If YOU vax, how do the unvaxed put you at risk?

noryang · November 2012

Ok. I admit. I don't understand this. There is a prevalent arguement in the vax thread that those that choose not to vaccinate put others at risk. But if you are confident in the efficacy of vaccinations and you are vaccinated - how does an unvaccinated child put you at risk? You should be protected - right?

And FWIW - I don't believe that herd immunity is truly possible in this world. Not unless we can began vaccinating world wide. There are millions of people in developing countries that are never vaccinated. But there are no restrictions on their ability to travel and spread contagious disease. So given that any one of us could be exposed to God knows what at any time - how is your unvaccinated neighbor down the street really that big of a risk to a vaccinated child?

For those that haven't seen my post...Yes. We vaccinate. On a delayed schedule. See the vax thread for more details. I doubt most people need to read my stance on this again.

MollySm · November 2012

I think everyone agreed that vaccinations are not 100% guarantees that we won't get something. It just lowers our chances, so being exposed to illnesses can still be dangerous.

For me, I think another child not being vaccinated might not be as much a risk to Lucia, who is, but to a child who can't be vaccinated, because of medical reasons, or isn't vaccinated because of their parents decisions, the risk is much higher. So they are putting those children at risk.

pinkshades05 · November 2012

I was kind of wondering this, too. A few people mentioned not allowing their kids to play with non vaccinated children. I would think that wouldnt make a huge difference. Your child is as protected as they can be. With that logic, I would worry about touching door knobs in public places or shopping carts. Only if the child was from another country where other serious illnesses were a concern would I worry.

sooner1981 · November 2012

We are a family that truly believes in the safety and efficacy of vaccinations. But my dear sweet cousin, who I nannied for during summers in college, just finished 3.5 years of chemo treatments for an agressive form of childhood leukemia. During his treatments, his immunity to illnesses was literally zero. I spent nights with him in the ICU as his body fiercely battled illnesses that would not have been nearly as bad if he had had a healthy immune system. His doctors said that a case of the chicken pox, normally merely an annoying childhood illness, would absolutely have killed him. The chemo wiped out the immunity that his previous vaccines had bestowed upon him. For more than 4 years, until his body was strong enough to handle an entire new set of vaccines, he relied 100% on the adults in his community having the intelligence and commitment to ensuring that their children were vaccinated.

Further, of everyone vaccinated, a small portion of the population will not be 100% immunized. Those people only receive partial immunity--and thus, could be more susceptible to picking up an illness from an unvaccinated individual. You don't/can't know for 100% sure that your children and the other people in your life that you care deeply about are 100% protected against these vaccinable illnesses because you can't tell what illnesses they are exposed to on a daily/weekly basis that they would have otherwise contracted if they had not been vaccinated.

But you can be damn sure that if my cousin had beaten leukemia only to have a kid in his class give him chicken pox that killed him due to that kid's mom "doing some research on the internet" and deciding to not vaccinate because it "wasn't right for their family," I probably would have driven to that mom's house, ripped off her arms, and beaten her to death with them. That is how seriously I feel about vaccines. It just isn't a negotiable issue in my book.

And Nory--for the record, I am fine with delaying vaccines a reasonable amount of time if it makes you feel better about them, as long as you get them. There really isn't any research showing that delaying vaccines does anything except cause your LO to have more cumulative exposures to stress due to additional instances of needle jabs (but I know that C has plenty of stress on a daily basis as she is cruising the furniture and learning the hard way about gravity, so who knows if the additional stress from more vaccine appointments makes any difference in the long run. My guess is it probably doesn't.....)

noryang · November 2012

I strongly believe that parents have the right to choose and that it is wrong for anyone demand that others get vaccinated for the sake of "herd immunity". Here's why:

I do not want to take anything away from the tragedy of your cousin's illness. But demanding that others get vaccinated on this basis is a bit futile. The common cold, a flu strain not in that year's vaccination, strep bacteria, etc., etc., ect. could easily sicken or kill a compromised individual. Vaccinations are not going to provide absolute protection for people who cannot be vaccinated.

Second, as I stated in the OP - herd immunity will only be effective if it is on a global scale and that isn't going to happen anytime soon. So we can force or guilt every American into vaccinationing and a moments exposure to an unvaccinated traveler could sicken people. It is just not a realistic goal in our globalized culture.

Third, if the arguement that is acceptable to force others to vaccinate their children for "the greater good" is morally and ethically ok then I would argue (for the sake of a point not because I really think this is ok) that others should HAVE to cloth diaper, drive low emission vehicles, recycle, eat organic, etc. etc. etc. because MY child deserves to have a clean and safe planet to grow up in. You all should do these things because they make the world safer/cleaner/healthier for everyone. But that doesn't seem reasonable - does it? But it is effectively the same arguement that is being used to require vaccinations. And frankly, I call BS. We can't go mandating other people's choices because we don't like them.

heymommy · November 2012

I think the, " I'm not going to let LO play with unvaccinated kids." is funny. I guess they will be homeschooling.

Jen0204 · November 2012

A flu strain or the cold can certainly be deadly to someone with a compromised immune system but something like pertussis or the whopping cough is much of a concern.

As far as herd immunity goes, look at the recent outbreaks of whopping cough, pertussis, and the measles. The CDC has said that they could all be related to the decision not to vaccinate. I don't know what the percentage is, but let's say its 1 of children who the vaccine is not effective for and 1 who can't get it for a medical reason. If you're in a group of 100 kids and the other 99 have gotten the vaccine it's very unlikely for the disease to get into the community and effect that other 2. But if another 10 decide not to get vaccinated the chances of it getting in jump up.

I also don't think it's fair to cloth diapering because while I agree with you about the importance of the environment, me not cloth diapering my babies has no potential immediate health impact on yours. You don't have to worry about your child catching something fom mine because they're wearing Pampers.

runrinserepeat · November 2012

Noryang, you said it yourself. Vaccines are not 100% effective. So if my daughter has the pertussis vax, she may or may not now be immune to it. Helll if I know, but the is a chance, however small, that she could be exposed to it and come down with it, even though she has been vaxed.

so we depend on herd immunity. If the vaccine is 99.9% effective (made that up for the sake of argument), and everyone who can gets vaxed, there's very little chance for the diseases to get a foothold. Most people are immune, the chances of anyone coming down with it are very slim, so the chances that a vaxed-but-not-immune person coming into contact with the disease are low, as is the risk.

But when people choose not to vax, that weakens the herd and gives the disease an opportunity. The more people who come down with pertussis, the higher the chance that our ineffective vaxer will come into contact with the disease and come down with it themselves. So, even though the parental decision, in this case, was to vax, the outcome was affected by non-vaxers.

runrinserepeat · November 2012

Whoa, tl;dr.

Just wanted to add, if you replace "vaxed but it didn't take" in the scenario above (its rather infrequent right), and replace with too young, too old, or too sick to be vaxed, you get the more common argument. However, since DD has been vaxed according to my pedi's recs, this is the reason non-vaxers still bother me.

cs1225 · November 2012

I understand your point Nory about herd immunity not being worldwide. However, if an unvaccinated person comes to the US, it should be very difficult for their illness to take hold here. So, for those who the vax didn't work, they have less of a chance of getting it. There is still a chance (like if they comein intact with that person), but it is much less likely for them. If there are unvaccinated people here, the disease can now have outbreaks and it is more likely that those who the vax didn't work in or who couldn't get it, to come in contact with someone who has the disease.

I do think we need to make vax more available worldwide though and I completely respect your decision to delay the schedule.

cmd9465 · November 2012

sooner1981:
We are a family that truly believes in the safety and efficacy of vaccinations. But my dear sweet cousin, who I nannied for during summers in college, just finished 3.5 years of chemo treatments for an agressive form of childhood leukemia. During his treatments, his immunity to illnesses was literally zero. I spent nights with him in the ICU as his body fiercely battled illnesses that would not have been nearly as bad if he had had a healthy immune system. His doctors said that a case of the chicken pox, normally merely an annoying childhood illness, would absolutely have killed him. The chemo wiped out the immunity that his previous vaccines had bestowed upon him. For more than 4 years, until his body was strong enough to handle an entire new set of vaccines, he relied 100% on the adults in his community having the intelligence and commitment to ensuring that their children were vaccinated.

Further, of everyone vaccinated, a small portion of the population will not be 100% immunized. Those people only receive partial immunity--and thus, could be more susceptible to picking up an illness from an unvaccinated individual. You don't/can't know for 100% sure that your children and the other people in your life that you care deeply about are 100% protected against these vaccinable illnesses because you can't tell what illnesses they are exposed to on a daily/weekly basis that they would have otherwise contracted if they had not been vaccinated.

But you can be damn sure that if my cousin had beaten leukemia only to have a kid in his class give him chicken pox that killed him due to that kid's mom "doing some research on the internet" and deciding to not vaccinate because it "wasn't right for their family," I probably would have driven to that mom's house, ripped off her arms, and beaten her to death with them. That is how seriously I feel about vaccines. It just isn't a negotiable issue in my book.

And Nory--for the record, I am fine with delaying vaccines a reasonable amount of time if it makes you feel better about them, as long as you get them. There really isn't any research showing that delaying vaccines does anything except cause your LO to have more cumulative exposures to stress due to additional instances of needle jabs (but I know that C has plenty of stress on a daily basis as she is cruising the furniture and learning the hard way about gravity, so who knows if the additional stress from more vaccine appointments makes any difference in the long run. My guess is it probably doesn't.....)

I wish I could print this out and give it to some select family members who do not vaccinate their children, and think that I am crazy for doing so.

Thank you for this post, and I am so sorry about your cousins fight with leukemia

Jen0204 · November 2012

Nory, I also think that your family is very unique (in a great way!). I would guess that the majority of Americans don't travel internationally, especially with young children. I didn't leave the country until I was in high school and most of the people who I know have never left the country and of those who have, the majority have gone on cruises or to all-inclusive resorts where they're very secluded. So for you the worldwide herd immunity is definitely a consideration, but I don't think it's something that most Americans have to worry about, especially while they have young children who haven't built up their immune systems yet. We plan on taking the girls to India one day to see where H was born and see some of the wonderful things there but we'll wait until they're older in part because I have no desire to spend that kind of money on airfare when they won't remember it and partly because there are health concerns and I want them to be older and stronger before we go.

runrinserepeat · November 2012

cs1225:

I understand your point Nory about herd immunity not being worldwide. However, if an unvaccinated person comes to the US, it should be very difficult for their illness to take hold here. So, for those who the bad didn't work, they have less of a chance of getting it. There is still a chance (like if they comein intact with that person), but it is much less likely for them. If there are unvaccinated people here, the disease can now have outbreaks and it is more likely that those who the fax didn't work in or who couldn't get it, to come in contact with someone who has the disease.

I do think we need to make vax more available worldwide though and I completely respect your decision to delay the schedule.

Yes

Exactly - this is just more of a reason to want as many people around us as possible to be vaxed, since it is so easy to travel to places where the disease may still be prevalent.

amber31288 · November 2012

heymommy:
I think the, " I'm not going to let LO play with unvaccinated kids." is funny. I guess they will be homeschooling.

I would do my best to not knowingly let me child play with an unvaccinated child, if I had my choice. I understand that once she is in school, I won't have that kind of control. I am saying it makes me uncomfortable if I KNEW little Susie wasn't vaccinated and I allowed her and DD to play everyday. I know I will run into people at the grocery store, at work, and just out everyday that may not be vaccinated and I may not know, and I can't keep DD from all that. That's part of the point of vaccinating her in the first place. But, it would bother me to let DD play with a child if her mom told me the kid wasn't vaccinated. If, God forbid, something did happen, I would feel guilty. I was more worried about this while DD was too young to have had her vaccinations yet, or hadn't had all of them, but even still, it just makes me uncomfortable to KNOW that child is unvaccinated and allow her around my child. It may not make sense, but I don't care.

I have known three people in the past year who caught whooping cough. Only one was a young child, but these were all people I come into contact with often and it made me very nervous. They had all been vaccinated (but my assumption is the older 2 did not get their booster later in life). Plus, with the pending arrival of DD2, there's no way I feel bad about saying I don't want my kid to knowingly play with unvaccinated kids. Doesn't make me feel bad at all.

Jen0204 · November 2012

Oh, and for the record, I did bring the girls around my friend's un-vaxed kids when they were little. They were almost 3 months old and her kids are 3.5 and 2 and they didn't really touch the girls at all. I thought a lot about it before we went but made the decision that since her kids weren't (outwardly) sick and the girls weren't moving at all yet and would just be held by us the whole time it was fine. I don't really know what I would do now. It's pretty hypocritical of me because it drives me absolutely nuts that this friend spends all day every day on FB trying to convince everyone else of her beliefs (anti-vax, anti-formula, anti-CIO, only eat organic foods and drink raw milk, etc.) but part of me wants to say to her that our kids can't play together to send a message and show how strongly I feel about vaccinating. I believe that parents are wrong for not vaccinating and that the movement to not vaccinate is putting everyone's kids in greater danger and I feel like if there are consequences for not vaccinating (as in, little Johnny isn't allowed over the houses of his friends from school) maybe parents will start rethinking this. Recent outbreaks of pertussis, the whooping cough, and the measles show that the concerns are not just imaginary.

Again, I don't know if I'll actually tell her that her kids can't be around mine. I'll probably ask the doctor about it at their next appointment because the girls have been sick off and on for about a month so if their doctor thinks it's best to avoid being around non-vaxed kids when possible then that's what we'll do. I realize that when they go to school that won't be an option, but by then they'll be much older and will have been through various illnesses that will have helped to strengthen their immune system.

NatesLady1309 · November 2012

From the other Vax thread...

kleMcK:

Risks vs. Reward
Getting vaxed: extremely small chance of side effects vs. extremely good chance of protection from disease
Playing with cousin: extremely small chance of getting sick vs. ... the joy of playing with cousins?
You're right, the risks might be about even, but the benefits are not. Not even close.
As far as what Jen's decision is re: the chicken pox vaccine, whatever. All I can say is that I made the same decision that sooner has about the chicken pox vaccine for the same reasons, so what she's said here definitely resonates with me. If you don't like it, there's not much I can do. Just trying to help you understand why this is one parenting decision where I can't respect the other side, because the other side puts my child at risk.

I guess for the risk vs. reward thing I would go back to what others have said about riding in a car, plane, walking across the street, etc. They are all risks. Without doing any research on it, I would think that there would be about as much risk involved for my vaxed child to play with an unvaxed child than crossing the street and hoping I don't get run over by a car or something like that. So to me it is worth the risk because the chance of something bad happening is SO minuscule compared to the benefit (vaxed child getting to play with friends or family members and continue a close relationship with them even though they are unvaxed).

Lena122 · November 2012

I think Jen's example pretty much answers the question. Babies get many vaccinations in the first year so they spend months of their early lives being unvaccinated. If my newborn comes in contact with an unvaxed 5 year old, whether on purpose because it's family or on accident in the doctor's office waiting room, then it DOES put my baby at risk.

Jen0204 · November 2012

NatesLady1309:
I guess for the risk vs. reward thing I would go back to what others have said about riding in a car, plane, walking across the street, etc. They are all risks. Without doing any research on it, I would think that there would be about as much risk involved for my vaxed child to play with an unvaxed child than crossing the street and hoping I don't get run over by a car or something like that. So to me it is worth the risk because the chance of something bad happening is SO minuscule compared to the benefit (vaxed child getting to play with friends or family members and continue a close relationship with them even though they are unvaxed).

But for me, as parents it's our job to help mitigate the risks for our kids. We can't avoid a lot of things, but those that we can avoid - and in a fairly simple manner - we should. I don't know if in reality I would prevent my child from playing with an unvaxed child, but it honestly annoys me that other parents put me in that position.

Sept07b2b · November 2012

As for the "I wouldn't let my LO play with an unvax child" question, my answer is simple. I am SO pro-vaccination based on the extensive medical research out there, that I simply can't imagine having ANYTHING in common with someone who doesn't vaccinate their children.

In my opinion, anyone who doesn't vaccinate their children without some really legitimate health reason or true religioius belief, is just horribly uneducated and clearly doesn't believe in science. Therefore, I would have zero interest in a playdate with that person or that person's unvaccinated children, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want my child to be around those parents unsupervised. This is unrelated to fear of my LO getting sick.

I'm all for differences in opinions when it comes to parenting, and I truly don't believe in judging someone for their parenting decisions if they differ from mine. I LOVE a good debate, and I love watching discussions on this board when people have a difference in opinion on different topics, but I expect debates and differences in opinions to be based on facts, not ridiculous anecdotes.

NatesLady1309 · November 2012

Sept07b2b:
As for the "I wouldn't let my LO play with an unvax child" question, my answer is simple. I am SO pro-vaccination based on the extensive medical research out there, that I simply can't imagine having ANYTHING in common with someone who doesn't vaccinate their children.

In my opinion, anyone who doesn't vaccinate their children without some really legitimate health reason or true religioius belief, is just horribly uneducated and clearly doesn't believe in science. Therefore, I would have zero interest in a playdate with that person or that person's unvaccinated children, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want my child to be around those parents unsupervised. This is unrelated to fear of my LO getting sick.

Wow. I think it's taking it way too far to be judging the parents' morality it seems, that you would say you would not want your child to be around "those parents" unsupervised solely based on their decisions about vaccinating their children and how you seem to think that decision says something negative about them as people. Not cool.

Sept07b2b · November 2012

How am I judging the parent's morality? I said that if it was a true religious belief, I would think differently. I am judging a parent's lack of education on the topic. That I stand-by.

I would just prefer my children be around people who care enough about their own children to really educate themselves on issues regarding safety and not make decisions based on someone who knows someone who knows someone where something happened. I don't see that as such a big deal, really.

MollySm · November 2012

I also think not letting your child play with unvaccinated children of people you know is most likely just taking a stand for something you believe in. If you think it is wrong for people not to vaccinate their children, then standing up for that decision doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

kittyh8r · November 2012

heymommy:
I think the, " I'm not going to let LO play with unvaccinated kids." is funny. I guess they will be homeschooling.

Our public school system requires vaccines. We ARE homeschooling, not because we aren't vaxing, because we are, just on a delayed schedule. I have a friend who plans to not vax when she has her baby in Jan. She had horrible reactions to vaccines when she was an infant and doesn't want to take the chance with her daughter when she is born. I understand that.

Isn't there a risk to pregnant women being around unvaxed kids? I thought I heard that at some point..

sooner1981 · November 2012

NatesLady1309:
Wow. I think it's taking it way too far to be judging the parents' morality it seems, that you would say you would not want your child to be around "those parents" unsupervised solely based on their decisions about vaccinating their children and how you seem to think that decision says something negative about them as people. Not cool.

I'll just come right out and say it. I think that if you don't vaccinate your kids solely based on junk science you read on conspiracy-theory internet forum, then you are bad parent. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200. There is no gray area in my mind on this issue. So, on this issue, I believe that a parent's decision does directly shed light on their ethics and ability to be good parents.

Why can the state pass mandatory seat belt laws, mandatory helmet laws, and hold that it is criminally neglectful to not seek medical treatment for your child when they get sick--but give a free pass to parents to not permit their children (who have no independent say in the matter) to receive potentially life-saving immunity from deadly illnesses? Makes no sense in my book...

callalilly323 · November 2012

It seems to me that parents of unvaccinated children are relying heavily on the notion of herd immunity. If 99% of the school is vaccinated the likelihood of their child contracting a serious disease is minimal.

I'm sure many of the same parents who refuse to vaccinate their child today would have jumped at the chance if given 150 years ago.

Jen0204 · November 2012

callalilly323:
I'm sure many of the same parents who refuse to vaccinate their child today would have jumped at the chance if given 150 years ago.

That's the thing - I wonder how differently people would feel if some of these diseases where common and something that we saw first hand. Even with the chicken pox, a lot of know that the chicken pox is normally no big deal - I had them when I was younger - but would people feel differently if they had experiences shingles like Sooner, Lancy, or Lawren?

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