This article just p****** me off!

krismott25 · April 2012

Has anyone read this yet? This poor woman struggled with IF and was fired from her Catholic school teaching job because she went through IVF. The pastor called her something like a grave, immoral sinner. The woman wasn't even catholic!!!! Now she's suing and I hope she wins. It's just terrible. Honestly the catholic church can be soooo hypocritical (I'm catholic so I can say it) All I can think about when I see sh** like this is why weren't all those priest held to a higher standard. I know of one in my parish that was just sent away and to this day has not been held accountable. ooo this pisses me off! I wish Pope John Paul could be brought back from the dead, he was much more tolerant then this new guy.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/25/catholic-school-ivf_n_1453524.html?1335386848&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D155337

limpetfan · April 2012

I read it - made me &*&%^%$# mad, too! Every time I think I've made my peace with the Catholic Church's stance on this, something comes out in the media that makes me feel I need to re-evaluate.

Ugh.

krismott25 · April 2012

limpetfan:

I read it - made me &*&%^%$# mad, too! Every time I think I've made my peace with the Catholic Church's stance on this, something comes out in the media that makes me feel I need to re-evaluate.

Ugh.

EXACTLY! My dh, who is not catholic, and I were talking this weekend about what we are going to do. Part of me wants to stay catholic because I'm comfortable and find peace in the traditions I was raised on, but then I read this shiz and loose my mind. What dh said was you will find something you dislike in every religion/job/friends/ basically everything in life, doesn't mean you run away from them all. I was surprised because I knew it pisses him off that the church has this stance. But at the same time he also see's the good in it too. SUCH a hard decision. I fell there is such a dichotomy in the church I go to and the Church in Rome and in the media.

maby22 · April 2012

I also read it...WTF...who do they think they are calling her a sinner! The Bible speaks of live, tolerance and letting God be the judge. What happened to this woman makes me so mad!

lovebug33 · April 2012

This made me mad too. I am trying to get over it because DH absolutely refuses to even look into other religions. Sigh! The part about this that really got me beyond the stupidity is they called her, her DH, and her FATHER in for the meeting. WTF? We need our daddy's to come in to see us get in trouble? The Catholic church needs to come into the 21st century. God gave my RE the knowledge to help people and he helps people become pg. That is not the devil, people!

mandalinn25 · April 2012

This kind of stuff is why I left the church. Sadly though they legally have the right to fire her, I bet she signed a morality contract. They make all workers do it. Not that it makes it right, but it is legal.

mystic_J · April 2012

bellalou32:
MY BAD...SHE ABORTED 3 SONS, NOT 2, VIA IVF CAUSE SHE WANTED GIRLS:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345057/Couple-sons-abort-twin-boys-IVF--try-baby-girl-daughter-died.html

This article makes me physically ill, as does the Catholic Church's stance on IVF. Not to advertise, but if you Catholic ladies want a church with the exact same mass and traditions, but without the condemnation on ART, I highly suggest the Episcopal Church.

IBackBevo · April 2012

This makes me furious. What really makes me angry is this: "To have a child by in vitro almost invariably results in the death of a number of embryos as one works to bring one to term." This is an absolute, bold-faced lie. They are perpetuating misconceptions. First, I don't know how many ladies I have known who have had to go through countless rounds just to get one or two eggs. Second, they ignore the fact that embryos can be frozen for later use and can also be donated. Frankly, I can't think of a more selfless gift out there than allowing another infertile couple the ability to have a child of their own.

And I don't see how they are going to get around having violated the ADA. Even the Catholic Church has to comply with the ADA.

MoFree · April 2012

I was born and raised Catholic but left the church when I converted to DH's non-Christian religion 5 years ago. Isn't it amazing how the church turns a blind eye to priests who routinely abuse children but calls this woman a sinner. How can you respect that faith?

mandalinn25 · April 2012

I don't think that infertility is covered under the ADA sadly. I know there was another case like this awhile back and it was said that legally they have the right to fire for this reason.

According to the Catholic church not only am I a sinner for using IVF, but using donor sperm means I am a cheater and this child is a bastard too. I cannot support them anymore ever. It is disgusting. I am now a non-Christian and very happy in my decision.

IBackBevo · April 2012

mandalinn25:
This kind of stuff is why I left the church. Sadly though they legally have the right to fire her, I bet she signed a morality contract. They make all workers do it. Not that it makes it right, but it is legal.

But they don't have the right to discriminate against her on the basis of a disability and infertility is a recognized disability under the ADA pursuant to federal law. Even the Catholic Church has to comply with the ADA. They could not fire someone for seeking treatment for MS or Diabetes. Reproduction is recognized as a basic human right guaranteed by our Consitution and IF is a medical condition. I don't think this will go well for the Church...especially when you take into account the fact that the church officials knew about her treatment ahead of time and never indicated that it was a violation of her employment.

mandalinn25 · April 2012

IBackBevo:
mandalinn25:
This kind of stuff is why I left the church. Sadly though they legally have the right to fire her, I bet she signed a morality contract. They make all workers do it. Not that it makes it right, but it is legal.

But they don't have the right to discriminate against her on the basis of a disability and infertility is a recognized disability under the ADA pursuant to federal law. Even the Catholic Church has to comply with the ADA. They could not fire someone for seeking treatment for MS or Diabetes. Reproduction is recognized as a basic human right guaranteed by our Consitution and IF is a medical condition. I don't think this will go well for the Church...especially when you take into account the fact that the church officials knew about her treatment ahead of time and never indicated that it was a violation of her employment.

I think that the reason they can get away with it is because they are a private organization and have their employees sign morality clauses. I am no lawyer though, just going off of other cases I have seen in the news.

Again, I am NOT saying this is right in anyway, just that I know I have read that this has been done before and was declared legal. I think it is totally wrong and shouldn't be legal, but then again I am against a lot of stuff done out there in the name of religion.

mystic_J · April 2012

bellalou32:
jme515:
bellalou32:
MY BAD...SHE ABORTED 3 SONS, NOT 2, VIA IVF CAUSE SHE WANTED GIRLS:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345057/Couple-sons-abort-twin-boys-IVF--try-baby-girl-daughter-died.html
This article makes me physically ill, as does the Catholic Church's stance on IVF. Not to advertise, but if you Catholic ladies want a church with the exact same mass and traditions, but without the condemnation on ART, I highly suggest the Episcopal Church.
TY SO MUCH!!! I am Catholic and refuse to go to the Catholic church b/c of their views on IVF! Even though I owe no explanation and wouldn't say anything, anyways, why would I want to be a part of something that does not accept me or the way I brought a baby into the world. I have been doing research and it's really hard to compare. I appreciate you pointing this out and making a suggestion. Thank you, again!

You are very welcome!

mandalinn25 · April 2012

Here is the case I was referring to:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/12/us/12scotus-text.html

Ruthie04 · April 2012

jme515:
bellalou32:
jme515:
bellalou32:
MY BAD...SHE ABORTED 3 SONS, NOT 2, VIA IVF CAUSE SHE WANTED GIRLS:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345057/Couple-sons-abort-twin-boys-IVF--try-baby-girl-daughter-died.html
This article makes me physically ill, as does the Catholic Church's stance on IVF. Not to advertise, but if you Catholic ladies want a church with the exact same mass and traditions, but without the condemnation on ART, I highly suggest the Episcopal Church.
TY SO MUCH!!! I am Catholic and refuse to go to the Catholic church b/c of their views on IVF! Even though I owe no explanation and wouldn't say anything, anyways, why would I want to be a part of something that does not accept me or the way I brought a baby into the world. I have been doing research and it's really hard to compare. I appreciate you pointing this out and making a suggestion. Thank you, again!
You are very welcome!

I second the Episcopal rec! DH grew up in the Episcopal church and we would still go if we were not living in the middle of the Anglican vs. Episcopal showdown =(. We go to a Presbyterian (USA) church and they are also very accepting of ART.

GypsyEsq · April 2012

I don't know if this makes me a bad IFer or not but I can't get riled up about this. Infertility is protected by the ADA as a disability but only to the extent it can't be overcome. So in this case the ADA doesn't offer any protection. And as Manderlinn noted, the Church has the right to make whatever morality clause it sees fit, and it's well known that IVF and even traditional IUI are not approved by the Church (neither are contraceptives and a whole host of other reproductive "rights" that are guaranteed otherwise). I feel horribly for this woman, and as an attorney see why the EEOC upheld her complaint (a requirement before she could sue in Court) but I don't see how she wins here. It's only discrimination if the Church doesn't apply the "policy" equally. And unfortunately it sounds like, from the article, she disclosed the treatment to her employer which made her a target.

As a cradle Catholic I don't agree with a lot of the Church's teachings but, I certainly understand the Church's ability to establish their own set of moral guidelines. It's convenient for me to ignore them and go on about my life as a "sinner" but then again I don't work for the Church.

IBackBevo · April 2012

mandalinn25:

Here is the case I was referring to:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/12/us/12scotus-text.html

I didn't read the entire case, but I think the Court ruled the ADA didn't apply because the person was in a ministerial role and, therefore, the church had a first ammendment right to choose who their religious leaders were without having to adhere to the ADA or other employment laws. The lady in this case taught religion so was considered a "religious leader." However, there have been lower court cases where a person was in a non-ministerial role (like a computer science teacher) where the courts said the ADA did apply.

IBackBevo · April 2012

GypsyEsq:

I don't know if this makes me a bad IFer or not but I can't get riled up about this. Infertility is protected by the ADA as a disability but only to the extent it can't be overcome. So in this case the ADA doesn't offer any protection. And as Manderlinn noted, the Church has the right to make whatever morality clause it sees fit, and it's well known that IVF and even traditional IUI are not approved by the Church (neither are contraceptives and a whole host of other reproductive "rights" that are guaranteed otherwise). I feel horribly for this woman, and as an attorney see why the EEOC upheld her complaint (a requirement before she could sue in Court) but I don't see how she wins here. It's only discrimination if the Church doesn't apply the "policy" equally. And unfortunately it sounds like, from the article, she disclosed the treatment to her employer which made her a target.

As a cradle Catholic I don't agree with a lot of the Church's teachings but, I certainly understand the Church's ability to establish their own set of moral guidelines. It's convenient for me to ignore them and go on about my life as a "sinner" but then again I don't work for the Church.

As an attorney myself and having been involved in ADA cases before (including my husband's ADA case), I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that the ADA does not offer any protection. The one SCOTUS case involving the Church and the ADA isn't on point. Further, just within the last year there was a lower court case where a teacher in a non-ministerial role prevailed in her suit against the Catholic Church for being fired over receiving ART. Ultimately, I guess it will be for a federal judge to decide.

Gotta get back to work now...although, debating about ART and the Catholic Church is alot more fun!

GypsyEsq · April 2012

IBackBevo:
GypsyEsq:

I don't know if this makes me a bad IFer or not but I can't get riled up about this. Infertility is protected by the ADA as a disability but only to the extent it can't be overcome. So in this case the ADA doesn't offer any protection. And as Manderlinn noted, the Church has the right to make whatever morality clause it sees fit, and it's well known that IVF and even traditional IUI are not approved by the Church (neither are contraceptives and a whole host of other reproductive "rights" that are guaranteed otherwise). I feel horribly for this woman, and as an attorney see why the EEOC upheld her complaint (a requirement before she could sue in Court) but I don't see how she wins here. It's only discrimination if the Church doesn't apply the "policy" equally. And unfortunately it sounds like, from the article, she disclosed the treatment to her employer which made her a target.

As a cradle Catholic I don't agree with a lot of the Church's teachings but, I certainly understand the Church's ability to establish their own set of moral guidelines. It's convenient for me to ignore them and go on about my life as a "sinner" but then again I don't work for the Church.

As an attorney myself and having been involved in ADA cases before (including my husband's ADA case), I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that the ADA does not offer any protection. The one SCOTUS case involving the Church and the ADA isn't on point. Further, just within the last year there was a lower court case where a teacher in a non-ministerial role prevailed in her suit against the Catholic Church for being fired over receiving ART. Ultimately, I guess it will be for a federal judge to decide.

Gotta get back to work now...although, debating about ART and the Catholic Church is alot more fun!

That's fair - reasonable discourse and all. But to be clear, the SCOTUS case granting IF ADA status was based on a person's inability to conceive due to her HIV status. To me that makes that case distinguishable on its facts. The other federal cases are also likely distinguishable given the variations in IF. As an example, other cases considering application of ADA have considered IF caused by Ovarian Cancer (protected) versus IF caused by age (not protected). In the end, whether or not this particular woman's case is covered will be based on the facts of her case, and here I think she has not only a hurdle with proving ADA covers her, because this also isn't really a reasonable accomodation case. To require the Catholic Church to allow its workers to pursue IVF would force the Church to go against the Pope. I also think she has a problem with establishing unequal treatment - in the article the allegation is that because her divorced co-worker wasn't fired and her male co-workers use condoms and have had vasectomies she was unfairly singled out. While those circumstances also go against the Church dogma I can see how the argument will be that her IF treatment was substantially different.

And, I don't know how this fits in, but her contract wasn't renewed, she wasn't fired mid-year. So if she's in an at-will employment state she's got that going against her too.

Like I said, I feel badly for this woman but I'm not really sure she's got a discrimination case.

MAbride0808 · April 2012

And this is why I have left the Catholic Church. However, I'm sure this teacher was told that she had to follow church doctrine when she was hired. I was offered a job a parochial school when I first started teaching. As part of my contract was a lifestyle clause for lack of a better word. I had to sign off that I wouldn't do illegal drugs or wear revealing clothing, which is fine for a teacher. I also had to sign that I wouldn't (and never had) premarital sex. I ended up taking a public school year based on money, but it was nuts what they wanted the teachers to pledge to.

lovebug33 · April 2012

MAbride0808:
And this is why I have left the Catholic Church. However, I'm sure this teacher was told that she had to follow church doctrine when she was hired. I was offered a job a parochial school when I first started teaching. As part of my contract was a lifestyle clause for lack of a better word. I had to sign off that I wouldn't do illegal drugs or wear revealing clothing, which is fine for a teacher. I also had to sign that I wouldn't (and never had) premarital sex. I ended up taking a public school year based on money, but it was nuts what they wanted the teachers to pledge to.

I'm sorry, but how would they know if you had premarital sex? Were they going to do random tests or just ask you? How silly!

FraggleChic · April 2012

I just wrote an incredibly long blog about this very issue today. My husband and I have decided to leave the Church and this was the final push we needed in a long line of other issues we have with the Church's teachings.

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