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Working Moms
Nala37
member
Salary for new lawyer
Nala37
member
in Working Moms
So I have one more question as a new lawyer. My boss finally got around to talking to me about salary. She told me before that she was asking around at other small firms to see what they were paying their associates, so I thought I would be offered a competitive salary, but the number she gave me is something I could make working in retail full time. She also offered for me to keep 50% of what I brought in from new clients. I told her I needed to talk to DH about our finances and would get back to her.
I was told that I had to work full time because I'm an attorney now, but doing so would actually be a pay cut from the hourly wage I was getting paid working part time before I was sworn in. We live in an area with a high cost of living, and on top of all our our regular bills, my deferment on my loans is ending, DS is starting day care next month, and I'm also getting a new car (a necessity, not something I can put off).
I can't even count on bringing in a lot of new clients and making up the difference to make this worthwhile. The only people I know in the area are DH's family and the two friends I've made since moving up here. I want to have my own clients, but it's unrealistic for her to think that I'm going to be able to bring in enough right now to be able to live on what I'm being paid.
What do I do? Do I tell her that I can't accept such a low salary and counteroffer with a higher number and lower percentage on the clients I bring in? Tell her I'll work full time on an hourly wage? I don't expect to make 80k as a first year associate, but I do expect to make more than I could when I was 18.
Sorry this is so long, and thanks in advance for the advice.
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Re: Salary for new lawyer
Most of my law school classmates in a MCOL area started their first years making approximately 35-40k, with some making significantly lower (or still unemployed) and a select few making 80-100k.
In most smaller firms, you have to pay your dues and don't make a heck fo a lot for the first couple years--but after that, if you are good, you will start getting some good raises. Just remember that in small firms in MCOL and LCOL areas, many of the owners/partners of those firms only make 80-100k a year, so they have to pay their associates much less than that to make it cost-effective to bring someone else in.
How much is she willing to pay? Do you have other options (did you go to a 1st tier school, graduate in the top 20% of your class, have significant rainmaker potential?) I would caution you that if you counter-offer for a significantly higher salary, your potential boss might just pull the offer altogether. So you will just have to decide for yourself how much you need this job and how willing you are to wait for another few months or even a year to find another/higher offer.
She offered 20k plus half of what I bring in from new clients. I have no problem paying my dues, but that is not a livable salary for me. If I lived at home and didn't have a child, sure, I could deal with it, but DS's daycare alone will cost over $13k next year, not to mention all the other basic expenses each month. Even with DH's salary, money is still tight because of our law school loans and several major unexpected expenses over the last few months.
I'm not going to ask for 50k or anything like that, but I need about 30k to get by. It's pretty much a given that I'm not going to bring in an additional 20k worth of new clients next year to make up that extra 10k that I need. Is it okay to ask for 30k and reduce the percentage that I keep from clients I bring in?
20k sounds extremely low to me. 30k sounds low as well. How much was your boss paying you per hour when you worked part-time?
30k is a little low to me, too, but since she offered 20 I feel like I can't go much higher without it being a problem. She also said that if she pays me 20k it's almost 30k for her with taxes and whatnot, and while I understand that it's costing her additional money to have me there, I don't think that means it's okay to pay me less.
I was making $14/hour when I was part-time as a secretary/paralegal/law grad in limbo.
I'm a lawyer..that seems nuts. I graduated in 1999 and my starting salary at a solo was around $32k or so, but that was 13 years ago (yikes!) ....and it was working for a solo practitioner. I would negotiate or look for another job. You should also consider working for an insurance company or something like that. There are tons of us doing that, and we make much more than $30K.
This. I work as a paralegal and I started out making more than $30k. What area of law are you practicing?
Good luck! I'm terrible at negotiating!
I am not an attorney, but I am an HR Exec and see salaries all the time. I honestly think $20K is ridiculous and insulting. You need to talk to her to try to negotiate, but be sure to use facts. Do not discuss your personal finances, as that should not have any impact on what your salary is. You need to discuss things like cost of living in your area, average starting salary in your area, your experience, your education, your workload, etc. It would also be worth mentioning that you have worked for her for x amount of time already so it would be much easier for you to jump right in rather than have her have to hire someone off the street. Check out salary.com and other sites like it to get some of the info on compensation. Also, it is not your problem that she needs to pay taxes etc up and above your salary. That is a cost of doing business. Other firms have to pay the same taxes as well.
Good luck to you. I hope I am wrong, but it sounds like she is trying to take advantage of you...
Goodbye little angel(7/22/2011)....see you in heaven
Goodbye my second angel (9/18/2011)
I agree that her offer is bordering on insulting.
If you were a more experienced lawyer with a book of business an offer to "keep 50% of what you bring in" would be okay. But as a brand new lawyer, your billings are likely to be reduced or written off because clients can't necessarily be charged for all the time you spend on a matter. Collections in general are tough, especially when you're just starting out. There is a reason firms pay a fixed salary and have a long transition to making partner. It takes that much time for an associate to become profitable. Finally, who is going to be responsible for paying bar dues, CLE courses, and malpractice insurance?
I think you need to have a very good idea of what comparable salaries look like in your region for the size of firm and type of practice before you start negotiations. Good luck!
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I clerked for a judge right out of law school and only made $14/hr, but it was for the experience more an anything and I stayed less than a year. My first job at a private firm was doing contract indigent defense in 2005 and my base was $3400/mo ($40,800 annually) with a 50% split in any retained work I did. $20k seems downright insane to me! I would rather wor retail or as a paralegal to make ends meet and to keep job hunting for the right fit. I also have no idea where you live and what the market is like there, but our lowest paid staff person, the receptionist makes more than $20k at my office.
$20k??? IMO, that seems absurd!!! Our receptionist makes more than that at the small firm I work at and she is only part-time!!!
What area of law do you practice in?
At my first law firm (my first job out of law school), I think my salary was either $135k or $145k plus benefits, a $5k sign on bonus, bar expenses, etc. It was a commercial litigation boutique in Houston. I did go to a top 20 law school, though, and graduated with honors. However, I didn't stay there long as legitimately it was a horrible work environment and it was almost impossible to have any sort of work/life balance. I did not have billable hour requirements per se, but I am sure at least 2000 was expected.
The mid-sized firm that I clerked at in law school (which did school law and public law) started their attorneys out at I think about $65k. However, it was in Austin, TX where it is very, very hard to get a legal job because so many people want to live there. They had billable hour requirements of about 1700 hours.
At the small law firm I work at now (fewer than 5 attorneys) I made a little under $100k my first full calendar year there and a little over $100k my second full calendar year there between base salary and bonuses. My base salary was $66k the first year and $78k the second year. The difference between my base and what I actually made were bonuses based on what the firm received from my billable hours. I have never bought in any of my own clients. It is also commercial litigation. Both years I probably billed about 1300-1400 hours. Right now I am only working 3 days a week and getting 60% of my former base salary. Unfortunately, the bummer part of this is that I since I have been back from maternity leave, I have been billing almost as much as I did before...I just work longer hours on the days I work. Still, it is worth it to me to only have to work three days.
I don't know all of your circumstances, but $20k seems absurd to me for anyone with a professional degree (regardless of the school you went to) who works full-time. Again, I don't know all of your circumstances, but I would think even a a salary of double that would not be unreasonable. Personally, if it was me, I would try to get more and if she isn't willing to pay more, I would work there just to get the experience (because a low paying job is better than no job), but start looking for work elsewhere.
2011: FSH 13.3 & E 99; AMH 0.54 2nd FSH 6.2 E 40's AFC: 8
BFP from Clomid/IUI ~ Pre-e and IUGR during pregnancy ~ DS born 9/4/12
Feb./March 2013: AMH less than 0.16 (undectable) and AFC = 4;
BFP from supps ~ DS#2 due May 2014
May 2014 January Siggy Challenge:
I don't know anything about law firm salaries , but just wanted to reiterate what another poster said about not getting into personal stuff when negotiating. Do not tell your boss about needing more money because you have a child/ren, anything about your marriage, where you live, etc. A single person with no kids with the same qualifications as you would deserve a higher salary, too, so stick to the facts; qualifications, what other similar positions make, etc.
The firm I'm at was a solo practice until she decided to bring me in. We're in a mid-size town in New England and while I could see that meaning a lower salary than a city, the cost of living is not low here. She's mentioned in the past that I would be expected to bring in clients, which I knew and expected I would get some percentage from it, but I didn't expect to be offered such a low salary, especially since I don't have the potential to bring in a lot of clients right now since I still don't really know anyone around here.
I don't know how willing she is to negotiate, but it doesn't hurt to try. I'll keep in mind not to bring up personal finances. I've never negotiated for my salary before, and so I think I just felt like I needed to justify asking for more money. I don't really want to find a different job, especially since there doesn't seem to be much in the area that I'm qualified for, so hopefully we can come up with something that works for both of us.
It really can't hurt. I just negotiated a new employment contract for when I return from maternity leave. I thought for sure that my firm would say no but they actually agreed to most of my requests. Hopefully you'll have a similar outcome. Good luck
This. If we assume that you end up working 50 hours a week (which is probably pretty standard for most first year lawyers as you learn the ropes), then $20k would barely be above the federal minimum wage! A person with any sort of professional degree should be making well in excess of the minimum wage.
Also, I would say with near certainty that you would qualify to defer your loans making only $20k unless you just barely owe anything and your payments are small.
Other things to consider when negotiating - how much does she bill you out at? How many hours a week (or a year) does she expect you to bill? What is her "overhead" in employing you (i.e. increased legal malpractice rates, is she paying your bar dues, attorney occupation taxes, medical insurance, retirment, etc.)? If she is not giving you any benefits, only paying you $20k and billing you out at like $180 an hour and expects you to bill 35-40 hours a week, she truly is trying to get something for nothing.
You might even consider some alternate arrangement whereby she gives you a percentage of your billings or a percentage of what she receives on your billings. In other words, if she bills you out at $150 per hour, you could request that she pay you 1/3rd or 1/4th of that or even 1/3rd or 1/4th of what she is paid on (since sometimes time gets written off or clients don't pay) from your billing. Or you could do a combo arrangment where she pays you a base salary plus a certain percentage of what she receives on your total billables.
If I were in your shoes, I would try to negotiate a higher rate and, if that doesn't work, I would start looking for another job. I do think it is better to look for a job when you have a job, though.
Additionally, I have a friend who gets cases through the court for representing children in abuse cases as an attorney ad litem and is paid by the state. I'm sure this varies from state to state, but you might look into doing something like that. In my state, you can also get on a list in many counties to represent people who are indigent in criminal defense cases. Again, I'm sure this varies from state to state and county to county, but something to consider.
The only way I could see $20k being in anyway even slightly reasonable would be if she didn't think she was going to have much for you to do and was going to be using you primarily as a legal assistant to do things she really can't bill the client for.
Just my two cents. Hope it works out for you.
2011: FSH 13.3 & E 99; AMH 0.54 2nd FSH 6.2 E 40's AFC: 8
BFP from Clomid/IUI ~ Pre-e and IUGR during pregnancy ~ DS born 9/4/12
Feb./March 2013: AMH less than 0.16 (undectable) and AFC = 4;
BFP from supps ~ DS#2 due May 2014
May 2014 January Siggy Challenge:
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Pinterest: LO ... somedayI too recently hit the market as an attorney. In our area, FT starting attorneys are making poor money. My DH and I are actually planning to move for better job opportunities. My law school actually had posted starting attorney openings with a major software company for only $35,000/yr. So, I can honestly say some areas are just not good for practicing law. Our largest firms are laying off attorneys right now, which has only made the competition for jobs that pay less or clients even more fierce.
I took an alternative type of job, where I have to utilize my business background and legal background. I work for a contract services company and I do a combined responsibility position. I seek out, negotiate and draft all contracts for the company. I advise on current contracts and re-negotiate existing contracts. I'm making about $37k a year plus bonuses for all new contracts successfully negotiated and all successfully re-negotiated contracts. I put in a TON of hours, but it has been relatively profitable for us. Maybe you could look into doing something similar, where you can combine your skills and gain more financial security. Like I mentioned above though, we are waiting on a job offer for my DH so that we can move from the area and I can pursue better paying job opportunities. Good luck.
I have no absolutely no interest in going out on my own or doing family or criminal law; it's just not for me. We do mostly transactional law, and I particularly do the estate planning, with some probate, real estate, corporate law, etc. I like this office because it is mostly areas I'm interested in, we have plenty of work, and she's been a pretty good mentor for someone just out of law school.
She has paid most of the expenses (registration with the state Supreme Court, malpractice insurance, etc.) and gave me a few weeks off to study for the bar, but doesn't offer benefits of any sort. She's been practicing for almost 30 years, so I don't know if maybe she just doesn't realize that 20k is really low now? Either way, hopefully when I talk to her she'll be open to my requests. There's already way too many lawyers in the area, I don't want to have to try and find another legal job or go back to retail.
My two cents as an attorney who has practiced for 8 years at big, medium, and small firms:
1. $20,000 is extremely low, as others have mentioned;
2. I wouldn't count on origination fees because it is extremely difficult to bring in clients, especially when you are a new attorney;
3. She's paying your malpractice premium because she's on the hook if you screw up, not as a service to you and not as part of your salary.
That said, I know how hard it is to find your first legal job. I think you should try to negotiate with her and take the job if you don't have any other prospects, but keep your eyes open for other opportunities. I took a less than perfect job when I started out and I ended up getting poached by another firm after working with them on a case. It never would have happened if I hadn't been at the first job. You will be surprised how quickly you meet people. Best of luck!