What to do when logical/natural consequences don't work

kcisthebombdotcom · December 2012

My son is nearing three and hitting a really defiant stage with just about anything. For example, he doesn't want to get dressed in the morning. I say if he doesn't get dressed, we can't go to school/playgroup/insert some other fun activity here. It doesn't work at all. Some days I have to give in and get him dressed because it's an appointment he can't miss.

How do you handle the situation when the natural/logical consequence isn't motivating enough to deter the behavior?

kcisthebombdotcom · December 2012

fredalina:
Here are some ideas: Have him help make a chart of morning/evening routines, and ask him questions about what comes next. Change your wording from "you can't go" to "they will start without you". DD was late for gymnastics once and did NOT like it when they started without her. "You can't go" would have been ignored or caused a tantrum. Also try "When you are dressed, we can go ______". Put off fun stalling tactics like tv until after he has gotten dressed. Get him involved in the process. Have him choose his clothes, which toothbrush/toothpaste to use, etc. Make it silly. Put his pants on your head and ask if that's where they go. This would NOT work with DD because she'd turn it into a long game and stall more, but I have heard it works great for some. Check your expectations. How imperative is it that he be dressed? Will the world end if he wears his PJs to playgroup? Will he perhaps be embarrassed and choose not to repeat that? Will he adopt it as a new style and "own" it? Adjust your mindset. Remember that when you ask/tell him to stop what he's doing and do something else, you are interrupting him. think about how it feels when you are busy with something and he demands that you stop and do something for him RIGHT NOW that you know can wait a little while. Annoyed, right? Especially if he pushes over and over. So try to be respectful of his time also, while keeping a good eye on the clock. And also, three just plain sucks.

ooh, I like the "they will start without you!" That's a good one to try. We do the routine/he picks out the clothes--no luck.

I couldnt try the strategy of just letting him go in his pjs which I wouldn't care less about as he usually doesn't match--he's a nudist and prefers not to wear pants. LOL.

Emerald27 · December 2012

I really like what PP said!

Now, DS is so young that I don't have any experience or advice to share, but there is a section of this article that I read this morning that is about handling defiance in young children...thought you might find it helpful;

https://positiveparentingconnection.net/dealingwithdefiancemovingbeyondpowerstrugglesmoredrlauraanswersyourquestions/

Uh oh...this link needs lots of hyphens and I'm mobile bumping. I can fix it later unless someone else gets to it first!

aglenn · December 2012

Fred has good advice. And I agree, three just plain sucks.

One additional thing that helps with DD is to just refuse to argue. Instead of asking repeatedly or getting into a debate about it, I will just tell her that we need to leave for school in x minutes and she can choose to get dressed on her own or we will put her clothes in a bag and she can get dressed when we get there. Then I drop it and don't discuss/beg/cajole any more. That diffuses the situation and she will usually go get her clothes out of the bag and put them on. It is no fun (from her perspective) when I won't go to battle.

TheEditor · December 2012

KC_13:
My son is nearing three and hitting a really defiant stage with just about anything. For example, he doesn't want to get dressed in the morning. I say if he doesn't get dressed, we can't go to school/playgroup/insert some other fun activity here. It doesn't work at all. Some days I have to give in and get him dressed because it's an appointment he can't miss.

How do you handle the situation when the natural/logical consequence isn't motivating enough to deter the behavior?

When you don't follow through on what you say, it becomes an empty threat, and that's why it's not working. Your kiddo has learned that mom doesn't really mean what she says. I agree with PPs that changing your wording should be more effective.

I have found Love & Logic resources to be a godsend. Great tips, including actual phrases you can use. Poke through their resource page, even beyond the "birth through six" stage. You can always modify recommendations to fit your needs. https://www.loveandlogic.com/articles.html

Meg&Jesse · December 2012

I read a few of the Positive Discipline books when DS turned 3 and they were super helpful.

The main thing I did was to "let go" of some of "my expectations." I let go of what I wanted DS to wear and just let him wear pjs every day (and this stage ended after a year..he now wears regular clothing). I tried to give him lots of choices and "control" over things within reason. Do you want to read 2 or 3 books before bed? Do you want to change in 2 min or 5 min? Do you want a bath or a shower tonight? Etc.

We also did a bedtime chart. We have a few steps of what he does before bed and then we put pictures of him doing those things. He helped pick what order he wanted to do things and then he put the pages together and glued on the pics. Now we dont look at the book often..I think the process of putting it together was most helpful.

We did a lot with feelings. What is your body telling you and how do you feel? Instead of doing time outs we used "cooling down" periods. I would tell DS to find a place to cool down and I would tell him I needed to go cool down as well. I found the more I backed off and let the temporary moment pass the more helpful it was in the long run.

SandiaPinaMama · December 2012

Thanks for posting this, KC. Tonight was my first bout of DS being defiant, and I realized that I am really unprepared for that stage. I need to break out my Positive Discipline book. Anyway, I really appreciated the feedback, so thanks. I got nothing in the what-to-add department, though.

neverblushed · December 2012

It's true that there are times when logical consequences actually don't quite work.

A great example of this is the carseat. The logical consequence of not sitting down to get strapped in is not going. This actually becomes a REWARD for a kid who loathes going to the grocery store!

So, I would resort to the following speech in these circumstances: "Look, we have to go to the grocery store. You must sit in your seat and be strapped in for safety reasons. It's not an option. The choice you have is whether you cooperate with Mommy. You can either sit quietly and let me buckle you in, or I will have to hold onto you and make you sit still. It's up to you."

If your child is less verbal, then you give a shorter, more powerful version of this speech. Then actually let your child choose. If they choose to struggle, gently but firmly hold him down and get the seat buckled. He chose it. If he chooses to sit still, let the natural consequence be that you reward and praise him, commenting on how nice it is to get moving quickly.

neverblushed · December 2012

neverblushed:
It's true that there are times when logical consequences actually don't quite work.
A great example of this is the carseat. The logical consequence of not sitting down to get strapped in is not going. This actually becomes a REWARD for a kid who loathes going to the grocery store!
So, I would resort to the following speech in these circumstances: "Look, we have to go to the grocery store. You must sit in your seat and be strapped in for safety reasons. It's not an option. The choice you have is whether you cooperate with Mommy. You can either sit quietly and let me buckle you in, or I will have to hold onto you and make you sit still. It's up to you."
If your child is less verbal, then you give a shorter, more powerful version of this speech. Then actually let your child choose. If they choose to struggle, gently but firmly hold him down and get the seat buckled. He chose it. If he chooses to sit still, let the natural consequence be that you reward and praise him, commenting on how nice it is to get moving quickly.
The key is that you have to use this technique very sparingly, and only in situations where there really is no other option.

kcisthebombdotcom · December 2012

Thanks for the advice all! I tried rewording and saying that they would start without him vs we couldn't go and it really did the trick.

erbear · December 2012

I don't think that's the natural consequence. I think it's "if you don't want to get dressed by yourself, I'll dress you". He wants to be independent, so the consequence is he can't be. By giving in or skipping appointments, you're letting him rule the roost, and that's not appropriate either.

kcisthebombdotcom · December 2012

erbear:
I don't think that's the natural consequence. I think it's "if you don't want to get dressed by yourself, I'll dress you". He wants to be independent, so the consequence is he can't be. By giving in or skipping appointments, you're letting him rule the roost, and that's not appropriate either.

It's not a play for independence. He doesn't want to wear pants in public. He still wants me to help dress him.

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