s/o Gwenillian's post - a bit long...
So reading her response to LittleJen's post, I really appreciated the knowledge.
This topic in LittleJen's post has plagued me for years. The information I'm about to share came directly from my MIL and her children, and FIL.
My MIL - God rest her soul was a God fearing woman all her life. She was "saved" as a young girl. In other words, she recognized Jesus Christ as her saviour. She met my FIL and married him. FIL met her, fell in love with her, married her and the moment he married her started hanging out with his friends, hanging out in bars and carousing with women. Why she stayed you ask? She always would explain "why would I leave one situation to jump into another one worse than the one I already have?". So she automatically assumed that it would be worse. She was a doormat because she let herself be the doormat.
When I first started dating DH - I used to visit their house with him. FIL would be in front of the TV - she would serve him on his portable table. When he was finished he would hit the plate with his fork (it would make a "ding ding" sound) which was his signal for her to come and take his plate away. I was insulted that I was witnessing this, and I was insulted for her. She would NEVER complain about anything. After I married DH - we found out FIL was having an affair with a local floozy. MIL KNEW ABOUT THIS BUT NEVER DID ANYTHING.
He wanted to leave MIL for her, and in the end the floozy was just trying to get $$ out of him, which she did - he bought her a car. So his poor heart was broken and he didn't leave MIL. When she got sick (I was married about 3 years by then) with a really bad UTI - I was the one that accompanied her to the ER. FIL said "I'm not a doctor, how can I help" during this time. There were DOZENS of these comments made by him over the years.
Fast forward to when she found out she had breast cancer. The recovery was BRUTAL for her, and none of her children thought about her hair loss. I went to buy her a nice wig and she used it for church. It was then and only then that he realized she was the ROCK holding them together, and that if something happened to her, his children weren't going to be fighting each other to take care of him in his old age. She survived the breast cancer, but her heart was affected by the radiation, she had to get a 3 bypass, then a pacemaker and the day after it was put in she died. She was probably in constant pain after the first heart surgery but never complained. FIL said that a year before she passed she told him "why did it take you so many years to care?".
Now FIL is going crazy - he has had his own cancer scare, kidney problems, a colostomy, and now the cancer has mastesized (sp?). So my question - was my MIL better off because she suffered needlessly and accepted as Jesus would? Does this make her a better person? Is this what you're supposed to do?
It just seems very sad and tragic to me.
Re: s/o Gwenillian's post - a bit long...
Personally I think that being a loving and giving person is it's own reward. In your MILs case, I'm not so sure, but in general the people I have seen who were good to their children, generous, loving, kind.......they are the ones who spend their older years surrounded by a family that loves them, are getting texts from their college aged grandchildren, etc. The people who were selfish are all alone. Of course there are exceptions......but in general this is what I see.
Your MIL didn't say that she was staying married b/c that's WJWD - she said she was afraid of what came next, so I don't think you can lay the blame all at Jesus' feet for this one.
Your MIL didn't say that she was staying married b/c that's WJWD - she said she was afraid of what came next, so I don't think you can lay the blame all at Jesus' feet for this one.
I don't think I said this - in any case this isn't what I meant. I think as a Christian she was trying to apply honoring her DH. I feel their marriage was pretty one sided and I guess this is affecting me so much. They were married for 48 years.
It is sad & it is tragic. I think some people are just so afraid of what might happen that they don't want to take a chance even if it could be much better.
I hope you don't mind my $0.02. There is a distinct biblical difference between the husband/wife relationship & the parent/child relationship. Parents are to train up their children in the way they should go, children are to honor & obey their parents. Husbands & wives are supposed to be a team - working together & each submitting themselves to the other's needs.
I think that what your MIL did was a selfless thing & that she did her best to be a Christian. I don't think that this makes her better off - heaven is heaven. I don't know that this makes her a better person exactly either. I think she was just doing her best to do what she thought was right & I think she was afraid of what change could bring.
As for the question "Is this what we're supposed to do?", if you mean biblically, then the best answer I could give you is I Cor. 7:12-16. It basically says that if a believer is married to an unbeliever, they should remain married if the unbeliever wants to. However, if the unbeliever leaves, the believer is free to move on. My pastor believed this also covered abusive relationships and/or those in which the unbeliever forced (or tried to force) the believer to leave to keep up appearances. By this my best example is that in my 1st marriage, I was told on a daily basis for 2 years to get the F out of EH's house & when I wouldn't I was threatened & sometimes mildly physically abused - i.e. stuff thrown at me, but not hard enough to break bones or leave really noticable marks. I was then told this would continue until I got the F out. When I discussed this with my pastor, his explanation was that 1. God does not say we should stay in an abusive/dangerous relationship & 2. although the other spouse may be physically present in the household, clearly they did not want to be & the effort to get me out of the household was essentially the same as him leaving himself.
Given those verses & the acceptable reasons stated elsewhere in the bible, no your MIL didn't have to stay - she could have left when he 1. cheated on her, 2. left her.
I feel really badly for her & your whole family - what a sad thing.
You really can never know why your MIL stayed in that situation. It may or may not have had anything to do with her faith. I'm sure there are a number of details that come into play that were only known to your in laws.
People rarely do things that do not benefit themselves in some way. There's usually some pay off in one way or another. Maybe the payoff was looking like a saint, but maybe not.
As for backing it up scripturally, my pastor has always interpreted that same passage more literally. Maybe my church is more conservative though. He certainly would not advocate anyone stay in an abusive realtionship though, but then leave for that reason without interpreting scripture to suit your needs. Not saying that you are, but it says what it says.
That said, this is a really sore subject with me as my DH's ex will twist the heck out of Bible passages to pass judgement on others and/or justify her behavior, which is often far from Christian. At first, she couldn't associate with couples that lived together but weren't married, gays, or unwed mothers. Then she got pregnant out of wedlock and threatened to abort the baby unless DH married her. Then it was all about how divorce is a sin....until she filed for divorce and then divorce was ok, but remarriage was adultry (of course this was when DH and I were getting married, lol) Now she's engaged so I'm guessing the Bible changed again.
Anyway, salvation is not in the details like that so I feel like it's not anyone's place to speculate about anyone other than themselves.
Anyway, salvation is not in the details like that so I feel like it's not anyone's place to speculate about anyone other than themselves
I agree with this and I wasn't judging MIL - It was more of analyzing how much a person should take. It goes back to j+k's post about her being on the brink of divorce. She was getting opinions on all sides including a specifically Christian perspective.
I agree with how Gwenillian explained it.
I should add that I don't judge other people's reasons for getting a divorce or remarriage. It's something I strongly feel is between that person, their SO & God - only they really know the ins & outs of the marriage.
I was only going on the question for this situation & my understanding of this specific scripture per my pastor (who is actually very pro marriage & anti-divorce).
Going off topic, BagelGirl my EH has told his wife so many stories about me that it would make your head spin. 99% of them aren't true, they are his versions of truth & in those versions he is always the victim & I'm the evil B from h*ll. Most of them aren't things I would ever say, do or believe - but that doesn't make any difference to him because the truth makes him look bad & he can't have that. A fair amount of them are actually the same as the things you listed. I would never say I was perfect & I had my share of fault for our marriage & divorce, but it was really enlightening to learn all the things she thinks she knows about how our marriage was when she really has no idea.
You did say that she was afraid that life after FIL might not be better. I don't see Christianity in this, unless she was using the bible to justify her cowardice. If she was trying to be a good Christian, there were plenty of other people in the world that she could have "served" without the indignity of answering when her husband beckoned her with a fork to his plate. She could have ministered in church, etc. I think you are confusing her fear of leaving her marriage with a desire to serve God and his teachings. There are plenty of strong Christian women out there.
It seems even her children took her for granted (you were the only person buying her a wig). I think they learned this disrespect from their father. I'm not sure what is affecting you - - are you hoping she is happy and in heaven b/c of her actions? Are you questioning the institution of marriage b/c of MILs choices?
If you are wondering about heaven and hell -- I'm kindof hoping your MIL flew up to heaven, and that there is not chance she will run into FIL, if you catch my drift....
I'm so sorry about your MIL. I'm glad you got to know her, and I'm glad her husband finally realized what he had, but it's so sad it took so long.
I think there would have been a number of options to her if she had wanted them that would have been biblically based.
You know BM's backstory. DH never gave up on her. Once he discovered she had brought drugs into their home, he did turn them over to the police, a fact she has never forgiven him for (like he's the one who needs forgiveness...) but he did not leave her. He wanted her to get help, but she walked away. Even after that incident, he married her when she asked. She was gone the next week, and pregnant with another man's baby within a few months.
I wouldn't fault anyone else for having a different response to her troubles, and God knows I would not have handled myself so blamelessly. At his core, he is a much stronger person than I am in a lot of ways.
My point about your MIL. Your FIL's behaviors that were illegal - DUI? physical abuse? could have been handled through legal channels. His piggishness could have been ignored or not tolerated. She didn't have to serve him in front of the tv, for example. Not that I'm trying to find fault - she seems like she endured more than her share of struggles - but there were alternatives to putting up with his behavior.
I'm so sorry your DH had to grow up like this, too.
I think they learned this disrespect from their father.
100% agree. Thanks for posting.