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Working Moms
ciararae
member
Is it possible to be a lawyer and a mother? A frustrated lurker...
ciararae
member
in Working Moms
I guess I should preface this with a warning: I'm still in my undergrad studies, preparing to go to law school, and I am neither pregnant nor trying to conceive. But one day, I want to be a mother and a lawyer - or, if not a lawyer, working in the legal field making a decent living wage.
With that said, I've been looking for blogs by women in the law field who work full-time, whose husbands work full-time, and who wasn't a SAHM for longer than a typical maternity leave. It occurred to me a few moments ago that these women probably don't have time for blogging, and that's why I haven't been able to find any. I posted about my frustration on Facebook, and got some pretty harsh replies:
"You can't do both. Being a lawyer and being a mother are both full-time jobs, and you have to pick one to excel at or split and both suffer."
"Your kids will be raised by nannies who will call them 'mom,' and you'll miss everything. You'll regret it."
"Just work part-time until the baby is in school if you have to work. It doesn't matter if you earned degrees you won't use."
"Full time working mothers can't claim all the success, as they are not there for the day to day. Their children can turn out awesome, but they just can't take all the credit, as a daycare provider, or nanny, or father contributed the majority of the success."
Then, I was slammed with a lecture about doing research about how daycare kids get sick more often and I'll lose money by having to take days off to care for the kid and could lose my job if it happens often.
This board came up in my search for support for my two life goals, and I'm certain that you all have heard it before. I guess I just want to know, are any of you working on balancing children and working in the law field? If so, what field are you in? Do you have anything that you wish you would have known when you were still in my shoes, planning the path for the rest of your life? If you aren't a lawyer and just have something to add, that's definitely welcome too!
Thanks for reading, and any comments. I really appreciate it.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Is it possible to be a lawyer and a mother? A frustrated lurker...
I lot of people like the "spilled milk" blog. Google it. I think the actual name is lawyer-momma or something like that. She's an attorney and is now divorced, raising a little boy.
I'm not an atty, so no other advice for you. It seems like there are several attorneys on this board.
Doesn't your area of law and particular job make a huge difference? I.e. trying to make partner at a large firm vs. working at a small firm or in-house for a business is a big difference in terms of hours and expectations?
I would imagine so, and that both have pros and cons. I'd definitely be interested in hearing opinions concerning both, particularly because - at this point, at least - I don't know what I want to do. I want to go to law school, and do something with that. I guess I should note that I don't want to go to law school because I "want to change the world," or go into public service, or for the pay for that matter, though I would enjoy a comfortable salary. I want to go to law school because I'm interested in law. I also certainly acknowledge that my understanding of being a lawyer is limited to a few job shadows and speaking with a few of them. I know that's way more information than required to answer your question, but I thought I should put that out there.
Edit: And I'll definitely check out that blog. Thank you.
I am a lawyer and a mom, and I think it all depends on what you do. I've also learned that some people are nervous/negative about everything in life - some of those fb comments seem to fit the bill - so I would just ignore those. I'll be honest and say that a large law firm lifestyle/hours does not lend itself to parenting, though plenty of people do it. Many people just stay at firms for 2-5 years after law school to get good training and to accumulate some income, then leave to go in-house, to a non-profit, etc. all of which have better hours (closer to 9-5). Many people I know have waited until that point to have children, which is reasonable (you can view your years at a firm as a residency is for physicians).
This is all assuming you go straight to a firm, which is typically the worst kind of lifestyle with the longest hours. There are so many other routes from law school, most of which are much more humane, and yes you can have a life and a family!
Good luck to you!
I practiced law for 10 years before I had my daughter. I practice business litigation. I was a SAHM for the first two and a half years of her life, partly because she had special needs and a lot of medical appointments to address her developmental delays. My kid is doing much better now, and I recently started doing some part-time work on a freelance basis for one of my old employers.
As a parent, I do not want to be an associate or partner in a firm, at least as a litigator. I have worked 100-hour weeks when I was in trial before, and I will never do that again. I don't want to work more than 40 hours a week, so I will continue to do contract work or go back to a government position.
I am a lawyer, and pregnant with my first child. I will preface my post by pointing out that I live in a relatively small city, and most firms here are small as well (fewer than 20 attorneys). It's a different lifestyle in smaller cities and firms, and smaller salaries (which certainly make it hard to swallow the student loan debt). That being said, I know many women who practice law and raise families, and are successful at both. It's not easy - depending on the area of practice, the hours can be long - but then parenting rarely is, even you're not working.
The women who do it successfully, at least those in my acquaintance, talk about finding the right fit in terms of firm culture. My office is very much an 8-5 type of office -a few stragglers will linger until 6 or so, but not many. I am not a litigator, so my practice is not so much feast or famine - it's very manageable. But most importantly, I have the support of partners who believe that everyone deserves a life outside of the office, and that life includes a family of one's own. The partners, who are all men, are all devoted fathers (and grandfathers) and I appreciate that they support women in the profession and family life generally.
I don't make as much money as other lawyers in larger cities and in bigger firms. (We'll see what happens after I make partner.) But I enjoy my job, my clients, and my life, and I have a reasonably good balance between them. It leaves me happy and fulfilled as a person, and that is an example I want to set for my kids, including my stepson.
Married Bio * BFP Charts
You seriously need to purge out your FB friends.
I am not a lawyer but there are moms here who are. It is totally doable. Depends on a lot, what kind of law, what kind of practice, etc.. Having a nanny or full time daycare does not make you any less of a mom.
Just keep going, it will all work out.
Hello!
I am not an attorney, but my job is just as demanding, if not more so. I travel 3-4 weeks out of the month by plane - in hotels. I am currently pregnant and trying to figure out how to make it work. We are looking at getting a nanny as that seems to be the best option for us being that we need a lot of flexibility. Being a SAHM at this point is not really an option - I want to pay for my kids college and give them everything they need and then some. My job allows us to do that - not to mention, I love my job!
Your facebook friends are ridiculous. Most people these days are 2 income families. You'll make it work. Besides, you are putting the cart way before the horse. You aren't a lawyer yet, and aren't even TTC - so don't worry yourself about it until it becomes more of a reality.
Your FB friends seem to think there's nothing a father can do to raise his own children. In my experience, it's hardest with two high-powered career parents. DH and I are very fortunate that our professional busy seasons are different, so we're able to balance each other out on the home front when one of us is crazy-busy.
I'm a lawyer. Litigation practice at a national law firm. We are not BigLaw but we have a lot of work. I've done the BigLaw 2100 hours a year thing and no, doing both well wasn't going to work for me. Hell, being single there and just having a cat didn't work for me. The thing is from my perspective you have to find your balance. I don't want to work in house. My preference is to stay in a firm and do trial work. But to do that I'd either need a nanny with flexibility or what we do, my husband is a SAHD. Can it be done with two full time working parents. Yes, I imagine so. My managing partner just had her second baby and her husband has an equally demanding job - but they have a live in nanny.
The first question - can you be a lawyer and a mother - is easily answered. Of course. But whether or not you want to be a litigator, a corporate lawyer, a legal writer, what have you will affect many of your family building choices. My own advice? When your ready to start your family do it. There is no magic time in your career. There may be better times from your jobs standpoint but as someone who went through infertility treatments my advice is do it on your calendar. Also, seriously consider how crappy the legal market is before jumping into law school. If you don't, read the above the law blog. And good luck!
DD -- 5YO
DS -- 3YO
I mostly lurk over here while we are TTC #1, but I am a lawyer, and I've worked at a big firm, non-profit, and now government, so I thought I could add something of value. Like PP said, it totally depends on where you work.
I planned to be a SAHM when I was at a big firm, because I couldn't find a single role model in my firm who was successful at work and happy at home. Even at a non-profit I thought I'd have to be a SAHM because I didn't make enough money to justify daycare. I would constantly lament my decision to go to law school and join what I thought was really the last frontier that had yet to understand the needs of working moms.
Last summer I started my current job as a government attorney and I love it. Our office is almost half women, most of whom have kids. Both of my bosses are women. We enjoy what we do, and the office is a ghost town by 4:30. When people need a little flexibility in their schedules because their kids are home sick or whatnot, it's not a big deal. It took me awhile but it can be done if you make it a priority! Good luck
. Do you have a clear idea of what you are going to do with your degree?
. Your friends are beeotches and more likely speaking to their own disatisfaction with their careers. Working moms flourish all the time with happy well-adjusted kids. Obviously.
I'm a lawyer by education, but in house "counsel" so to speak by trade. I've never gone to court in my career and don't ever plan on it. Nor do I ever plan on billing an hour to a client. It's not my cup of tea. Therefore, aside from a couple times every year or so, I never work weekends, I rarely work late and my schedule is very flexible to accomodate my family, including WAH on Fridays. My DH is very involved in raising out kids too, so no, we never feel like a nanny is raising our kids (helps that we don't have one).
It's all about choices. IMO, you can have a lot, but you can't "have it all." If you and YH both want to work 80 hour a week jobs, then yah, you probably won't see each other much, much less your kids (or have much time to make them?). It seems like most families that have 1 person that works 80 hours a week have another that SAH or works PT. Many families have two working parents, but they both work 40 hours a week with little late nights and weekends. And, there's a million different ways to dice it up in between. It's whatever works for that family.
With all of that being said, I would TOTALLY not go to law school right now unless you're planning on going to a top school and graduating top of your class. I just met with outside counsel for our firm and they now hire 1 new associate each year and that associate has to have a 4.0 from a good school It's a very, very different legal world out there now.
Who are these idiots that posted these comments? I agree with pp that you should purge your "friends". I'm not a lawyer, but I work closely with my company's employment attorney and her paralegal staff (I work in HR). All of them are working moms, and our attorney has 2 young children and works 4 days/week. I think you will find that you can do it, as long as you set realistic expectations. And how is being a lawyer/mother different that being any working mother with a demanding job? If we couldn't do both, women would still be barefoot and pregnant at home.
If you find a childcare provider you trust, whether a center, home, nanny, and have a supportive partner, you can absolutely be a good mother AND have a successful career.
I am lawyer at a big firm. transactional practice. two kids. Some days I feel like a bad lawyer and some days I feel like a bad mom. But, some days I felt like a bad lawyer before I had kids, and some days I felt like a bad mom while I was on maternity leave so I don't blame my situation for that.
I do work a reduced hours schedule, which means on average more like a 45 hour week (though there are still some 80 hour weeks -- you can't avoid them if you want the good work).
A few thoughts:
1) Your FB friends suck.
2) You are way ahead of yourself. You have no idea when or if you will actually have kids. Don't jump to government work right away so you can be home for hypothetical soccer practice for your hypothetical kids. Also, seriously, TERRIBLE time to go to law school. bigger question -- if (likely) you end up unemployed with 100k in debt, how will that effect your children?
Thank you for all of the responses, ladies. I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but like some of you pointed out, I want to make sure law school is right for me like I've always thought it was. While I'm not sure specifically what I want to do with a law degree yet, I've never wanted to do the BigLaw thing, though I know I probably will need to pay my dues in that regard to get a good job in a smaller firm or in-house. Right now, I'm an undergrad at UMich, working my behind off to get into Michigan Law. I hope to spend the rest of my life in Ann Arbor, so maybe I'll get lucky and get a job working for the University. Who knows?
I appreciate all of the advice, and the encouragement that achieving both of my dreams is not only possible, but that you are doing it as well.
As for the Facebook friends who posted those comments, they were posted by two people: a high school friend who is at Michigan with me and generally negative about life, and a cousin of my boyfriend who is a SAHM. I'm fairly certain I won't be talking to them about anything but the weather, unless necessary, from this point forward. Thanks again, everyone!
In addition to everything that has been said, here are a couple more blogs by lawyer moms.
Jenny Hamilton Style
Never Cook on a Saturday Night
I'm a lawyer at a Vault Top 10 firm in commercial litigation. I have a 10 month old son. It's hard, don't get me wrong, but it's not impossible. You really need to be strong and not question your priorities. My family is my priority. I work a lot, but no one cares if I'm in the office. So lately I've been leaving around 6 pm. I'm home in time to gave Max a bath and put him to bed, and then I usually work for another few hours. There have been and will continue to be times when I'm home late, but I usually know when those days will be and I plan accordingly. My husband is a SAHD right now because he just finished B-school and is looking for a job. We started Max in daycare two days a week to get him acclimated. And yes, he's been sick a lot. But he's starting to get over it, and it means he wont' be as sick when he starts kindergarten. If my husband wasn't home with him we'd probably use my firms emergency back up day care.
Also, give SERIOUS THOUGHT as to whether you want to go to law school. It's tough out there right now. It's really hard to get a job unless you're at the top of your class and/or at a top school.
I practice Big Law and am pregnant with my first child. To be honest, there are not very women who practice in my area (securities and M&A) who have kids and still manage to have a thriving practice. But that does not mean that it isn't possible. I've talked to the few who are very successful and learned that it's all about being realistic and finding the right balance. You certainly can do it, but whether you "want" to is another thing. One of the women I talked to (a very successful partner at one of the top firms in the country) has a schedule like this: wake up at 4:30, work out, work in the home office till the kids are awake, have breakfast with kids, go to work at 8, work till 5, come home, spend few hours with the kids, work from home from 8 to about midnight. The family also has a full-time nanny and "outsource" as many household tasks as possible.
For me, since I really like my practice area and can't imagine going in-house, I'm going to try and make it work. DH also has a much less demanding career and although he will not be a SAHD, we already agreed that he'll take care of many of the day to day activities (e.g. doctor's appointments, day care pick up and drop off etc.). We also already have cleaners and a lady that comes in once a week and do all of our laundry. We pay all our bills on-line and almost never have to run errands. So our life is pretty stream-lined as is and I intend to keep it that way as much as possible.
At the same time, I'm also realistic and know that unless I'm willing to have a crazy schedule like the one I described above (which I'm not), my practice is going to suffer to a certain extent. And I'm ok with that. I'd still like to bill 1,800 hours a year, but I have no illusions that I'll be able to bill over 2,000 hours like I did before, still find time for marketing, and build up a very large practice anytime soon.
Lastly, I echo the PP that said to give law school thing some serious thought. Again, I REALLY enjoy my work and my firm - but I seem to be a rarity. Most of the people I graduated law school with or that I work with now hate private practice, but suffer the "golden handcuff" problem - after law school, if you make it into Big Law, you so quickly get used to the $ and adjust your lifestyle accordingly that it becomes incredibly difficult to leave. So you end up being stuck doing something you don't like, and that's a pretty terrible way to live.
There are very few law jobs in Michigan. Even fewer in Ann Arbor. I graduated from MLAW, work in biglaw, have baby #1 on the way. My husband is a MI native. We loved AA, had wonderful friends, and would have been happy living there (I spent 8 years there from MA to MLAW), but there. were. no. jobs. And it has only gotten worse in the last few years.
My firm is ok. They have a lady retention problem, like all large firms. I will be taking 6 months maternity leave (paid), though, which is pretty great. There are many working moms in my office. Nanny, SAHD, reduced hours schedule, etc.
Regardless, unless you get major aid to get through MLAW, you are going to have major debt, and student loans can almost never be discharged in BK.
Best of luck to you, but this is a terrible time to go to law school. Read Paul Campos. Read Above the Law. Read any of the law school scambloggers. Read the blogs of the many lawyers laid off in 2009, or the lost years of law grads.
I am not a lawyer but I am a doctor. There are many similarities as these are still both old boys' clubs.
Your career and family life are what you make of it. Marry wisely and pick a spouse that will support you both with your children and your career. There will always be days when you feel you aren't 100% at anything. But putting toys away or cleaning the bathroom can wait.
You will learn to balance and make concessions.
It's good to think of the future, but you cannot stress over it. So much can happen between now and then. One step at a time. LSAT....law school....bar...etc.
Good luck and you can do it if you really want it.
I was 30 years old and 3 years out of law school when I had a baby. I was not able to balance trial work with having a baby so I quit my job when my son was 11 months old. The months after maternity leave before I quit were he!!. I hated not spending time with him and had intense pressure at work. I worked long days and at least one day almost every weekend. I was sick constantly from stress and lack of sleep. This month I started a small firm with a partner. I expect the best case scenario to be approximately 40 hour weeks for 70-80K income for the next few years. Not too bad, but I have well over 100K in loan debt. After the loan payments and when you consider I have no paid time off, retirement contributions, or other benefits I really won't make much.
I wish I had gone to a much, much cheaper law school. I absolutely love being a lawyer but financially my career choice will likely be a disaster long-term. If I had little to no debt it would make more sense. It also would have helped if I had waited a few more years to have a baby so that I could try to find a government job first, but I didn't want to put that off for a job.
I'm also a lawyer and a mother. I'm a public defender and work typical 9-5ish hours unless I'm in trial. When that happens, the hours and stress can get intense. So far, it's working out, but it hasn't been easy (and my job is still easing me back into my practice). I've already had to make some sacrifices on both the work and personal fronts. However, I think that's probably true for most working mothers. I know many attorney/ mothers, and every case is different. Some of them are doing beautifully balancing work and family. Others are now SAHMs.
As others have mentioned before, I would think long and hard about the whole law school decision. Make sure it's something you truly want. Good luck- whatever you decide!!
Both DH and I are lawyers and expecting our first child. I truly believe it is possible to be a lawyer and a mother, it will just take work and efficient time management.
However, there are certain factors to consider (which I believe were previously mentioned): what kind of law you want to practice; what kind of firm you want to work for; how you define being a successful attorney and mother (it's not always financial or if you make partner); the amount of school loans, if any, you plan on taking out to finance law school (this one is HUGE), literally.
Our situation: DH has his own law practice and although his hours are malleable, he works Monday - Saturday, sometimes even Sundays. Once LO arrives, I'm sure his hours will adjust slightly and probably allow him to be more available than my schedule. However, my schedule isn't horrible. I'm a staff attorney and work a 35 hour work week with every other Friday off.
Unfortunately, we both have school loans, but mine are much more severe than his; this precludes me from being a SAHM. Trust me, I wish and would love to stay with LO for the first year, but living in an expensive city + school loans doesn't make this feasible. Now we also have to take into account the cost of providing for a new little one in our family, planning for their future (and education); of course this assumes a healthy child, but what if there are medical complications with he/she.
I knew school loans would be bad, but honestly just MY monthly payments are $1,600 per month (that's practically a mortgage payment in some situations/states). Additionally, the attorney job market is tough to break into (of course this depends on where you live) and with the way the economy is nowadays, most people are going back to school for higher education (which means J.D.'s) which eventually translates into an even more saturated attorney pool within a few years, all fighting for legal positions. I don't mean to be negative, but you did want additional thoughts on other things to consider (or wish I would have considered before diving into a law career).
With all that said, I ALWAYS wanted to be an attorney. I also ALWAYS wanted to be a mom. I knew somehow, someway I would make both work and nothing would preclude me from achieving my dreams. DH talked me out of going to law school and warned me of the misery associated with law school, the CA bar exam, and being an attorney. I listened, but in the end I really wanted it. If you really want it, just do it; but be prepared for a very tumultuous adventure (emotionally, financially, and physically).
I would be more concerned about the legal market and your ability to find a job post-law school. Since you don't seem to particularly want to practice at a firm (you mentioned working for the school), I wonder if another career might be a better fit for you?
I'm a lawyer. I own my own practice. I am a good mom. It is very possible. Most of my colleagues have kids. But I do not make a ton of money because my work/family balance limits the hours I choose to put into my work.
I sure as all get out wouldn't go to law school right now. There are far too many lawyers for an already saturated field. The biggest bill I pay each month is my student loan bill (law school only). It is a small mortgage on a house I do not own. I LOVE my job. I feel genuine satisfaction. It has worked out well for me. But financially I would have been just as well off quitting after my bachelor's and getting just about any corporate job.
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2w73hq9.jpg
This exactly. A good friend of mine stopped after her BA and got a security clearance for her first job. We went to comparable undergrad schools and she now makes a good living with almost no student loans, good benefits, flex work schedule, and relatively low stress at work. She's pregnant right now and definitely has less to worry about than I did a year ago.
Again, thanks for all of your responses. I definitely appreciate all of the feedback. Like many of you, I have always known that I wanted to go to law school. Part of the reason I brought up potentially trying to get a job at UMich after law school was to show that I'm not dead-set on getting a job at a large firm, because I understand that the job market is not exactly thriving - I wouldn't mind thinking outside of the box for careers that require a law degree. I've never really thought about not going to law school, since I've always been interested in pursuing a legal career, so it's difficult to think about that prospect, despite the knowledge that I will graduate with a large sum of debt. Even if I don't work at a firm - though, I think if I could plan a "dream" life, I would work at a small-ish firm for most of my career, and spend some time as a professor - I've always found myself interested in the legal process. Do you ladies have any tips for trying to figure out whether it really is for me like I think it is, before I go to law school? I'm not sure how, other than actually getting a job in a law firm. Also, I've heard that different fields lend themselves more to parenting than others (as in Attorney A working at a mid-size law firm will work fewer hours/have more flexibility than Attorney B working in a mid-size law firm in a different field). Is this anywhere near the truth?
Thank you, again, for all of your responses. They are truly helpful.
OP - I'm a senior manager at a big law firm. Of course its possible to be a mother and a lawyer - there are dozens of women at my firm in various stages of motherhood. Some are FT on partnership track or partners, some have stepped back to PT for a few years, some have even left completely for a few years and then come back as contractors, etc. When I was younger (high school, college) I was fascinated by the law and assumed I'd become a lawyer, but wanted to take a few years off first. I ended up working in several small law firms - as a variation of secretary/admin/paralegal, etc. and it was truly an eye-opener. After working in law firms for 2 years, I realized I really wasn't interested in the day to day business of being a lawyer, even though I continue to enjoy exploring legal "issues" and complexities as an academic/intellectual exercise.
I would get your foot in the door at any law firm, doing anything you can and make an evaluation of what people are doing and whether you want to go 100K or more into debt to do that. Really, REALLY look hard at the legal market, there are so many lawyers lined up ahead of you for the few jobs that are available.
I am not a lawyer, but I have to share this personal anecdote of dumb comments:
I was at my brother's wedding with my 3 month old baby. I had never met my SIL's parents before. Her father started chatting with me about how much he was looking forward to grandchildren. Then, he commented to me that "SIL had thought about becoming a doctor, but she wouldn't be able to have a family if she did that." I just smiled and nodded and held my baby and didn't say a word about being a doctor, myself.