciplined at any more than we like to discipline. We laid out clear expectations, and now it is his routine. He can find all of his toys and doesn't spend hours searching for his green truck.
Good luck.
I think you've gotten plenty of advice, so I just wanted to say that parenting stinks and is really difficult. There's no right or wrong way to do it. Hang in there!