what is the science?

mm29 · March 2012

Behind the day an embryo is transferred? ths was my RE explained it, is that of an embryo lives in vitro for 5 days it will live 5.days in the Ute, but not ass much odds known about the embryo. So if I end up with a bfn it is less likely to know why. Am I unstanding this correctly? There has to be more to the science behind it. I really do not want to google this right now. I know you wonderful ladies will have the answer!

SweetDahlia · March 2012

I have never made it to a 5 day. My RE insisted over and over the last 6 weeks we would do a 5 day. Then he said when I only had the one we would do a 3 day.

I think they know more about it, and also really a 3day would still be in the tube, not your uterus.

I had a 3 day work. So many people shared their stories with me too. I am sorry you are dealing with this. I hope it all works out.

vanessagorc · March 2012

Going to 5 day is a really good dx tool. U can see if ur embies make it to blast, and the state of the blast. If they can't get to blast in the lab, the pretty much don't do it in the ute.

3 days can work too, but they obviously would have made it to 5 days...if left in the tube,

Both of my 5 days worked, both of my 3 days failed. I always had a good number of embies on day 3, so in my case...i need to go to 5 to see what embies are best. I'm confident that both of my 3dt, never made it to blast...and arrested inside my ute.

I didn't need the false hope, my re and i agreed that id never do a 3dt again. But every case is different.

lynn0926 · March 2012

I have wondered the same thing. I see with DE cycles on the profiles of proven donors, they get like 25 ER, and by the time 2 are transferred at blast, there are like 3-6 to freeze. They lose so many in the process. Why does this happen? What makes the risk of losing all the embies greater than just doing a 3dt?

vanessagorc · March 2012

lynn0926:
I have wondered the same thing. I see with DE cycles on the profiles of proven donors, they get like 25 ER, and by the time 2 are transferred at blast, there are like 3-6 to freeze. They lose so many in the process. Why does this happen? What makes the risk of losing all the embies greater than just doing a 3dt?

The reasoning behind this is bc the percentage of embies that actually make babies is sooooo low, compared to the number of eggs/embies. Not just in IF patients, in all women.

As my RE says, human reproduction is inefficient.

Have u ever seen when people freeze on day 3, they usually have to defrost several to get ones that are viable.

There is no risk in doing the 3dt, but it can give false hope. 3 dt can (and do work), but they still would have worked as 5dt. The inverse does not apply, bc on day 3....if u have a lot of embies, u can't really tell which will be the best.

lynn0926 · March 2012

vanessagorc:
lynn0926:
I have wondered the same thing. I see with DE cycles on the profiles of proven donors, they get like 25 ER, and by the time 2 are transferred at blast, there are like 3-6 to freeze. They lose so many in the process. Why does this happen? What makes the risk of losing all the embies greater than just doing a 3dt?

The reasoning behind this is bc the percentage of embies that actually make babies is sooooo low, compared to the number of eggs/embies. Not just in IF patients, in all women.

As my RE says, human reproduction is inefficient.

Have u ever seen when people freeze on day 3, they usually have to defrost several to get ones that are viable.

There is no risk in doing the 3dt, but it can give false hope. 3 dt can (and do work), but they still would have worked as 5dt. The inverse does not apply, bc on day 3....if u have a lot of embies, u can't really tell which will be the best.

Thank you for the clarification. So, if you make it to a 5dt, are the chances very high that it will be a successful pregnancy?

vanessagorc · March 2012

lynn0926:
vanessagorc:

lynn0926:
I have wondered the same thing. I see with DE cycles on the profiles of proven donors, they get like 25 ER, and by the time 2 are transferred at blast, there are like 3-6 to freeze. They lose so many in the process. Why does this happen? What makes the risk of losing all the embies greater than just doing a 3dt?

The reasoning behind this is bc the percentage of embies that actually make babies is sooooo low, compared to the number of eggs/embies. Not just in IF patients, in all women.

As my RE says, human reproduction is inefficient.

Have u ever seen when people freeze on day 3, they usually have to defrost several to get ones that are viable.

There is no risk in doing the 3dt, but it can give false hope. 3 dt can (and do work), but they still would have worked as 5dt. The inverse does not apply, bc on day 3....if u have a lot of embies, u can't really tell which will be the best.

Thank you for the clarification. So, if you make it to a 5dt, are the chances very high that it will be a successful pregnancy?

Well, u can't really say that lol...but u know u are putting in a blast, and u know the quality of it. Basically transferring 2 blasts is equivalent to transferring something like 5 day 3 embies.

So if u have blasts, and they are of good quality....u should have a decent shot of implantion. Barring anything else going on in ur ute.

ThereBeDragons · March 2012

In a clinic that is focused on culturing embryos to day 5 (some specialize in day 3 and everything in this post is set aside for those clinics. Going to day 5 at a clinic that specializes in day 3 transfers can actually do more harm than good since they don't have the experience with the extended culturing) the petri dish culture is very very good- they've been working on the formulas for 20 years now. They wouldn't go to day 5 if there was an appreciable decrease in pregnancies. Actually there is a notable increase in pregnancies per transfer when you culture out to day 5.

Imagine if you've got 20 that make it to day 3- then you've got 18 frosties.... two or even three at a time you wind up with 6-9 transfers- and many of those 20 weren't even competent enough to make it to day 5 in your uterus.

If, for example only 6 were competent enough to go to day 5 and of those 6, three were competent enough to sustain a full term pregnancy- you might have 4-5 transfers (or more) before you find one of those three.

Both cycles I had 8 embryos make it to day 3.

It sounds awesome to say I transferred two day3's and got 6 frosties but if I'm transferring 2 each time- I'm paying for the IVF and three FETs. And in my case- of those 8 day 3 embryos (IVF1) only two were capable of implanting and neither made it to full term. By taking it out to day 5- I had to endure one less failed transfer.

If all you want is to transfer over and over- then there's no harm in transferring tons of d3s. Day 5 increases the chance of pregnancy per transfer though- so if you have a lot of embryos at day 3, it's usually a good idea to try for a 5 day transfer.

illinigal · March 2012

I think that monitoring to day 5 allows to see which are the best. IVFs 1 and 2, I had 3 day transfers and got BFNs. Then I switched clinics and my new one tries to get everyone to day 5. IVF 3 I did a day 5 transfer and got our twins that we lost. Good luck whatever you decide!

mm29 · March 2012

vanessagorc:
lynn0926:
vanessagorc:

lynn0926:
I have wondered the same thing. I see with DE cycles on the profiles of proven donors, they get like 25 ER, and by the time 2 are transferred at blast, there are like 3-6 to freeze. They lose so many in the process. Why does this happen? What makes the risk of losing all the embies greater than just doing a 3dt?

The reasoning behind this is bc the percentage of embies that actually make babies is sooooo low, compared to the number of eggs/embies. Not just in IF patients, in all women.

As my RE says, human reproduction is inefficient.

Have u ever seen when people freeze on day 3, they usually have to defrost several to get ones that are viable.

There is no risk in doing the 3dt, but it can give false hope. 3 dt can (and do work), but they still would have worked as 5dt. The inverse does not apply, bc on day 3....if u have a lot of embies, u can't really tell which will be the best.

Thank you for the clarification. So, if you make it to a 5dt, are the chances very high that it will be a successful pregnancy?

Well, u can't really say that lol...but u know u are putting in a blast, and u know the quality of it. Basically transferring 2 blasts is equivalent to transferring something like 5 day 3 embies.
So if u have blasts, and they are of good quality....u should have a decent shot of implantion. Barring anything else going on in ur ute.

this was/is my understanding. Thanks ladies for the help answering my question. This makes my decision a little easier.

may2806 · April 2012

I think the advantage to a 5dt is that the dr can see which embies are best. But if you only have one, I'm not quite sure what the advantage is in doing a 5dt. Yes, you can maybe learn about the quality of the embryo, but with only one I think it would be difficult to diagnose a quality problem since you don't have a larger sample to look at. It might vary from clinic to clinic, but I've heard that the success rates of 3 vs 5dt are the same. Good luck!

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