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Passport saga continued- advice needed

SigirSigir member
in Blended Families

So, I ended up sending exh a copy of dc's passport when he requested it, with the rationale that he could not take dc anywhere without the actual passport, and trying to get along. Exh has not given details of this trip beyond the dates, but dc has told me it is a disney cruise over labor day weekend. 

Since then, we have had two motions go back and forth and I know exh is fuming (see my post below).  When he gets like this I get so paranoid and wonder what he is going to do.  I have business travel coming up and will be away from 4/20 - 4/26, and last night I was talking with dh about how I am paranoid that exh will take advantage of this long period of time that I will not be seeing dc and take dc.  Dh thinks I am crazy, but when exh gets so angry I don't put anything past him (and I have the history and experience with exh that dh does not).

So today, exh sent me a note requesting delivery of the passport to him by this friday "because he does not want to wait until the last minute to get it".  He still has not provided me any details about the trip beyond the dates.  My momma- instinct is going off like crazy, but I know I could just be being paranoid... but I also know how he can be when he is angry. 

I guess its crazy to think he could be planning on kidnapping dc, but I don't want to give him the passport so far in advance.  I am thinking of saying "I will provide the passport 14 days prior to travel.  Also, per our CO please provide all the pertinent details of the travel."  I know this will make him even angrier, and I dread that, but there is nothing in the CO that covers who holds the passport and the requirements for passport hand off.  I also know that once he has it, I will never get it back again until I book an international trip.  I am the primary residential custodian, but we have joint legal custody and nothing is in the agreement about who holds the passport. 

What do you all think- am I being crazy?  Would you withhold the passport until 14 days prior to the trip, no matter how much be screams and rages (which I know he will do).   He will scream and rage because he will say I am being too controlling.  But I just don't see any need for him to have it 4 months before a trip.  Is this just me being difficult?

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Re: Passport saga continued- advice needed

  • PrettyInPearls23PrettyInPearls23 member

    Tell him that you'll hand the passport over once you have (in writing) all of the following:

     Dates of the trip

    Locations your child will be travelling to (countries, cities, etc)

    Flight numbers (if applicable)

    Name of cruise ship (if truly applicable)

    Those are all reasonable pieces of information for him to divulge. Your child is travelling internationally -- you have every right to know the important details. It's not like you're asking for what shore excurisions they're going on or something like that.

    He'll likely be pissed and say you're trying to control the situation (I have an XH like that as well). Just calmly explain to him that you're not going to give him what he wants until he gives you what you want.

    And yes, I think that 14 days is ample time. He has no need for it any sooner than that.

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  • blondnearbyblondnearby
    I don't see why he would need the passport in advance at all.  I would tell him you will hand over the passport when you hand over the child.  I would also see if you can get a signed CO stating that the passport be returned to you along with the child immediately following the vacation.  I would also stipulate that if you do not receive the details of the trip at least 14 days in advance of the trip then your DC will not be participating in the trip.  I don't mess around with things like that especially if you can't say that your EX would never take your child.
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  • WahooWahoo member

    While you have the lawyer working for you for the financial motions, can you get him to alter the CO to have you as the passport holder?

    I would not OK an international trip or hand over a passport until I knew the itinerary (sp?).  If I did not think a location was safe (ie: the Middle East, possibly some cities in Central or South America or the Caribbean), my child would not be going. 

    How much to worry about parental kidnapping has to do with a lot of factors - does he have a family / roots in another country?  Particularly one that doesn't take into consideration US courts decisions?  Can he move his job to aother country?  Would he lose his most valuable asset (house) by moving?  If that is no realistic, then I would not worry, but then again I would still not hand over the passport without knowing where DC is going! 

     

    image "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
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  • FutureMrsWittigFutureMrsWittig member

    Yeah, this is throwing up some red flags for me too.  And I don't even know the guy.

    I'd respond, "I will provide the passport 14 days before your trip and will expect it be returned to me upon your return.  As per our CO, I will require a written itinerary including contact information before I will surrender the passport.  I completely understand not wanting to leave it until the last minute, I feel exactly the same way.  I'm glad DC will have this opportunity to travel internationally."

    You're not being unreasonable, you're not being controlling.  If he says you are, do not engage him, just respond with "I'm sorry you feel that way."  That should be your go-to response any time he attacks you.  It doesn't leave a lot of room for argument.  It's polite, empathetic, but doesn't accept or assign any blame.  Make it your new mantra.

    If it makes you feel any better the law is supposed to require a signed letter of consent for a child to travel internationally with only one parent (last we checked).

    Mama of 2: one who grew in my womb, both who grow in my heart.
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  • Holly_1007Holly_1007 member

    ditto pretty in pearls

    14 days is PLENTY of time for him to have the passport. I would be nervous he would lose it with 4 months time. 

    When you write the note you can say that you will give him the passport within 14 days of him leaving for the trip (after he gives you all the details) and then say you would like it back within 14 days of return

    Even though there is nothign in the CO about the passport, who is the one that paid for it/ took DS to get it? Thats who it should reside with. 

    As a mom, I would NEED to know flight numbers of any flights my child would be on, and also an emergency contact number, either for a hotel or the cruise line, since its international travel most cell phones won't work. 

                           
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  • SigirSigir member

    Thanks for your input.  My dh thinks I am crazy for thinking this, but what I have seen is that exh has done some things throughout this separation and divorce that I never would have thought in a million years he would have done, ever... so I don't trust his motives anymore.  He does not have any contacts in foreign countries, but he does not have any assets here anymore either. The only thing holding him here would be his job, but he does not have a home (apt only).

    My dh thinks he is timing this to just try to put the fear into my head... I guess he could be right, but I feel like I need to be conservative if I have a momma-instinct bad feeling about something.

    I am going to ask my lawyer about the passport transfer/ holder stuff.  It's amazing how much stuff you don't think to put into the original CO, that you end up needing.  ugh.

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  • KristenFMRKristenFMR member

    I can weigh in on why he may want the passport in advance.  You cleary have a contentious relationship so that may be why some of this stuff happens.  We took my SS on a cruise this past month and we wanted the passport well in advance of the final payment.  If you will not be using it yourself then why not give it to him. Because my DH's ex pulls so much garbage we wanted the passport in advance because that was the only piece she really controlled in preventing us from going on vacation.

     We were concerned that we would pay for the trip in full and then she would refuse to give us the passport and we would lose out on about $5K.  I am not implying that you would do so but maybe that is his concern.  I do think however that he needs to provide you with the details of the trip as far as the dates and where he is going. 

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  • SigirSigir member

    and actually, I have thought of a logistical reason not to give it to him so far in advance (really based off your question about 'why not give it to him', Kristen, so thanks for that!).  During all the moves after the separation/ divorce I lost dc's social security card, and to get a new one you have to go in person.  Because I work and don't want to talk time off to do it, I had planned to go this summer when on maternity leave... and I need the passport for that!

    I will point that out in my response... not that it will reduce the raging and screaming at all I am sure, but it might help.  I forgot all about that.  Stick out tongue

    I am so grateful to have you all as a sounding board and to talk things out with, it really does help me.   thank you.

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  • Littlejen22Littlejen22 member
    I would not hand it over without written itenary but know you might NEVER get it back or get permission to get a renewal so you might never be able to take your child out of the country until they are 18. Your other option is to completely refuse to allow him to take the child out of the country if you are that worried but expect him to go to court over it and if you win he will never give permission and I assume he can probably do something legally to stop the passport from being allowed to be used. 
    Jen - Mom to two December 12 babies Nathaniel 12/12/06 and Addison 12/12/08
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  • fellesferiefellesferie member

    There's no way in hell I'd hand it over like that. 

    I'd want the itinerary, flight numbers, ways to contact DC while on the cruise, and specifics on when they will return to the US.

    And since your relationship is so contentious, I might ask that he give you a notarized statement saying he'll return the passport on X date. 

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  • FriskyPandaFriskyPanda

    I too wouldn't turn over the passport this far in advance, but someone (can't remember who) had a legit comment about him being concerned you won't let DC go at the last minute, and wants to be sure he has the passport so that won't happen.

    Would you feel better if you just waited until after your work trip?  If so, I'd just tell him the passport is in a safety deposit box, and with your work trip you won't have time to run by and get it until after you get back.  Yes, I would lie in an attempt to keep the peace.

     

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  • GwenillianGwenillian member

    imageblondnearby:
    I don't see why he would need the passport in advance at all.  I would tell him you will hand over the passport when you hand over the child.  I would also see if you can get a signed CO stating that the passport be returned to you along with the child immediately following the vacation.  I would also stipulate that if you do not receive the details of the trip at least 14 days in advance of the trip then your DC will not be participating in the trip.  I don't mess around with things like that especially if you can't say that your EX would never take your child.

     All of this. He can be paranoid about whether or not you'll hand it over all he wants - he doesn't need it until he needs it & he isn't being cooperative with the requirements of your CO. My DH always thought I was paranoid too - until EH actually did exactly what I said he was going to enough times.

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  • Karma1969Karma1969 member

    I don't think you are crazy.  I would be very worried about it.  I'm stating again that I watch Lifetime so I tend to think the worst.

    Where do you live?  Is Canada or Mexico near by you so you can do a quick weekend trip and need the passport back?  I live an hour from Canada so it would be no big deal to pop over there for a lunch if I was worried.

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  • DarthNBJenniDarthNBJenni
    I wouldn't hand it over. Ever. He could take me to court to get it, and that way a judge would have some hand in the passport issues (ie. me getting it back). I'd prefer my children not to travel out of this country without me (then again, their dad isn't all that active in their lives, and I wouldn't put it past him to run off just to spite me).

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  • fauxshelleyfauxshelley member

    He doesn't need a passport for a closed loop cruise.  As long as the cruise originates and ends at the same US port, a certified birth certificate will work fine.  I know this because last year I took my DD on a Disney cruise because my XH wouldn't allow me to get her a passport.  Don't back dowm.  Don't hand over the passport if you think he is capable of kidnapping your son!

    *Edited

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  • NineoceansNineoceans member
    As long as you share legal custody he has as much right to the passport as you. I don't have the history obviously but this is something you will most likely lose in court over. BM wanted to hold SS's passport or prevent us from taking him on a cruise and the judge laughed in her face. BM even has a history of fleeing the state with SS but if and when she wants to take him out of country she has 50% legal rights and the right to the passport as long as she gives us 14 days notice and a copy of the itinerary. If you want to change that stipulation change your CO.
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  • Littlejen22Littlejen22 member
    imagefauxshelley:

    He doesn't need a passport for a closed loop cruise.  As long as the cruise originates and ends at the same US port, a certified birth certificate will work fine.  I know this because last year I took my DD on a Disney cruise because my XH wouldn't allow me to get her a passport.  Don't back dowm.  Don't hand over the passport if you think he is capable of kidnapping your son!

    *Edited

    I would definitely tell him that until he tells you when and where he is going that you will not hand anything over to him.  If he gives into for a cruise and you validate the info from fauxshelley from somewhere else (not that I don't believe her, she surely always seems straightforward on here, lol) I would tell him that it is not needed and becaue it is not needed you want to confirm if he has a birth certificate on hand and if not you will get one for him. 

    Jen - Mom to two December 12 babies Nathaniel 12/12/06 and Addison 12/12/08
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  • Ginlyn0Ginlyn0 member
    imageLittlejen22:
    imagefauxshelley:

    He doesn't need a passport for a closed loop cruise.  As long as the cruise originates and ends at the same US port, a certified birth certificate will work fine.  I know this because last year I took my DD on a Disney cruise because my XH wouldn't allow me to get her a passport.  Don't back dowm.  Don't hand over the passport if you think he is capable of kidnapping your son!

    *Edited

    I would definitely tell him that until he tells you when and where he is going that you will not hand anything over to him.  If he gives into for a cruise and you validate the info from fauxshelley from somewhere else (not that I don't believe her, she surely always seems straightforward on here, lol) I would tell him that it is not needed and becaue it is not needed you want to confirm if he has a birth certificate on hand and if not you will get one for him. 

    I've heard the same about cruises not needing a passport. A quick search on the Disney cruise site shows this:  

     https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/planning-center/planning-library/travel-documentation-bahamian-caribbean/

    Sorry no clicky on my mobile. 

    DD(14),SD(13),SS(11),SS(9),DS(3)

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  • WahooWahoo member

    I'm not a travel expert, but I think the need for a passport on a cruise is determined on whether or not you disembark.  So, you may or may not need a passport for a cruise depending on there the cruise ship lands and whether or not your ex plans to get off the ship and do an excursion.

    But - - if the cruise is only to US territories (for example, Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands) or there are no plans to disembark, then the passport is not needed.

    image "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
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  • SusanH.SusanH. member

    if I were you there is no way I would tell him I need the passport to replace the SS card I lost!  That is only ammunition for him to say you are irresponsible and for that reason HE should hold the passport!!!

     

     

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  • SigirSigir member
    imageSusanH.:

    if I were you there is no way I would tell him I need the passport to replace the SS card I lost!  That is only ammunition for him to say you are irresponsible and for that reason HE should hold the passport!!!

     

     

     

    That is a really good point.  Actually, DH has suggested that I use the 'replacement ss card' as a way to get the passport back after the trip

    I know that since it is not in the CO I have no real legal right to hold the passport vs. him,  and I definitely don't want to stand in dc's way of going on a great trip.  I don't do stuff like that.  But if he really does not need it for a disney cruise, I don't really want to give it to him... but really, he has as much right to it as me.  I just don't see why he needs it so early, and I would prefer not to give it to him at a time when I will be away for so long, and tensions and tempers are so high.  Why do things have to be so complicated?    

    I guess I have to figure it out today, so that I can respond.

    Thanks for all of your input, you have given me a lot to think about!

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  • fauxshelleyfauxshelley member
    imageWahoo:

    I'm not a travel expert, but I think the need for a passport on a cruise is determined on whether or not you disembark.  So, you may or may not need a passport for a cruise depending on there the cruise ship lands and whether or not your ex plans to get off the ship and do an excursion.

    But - - if the cruise is only to US territories (for example, Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands) or there are no plans to disembark, then the passport is not needed.

    My DD was able to disembark in the Bahamas with just a certified birth certificate.

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  • aggy34aggy34 member
    Can you say it is in your safety deposit box and you don't have time to go get it right now but will as soon as you have the time?  I use to keep mine in our safety deposit box for safe keeping and because I was bad about misplacing things in our old house.
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