Insert motherly advice here...please?

LukeAndAmanda · April 2012

I'm really at a loss on how to deal with DD. She'll be four in a couple weeks, but we've been having issues as far back as I can remember. It's gotten worse in the last couple months though.

She will not behave. She talks back, yells, and is just downright nasty. She is constantly hurting her brother, and lashing out in any way possible. As much as I'd say its jealousy because of her brother, he's been around for over a year...I imagine it would've worn off by now. I have tried every disciplinary action I can wrap my head around. I try to stick with that specific punishment for a week or two before trying something else, but nothing sticks. Time out, taking a toy away, sending her to her room, positive reinforcement (although I always try to be extra positive with her), ignoring her. If we do time out, we battle her sitting there for an hour. If we take her toys away, she stomps into her room and finds something else to destroy. If I send her to her room, she goes in there and throws all the clothes out of the dresser and throws things at the door. If I ignore her, she just yells louder and louder. Bribing is pointless. I refuse to reward my child to make her behave.

I HATE spending most of my day telling her no or trying not to yell at her. She is constantly saying no, or yelling NOW because she wants something and you didn't get it for her fast enough. I don't want our relationship to be like that. I want to hope that this is a phase, and that she'll outgrow it like most children, but she's been getting worse as long as I can remember. It's definitely not for a lack of trying, as I am and have tried everything I thought would work. But I don't want to hope it's a phase and she just gets worse. I don't want her to be "that kid". I'm hoping that starting preschool in a couple months will help, but I don't want either of us to lose our minds in the process. I'll take any constructive criticism you have to offer!

schnappycat · April 2012

I have no great advice, but have been in nearly that exact situation with DS. Honestly, age 3-4 was HELLISH with him, and particulary 3.5-4 was awful. He was terrible to his sister, hit her and us, was just mean/spiteful/aggressive, etc. I was at wit's end and even took him to a therapist to make sure it wasn't beyond normal.

Nothing I did really changed, but I will say that he's been quite a bit better since turning 4. I think preschool helped him learn to deal better with is feelings (they work a lot on taking deep breaths to manage anger, teach how to get attention in "nice" ways, etc.) and I think just a little additional maturity has helped as well. HIs teachers just told me that they have seen a huge growth in him emotionally. Plus, as DD gets older and is able to play "with" him more, he is seeing her as more of a friend/playmate and less of an annoyance and something to take attention away from him. He is still mean to her from time to time, but it has gotten much better in general. Plus, she will now fight back and that freaks him out!

GL! I'm sure other people might have better advice, but hang in there. Hopefully she will just get better with age like my DS appears to have done.

KathrynMD · April 2012

first of all, hugs!

how is she w/ other kids, other adults?

Are you nitpicking her w/ a rules/corrections constantly or are you limiting discipline/correction to things that are really dangerous to her/other?

Have you tried giving her a very limited list of rules to follow - and write them down, talk about them every day, several times a day? I try to limit my expectations for DD - and the bottom line rules are no yelling/screaming inside, listen to Mommy & Daddy. She rarely hits, except when she's playing too rough, so I mostly ignore it and/or just walk away when that happens.

I try to defuse DD alot of the time when she gets wound up (and it helps me calm down too); depending on the situation, I'll either pick her up sideways/do a silly voice or get down on her level and ask her for a hug.

LukeAndAmanda · April 2012

how is she w/ other kids, other adults? She's fine with other kids. Plays well, has a great imagination, and shares and plays together well. She still acts up around my parents (who have moved and she only sees once a month or so now), but for the most part, people think I'm overreacting when I say how awful she behaves at home. It's like night and day for the most part.

Are you nitpicking her w/ a rules/corrections constantly or are you limiting discipline/correction to things that are really dangerous to her/other? I really try not to, but its hard when she's acting up constantly. I really try to pick and choose my battles, but she doesn't really do anything dangerous other than trying to hurt DS. I have found him with a blanket over him, and her sitting on top of him. Other than that, the majority of our problems are the disobeying and the talking back. She literally tells me no everytime I ask her to do something. And everything is "I said NOW". I mean I really try to avert her attention, or change the subject, but at the same time, I can't let her think it's okay to talk to anyone like that, let alone her own parents.

KathrynMD · April 2012

LukeAndAmanda:

how is she w/ other kids, other adults? She's fine with other kids. Plays well, has a great imagination, and shares and plays together well. She still acts up around my parents (who have moved and she only sees once a month or so now), but for the most part, people think I'm overreacting when I say how awful she behaves at home. It's like night and day for the most part.

Are you nitpicking her w/ a rules/corrections constantly or are you limiting discipline/correction to things that are really dangerous to her/other? I really try not to, but its hard when she's acting up constantly. I really try to pick and choose my battles, but she doesn't really do anything dangerous other than trying to hurt DS. I have found him with a blanket over him, and her sitting on top of him. Other than that, the majority of our problems are the disobeying and the talking back. She literally tells me no everytime I ask her to do something. And everything is "I said NOW". I mean I really try to avert her attention, or change the subject, but at the same time, I can't let her think it's okay to talk to anyone like that, let alone her own parents.

You know the "I said NOW" is probably a direct quote from you, right? Instead of saying "I said now!" or getting annoyed she's not doing whatever immediately, stop phrasing it as a yes or no questions or a command - try do you want to go to bed in 3 minutes or 10 minutes? Or, do you want to pick up the blue toys or the pink toys first, do you want to read 2 books or 3 books tonight?

I ask for help alot too - at the grocery store, I do a lot of "can you help me find pulls up/fruit snacks/bananas" whatever thing I know she can reliably find - and then she spends all her time on the look out for them while I pick up things and then VOILA when we get to the fruit snack aisle and she spots them, she's so proud of herself for helping.

She needs to be a little sassy at this age, you know, she's asserting herself and her independence. I think you need to ignore a little of the sass, b/c if you don't you'll go BSC - relax a little bit on the minor stuff and try to get ahead of her and anticipate what she's likely to misbehave over - and then lay down the rules in advance.

mavs_girl07 · April 2012

I agree with pp that sass is normal at this age unfortunately. DD can be very sassy and spiteful and just plain mean sometimes. I really have to watch what I say because she will repeat to me the same things I say to her when I'm frustrated (like "right now!") When it comes to back-talk and just being sassy, DH and I are both on the same page that we do.not.ever respond to something she wants unless she asks for it politely. If she starts in with the whining or the demanding, we get very stern and say "No ma'am. That is not how you ask for things. You need to ask nicely." Then after that she'll usually ask in a nice way. If she doesn't and she keeps whining or demanding, we just stay firm with "Not until you ask nicely."

We also had the same issue as you, where it didn't really seem like any kind of discipline worked. Timeouts, taking toys away, etc. Finally about 4 months ago, she started to really enjoy playing board games and we incorporated game time into our evening routine. So every night after DS is in bed, DD and DH and I play a board game of her choice for 15-20mins. It seems to have helped things, honestly. It gives her one-on-one attention with us, with no distractions from DS. She gets to pick the game, which she loves. AND it gives us something to take away if she's having particularly bad behavior one day. Since she loves this game time so much, it really does affect her if we take it away.

I'm really hating this stage that we're in right now. I feel like she's constantly in a foul mood, and she gets worked up over the craziest things. But from what I hear and read, it's totally normal unfortunately. You're not alone!

KL777 · April 2012

Sorry things are going so rough. I have (and still have) some rough times with DS. One of many things that can be done---- I would recommend praying that she behaves better and have her pray that prayer with you, to be respectful, obedient, and to listen the first time. In addition, a spanking or two might help (as appropriate, ofcourse). Hang in there.

FriskyPanda · April 2012

I'm on my phone so I'll try to be brief. DD has been in therapy and we've learned alot about communicating with her and her behavior has improved remarkably (until this week, but testing is normal).

Anyway, when DD is rude instead of reminding her to use her manners, I ask if she left her manners somewhere and should we go to xyz to find them. She usually giggles and re-asks using her manners. When she remembers to say please and thank you she's started pointing out that she didn't forget her manners anywhere.

We've also started using a 3 step approach to communicating with her. First we acknowledge her feelings, then restate the limit and target the alternative. So if she is bothering the cat I would say "it's so much fun to play with the cat isn't it? But now is not the time, or the cat doesn't want to play right now. Let's come over here and pick out what book to read".

Something that has helped has been stating her feelings. If she's having a meltdown I just say "you're really sad/angry/frustrated". I'll do his when she's Havin a general meltdown with then restatingt he limit and targeting the alternative so it would be "you are really frustrated that you can't stay up later, but it is bedtime right now. Help me pick out your nightgown or books or whatever"

Good luck, it's so frustrating.

FriskyPanda · April 2012

It also helped me to realize that there are things cannot do independently at this point. As much as I would like for her to be more independent in the mornings, I still have to stand over her for bathroom stuff. I can usually leave her for a few minutes with one instruction (when you're done washing your hands be sure to brush your teeth) but most of the time I'm nearby asking "ok, so what do we do next?"

FriskyPanda · April 2012

Oh and small choices. To determine small or big choice, I try to think is this optional? Eating veggies at dinner is not optional so she doesn't get to make that choice, I may let her pick out which veggie we have with dinner and/or may ask her if she is going to have 2 or 3 more bites.

jlw2505 · April 2012

Deep breaths - for both of you. If you not already read 1 2 3 Magic and Parenting with Love and Logic - use both and then pick and choose what will work for you out of both books. My kids are almost 6 and 4 so I totally get what you are going through. Some of this is just a phase - 4 year olds want to be independent but can't always be at least not in the manner that they choose and as others have said, sassyiness comes with this age big time. I do a lot of giving options with my girls (always 2 options that I can live with). I make things a game (who can pick up the most blocks in 1 min before the timer goes off). We do silly or dance breaks when I can see that my girls just need to let go for a bit and jumping breaks when they can't sit still at say dinner - they can get up, walk into the other room and jump around for a min and then come back. I pick and choose what really counts and then focus on the big things. Keeping the kids on track (older has ADHD) is something that I do but in a more "hey, let's keep moving and get changed so we have time to read before bed" manner vs "get changed now" tone. When they are getting to wild, we count to 10 or we take deep relaxing breaths. Sometimes simple touching the girls or putting a little weight on their shoulders with my hands brings them back down to a calm place. We are very into routine in our house - on school days (I work so kids are in daycare/PreK 5 full days a week) the morning routine is always the same regardless of if DH or I get them up. Bedtime routine is also always the same. Weekends is not the same but we always tell them upfront what will happen and in what order - get up, go potty, can snuggle and watch a little TV while DH or I get breakfast ready, after breakfast we are all going to get dressed and brush our teeth/hair and then we are going to head to the park/store/wheverever. My older DD really, really needs time to transistion so about 5 mins before we have a change in what we are doing - I give a warning and then I repeat it with 2 mins left. Biggest thing of all is being consistent in everything. Oh and I only use time outs as a cool down thing not as a punishment - punishments in our house are loosing things - a toy, a book, ipod time or an outing. Last weekend, DH was taking the girls out to play in the yard but older DD wasn't listening so only younger DD got to go outside while DD had to stay inside, calm down, talk to me about what happened and then apologize. She was able to go outside about 15 mins after DD (they were only going out for 30 mins before lunch). Trust me, it works as she saw she was missing something fun. Taking toys/books away just does not work for all kids. I sort of find the item of the moment - younger DD lied to me about something and when I asked her to head to her room until she was ready to talk about the truth, she asked if she could play with her music box while in there - I told her no that her music box was in time out due to her lying and that she would get it back the next day if she was ready to tell me the truth.

KathrynMD · April 2012

op - you might also want to work on strategies for both of you to calm down.

When DD starts getting wound up (whether she's mad or sad); I try to remind her take 2 deep breaths and count to 3 and then start again. At least 90% of the time that helps her calm down and it gives me a chance to think too and then we can normally find a solution that works.

livinitup · April 2012

LukeAndAmanda:

I try to stick with that specific punishment for a week or two before trying something else, but nothing sticks.

That doesn't sound like a very long time. A week? You may need to think through a stragety and implement it for a much longer period of time. Plus, she's going to resist anything that starts to work in your favor, so you are going to have to show her that you are in it for the long haul. Like months.

Plus, I don't think of it as "punishment" for a 3-4 yo. It's very much teaching and reinforcing and guiding LO to the right way to act in the family and be in the world.

Time out, taking a toy away, sending her to her room, positive reinforcement (although I always try to be extra positive with her), ignoring her.

If we do time out, we battle her sitting there for an hour. That's not really doing TO. An effective TO doesn't engage with the child -if you battle, you already loose.

If we take her toys away, she stomps into her room and finds something else to destroy. Why does she have unlimted access to all of her toys? You see what's going on, you need to reverse things so she gets a toy for good behavior - she earns them back. And be willing to deal with the sh!tstorm that will happend when you take back control of her toy access. But stick with it. Let her learn that get she gets what she wants when she acts properly.

If I send her to her room, she goes in there and throws all the clothes out of the dresser and throws things at the door.

Then what? Do you clean-up the mess, or does she? Does she just wear you down? Does she get any consequences for this new, escalated bad behavior?

If I ignore her, she just yells louder and louder.

So? Are you saying she just gets too loud until you cave? Ignoring may not be a good intervention in what sounds like a loud chaotic situation, but ignoring is a technique that is often met with strong resistence until YOU show you mean it.

Bribing is pointless. I refuse to reward my child to make her behave.

Positive reinforcement is often very effective with bright, energetic children. It's not bribing. (I hardly think cash would do it anyway.) But reinforcing good behaviors with postive feedback and teaching that good behavior brings good things - works. It also feels like good parenting and communication.

I HATE spending most of my day telling her no or trying not to yell at her. She is constantly saying no, or yelling NOW because she wants something and you didn't get it for her fast enough.

Do you respond to the NOW command? Do you rush for her? Because I think you need to teach her that "Now" means you will never do it.

I don't want our relationship to be like that.

Spend some time really thinking about how you WANT to interact with her and then structure your day to make that possible. Right now, you're reacting, you're in coping mode. What would a really good day look like? How would conflict be handled? And what would you have to do differently to achieve that?

I want to hope that this is a phase, and that she'll outgrow it like most children, but she's been getting worse as long as I can remember. It's definitely not for a lack of trying, as I am and have tried everything I thought would work. But I don't want to hope it's a phase and she just gets worse. I don't want her to be "that kid". I'm hoping that starting preschool in a couple months will help, but I don't want either of us to lose our minds in the process. I'll take any constructive criticism you have to offer!

mrswright2006 · April 2012

DD has been the same way for the last year. I don't have any real advice as to how to stop it, since DD is still a bear most days (although age has helped tame the angst). As for throwing stuff in her room, we nipped that in the bud, by making a rule, if she throws it, it gets taken away. She ended up on a bare bed with NOTHING in her room for several nights, and no furniture (other than her bed and dresser) for a few months. She earned stuff back, slowly. Now, she thinks twice before throwing things.

Asquared · April 2012

Isn't a good thing she's so cute- I swear that keeps my girls from getting kicked out of the window some days!! I gave spankings a try when my oldest wouldn't learn to stop hurting her sister- taught her a little empathy and she finally learned. "Strong willed child" has some good ideas on really taking note and saying specific good behaviors that you are seeing to help reinforce them. Take a 10 minute chunk every day for a while and just focus on her and just like a sports announcer, say "You're concentrating on that puzzle and getting it!".

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