Somewhat flameful -- gifted vs. redshirting

august06mom · March 2012

A friend of mine was going on and on about how she's been pushing her son's school to test him for their gifted program because of how far ahead he is in his kindy class. (They don't test until 2nd anyway.) But she redshirted her son, so he's likely the oldest one in the class by quite a bit. His bday is Oct. 1, and our state's cutoff is Dec. 1. So soon after school started (starts after Labor Day here), he was turning 6 while technically some kids could still be 4.

Gifted? Or just a year ahead because of age? Obviously you'd need to know the child to properly address, but I'm thinking that this must come up often with redshirted kids. I wonder how the schools address this?

cfranklin1 · March 2012

Just objectively, I'd say a year ahead due to his age. He's got an advantage, especially if during that year he wasn't in school he was learning by other means. There is a vast difference in a 6-year-old's ability to learn and socialize than a 4 or 5-year old's. Probably why redshirted kids are more prone to behavioral problems in school.

Angela814 · March 2012

This is probably why they don't test until 2nd grade. There's such a wide range of development for 4-6 year olds, and that starts to even out at 2nd grade.

Our state's cut off is Sept 1, so he wouldn't be red shirted here. He would just be one of the oldest. I think it really depends on how far ahead he is.

august06mom · March 2012

Angela814:

This is probably why they don't test until 2nd grade.

Good point. It's very interesting to watch the two boys play together now (I've known her forever.) Her son has always been "the older one" who DS has tried to keep up with, and now that they're both in kindy, it's like they're supposed to be on level playing fields, if that makes sense.

MrsStubbs · March 2012

Our cut off is Sept 1 and DD's bday is Oct 2. I totally would have sent her to K last year if they would have let me. She knows alot more than her two other cousins that will be in her same grade, do I think it's because she is "gifted"? no, more like almost a year older than them.

I don't want to dismiss the fact that she has a wonderful preschool teacher and she really is smart, she has just had more time learning that others.

juniper19 · March 2012

It depends on the test. The test we use in NYC takes numerical age (in three month increments) into account in order to calculate your score. So a child who is 5 years and 2 months when she takes the test can get more wrong than a child who is 5 years and 9 months and still get the same score.

Also, even if this child is advanced academically only because of his age, then it isn't necessarily unfair for him to end up in the gifted class. Socially he may be really immature and maybe that is the best fit for him.

shouldbworkin · March 2012

I think KG is pretty young to assess as gifted, which is probably why they don't do it until 2nd grade. They really even out starting in 1st grade. I don't really have an issue with someone redshirting an Oct kid with a Dec cut off, though. But, it sounds like he may have been ready to go if he's that far ahead.

There was 1 Oct kid in DS's KG class (dec cut off, DS was not held back with an Aug bday) and I wouldn't say she was so far ahead academically. Socially was another story, though. I haven't really found any of the kids that were redshirted with fall bdays to be that far ahead academically from the time I've spent in the classrooms. :shrug:

RockyMtnMama · March 2012

I agree that it's a little early to really assess that. I know that a lot of gifted program tests look at how a child thinks and not what they actually know, so it might actually be accurate, but I wonder what her motivation is? Is her kid bored, do they have a gifted program at that age? I would think it would be to her advantage to not worry about labeling her child until she needs the label to get him extra help or to challenge him.

My son had to be tested to get into K early (misses the cutoff by 4 days and was ready for K in our new state). Due to that test the school psych said he was accepted into gifted at 3rd grade, but we'll still have him take the gifted test with all the other kids in 2nd grade b/c I doubt it was very accurate. My son was in a pre-K public all-day school the year before, so I assume that some of the "gifted" talent" they say in my son was likely just an advantage of a full year of school before most kids in our new state. Plus our gifted program is 3 years away, so it's not an advantage or help for him to be labeled yet. (We never told our family, friends, or our kiddo that he was labeled already.)

duckiegrl · March 2012

cfranklin1:
Just objectively, I'd say a year ahead due to his age. He's got an advantage, especially if during that year he wasn't in school he was learning by other means. There is a vast difference in a 6-year-old's ability to learn and socialize than a 4 or 5-year old's.

This!

jlw2505 · March 2012

As someone who redshirted for the reason that my June baby (Sept 1 cut-off) was truely not ready and she is about 11 months older then one of her BFF's this year, I would say that this could be age related but no real way to no without knowing the child. My child was redhshirted because she was so not ready in a trillion different ways and would have sturggled so much in kindy if she had started this past fall. Instead we had her repeat her amazing PreK program and I would say (conferences are in a few weeks) that she is now ready for kindy but she has made amazing strides in the last year.

MrsSR · March 2012

I'm a teacher and most of the time older does not equal smarter.

I could be that he's older or it could be that he's just smart.

Our cutoff is Sept. 1, so I take school cutoff dates with a grain of salt.

bubu · March 2012

I don't know how all of this works but if he is "gifted" will the school bump him up the the appropriate grade for what his abilities are? If he was to test now and deemed gifted would he be moved to 1st or 2nd grade? Just curious.

JOEBunny · March 2012

In my DD's kindergarten class, 20 out of 23 parents self referred for gifted testing Embarrassed

The teacher told me that the test is so subjective at 5 years, since IQ test are not very valid at that age and motivation is not yet established that it results in a lot of kids getting into gifted who are not really. It is hard to get them out once they are in. The schools like gifted because it comes with $1,500 extra each year for each student. I did not test DD. She is in kindergarten, and is challenged enough by learning to read and the regular stuff. She does not need to be pulled out at her age. As it stands now, she can stay in her classroom with just a few kids who are not "gifted" and be more challenged by her regular teacher who is great, since so many kids are pulled out.

august06mom · March 2012

JOEBunny:

In my DD's kindergarten class, 20 out of 23 parents self referred for gifted testing

Ha! That's amazing.

GinandTonic · March 2012

IMO, there's a difference between advanced and gifted. There's a dimension of critical thinking that a gifted child has that an academically advanced child may not possess.

I also think that's hard to tease out in Kindy and first grade. My son might be in the advanced reading group, which means is a good reader - but does that mean he has creativity and the ability to think outside the box to write his own story based on a book that he's read? In my GT class in 3rd grade, we made up our own board games. Just because one is reading well above grade level, doesn't imply the thinking skills to do something like that.

CubbyMama2 · March 2012

Ditto those who said there is more to being truly gifted than academic achievement--in fact, many kids who qualify for GATE programs don't get the highest grades, either because they're smart but not careful workers/good test-takers/interested in putting forth the effort/insert various other reasons here. The testing for gifted kids includes their ability to think creatively and problem-solve, and often includes a questionnaire for teachers that evaluates those types of skills. Knowing their addition facts in kindergarten, or reading a year above grade level, may or may not have anything to do with being gifted.

DD1 is a 10/2 baby and our cutoff is currently 12/2, but is being moved back gradually to 9/2 (allegedly, at least). I wish there was a clear-cut date where parents HAD to send their kids to kinder (i.e. "If your child was born between this date and this date, s/he must enter kindergarten this school year") because it would take a lot of the guess-work and politics out of having to make a decision. We ended up waiting with my DD, not to give her an academic advantage, but because her preschool teacher said that just like at home, she would burst into tears when she couldn't do something right and just had some maturity/anxiety issues that might have improved with another year's time. Since we had the option to wait and so many other parents are erring on the side of starting later, too, we went ahead and waited, and the time did help....but, the more parents who hold their kids back, the more OTHER parents feel the need to hold theirs back to avoid having them compared to kids 1-1.5 years older in the same grade level. It's tricky, and at a certain point it gets ridiculous: at DD's preschool, there are several parents whose kids turn 5 in April, and one in February, who are still waiting another year to start kindergarten, so those kids will literally be six and a half years old when they start school!

REOM · March 2012

CubbyMama2:
Ditto those who said there is more to being truly gifted than academic achievement--in fact, many kids who qualify for GATE programs don't get the highest grades, either because they're smart but not careful workers/good test-takers/interested in putting forth the effort/insert various other reasons here. The testing for gifted kids includes their ability to think creatively and problem-solve, and often includes a questionnaire for teachers that evaluates those types of skills. Knowing their addition facts in kindergarten, or reading a year above grade level, may or may not have anything to do with being gifted.

DD1 is a 10/2 baby and our cutoff is currently 12/2, but is being moved back gradually to 9/2 (allegedly, at least). I wish there was a clear-cut date where parents HAD to send their kids to kinder (i.e. "If your child was born between this date and this date, s/he must enter kindergarten this school year") because it would take a lot of the guess-work and politics out of having to make a decision. We ended up waiting with my DD, not to give her an academic advantage, but because her preschool teacher said that just like at home, she would burst into tears when she couldn't do something right and just had some maturity/anxiety issues that might have improved with another year's time. Since we had the option to wait and so many other parents are erring on the side of starting later, too, we went ahead and waited, and the time did help....but, the more parents who hold their kids back, the more OTHER parents feel the need to hold theirs back to avoid having them compared to kids 1-1.5 years older in the same grade level. It's tricky, and at a certain point it gets ridiculous: at DD's preschool, there are several parents whose kids turn 5 in April, and one in February, who are still waiting another year to start kindergarten, so those kids will literally be six and a half years old when they start school!

Ridiculous. The district should NOT allow this. This means that there will be SEVEN year olds in kindergarten?! Bordering on developmentally inappropriate, and completely unfair to all kids involved.

cnybride2be · March 2012

maybe he is gifted. maybe he is just taller. oh well.

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