Babies: 3 - 6 Months

Sleep training #2 (ferber): Supposed to get better, right?

Just like in the post below, we used ferber with DS and he took to it instantly.  He cried all the tiem no matter what we did, but got with the sleep program very quickly once he figured out how to initally soothe himself to sleep. 

DD is entirely different.  She can get to sleep initially just fine.  We even removed the swaddle Friday night and braced for the worst...not a peep. Just a fuss or two then she passed out. But then she woke at 11pm, as she's been doing for a few weeks.  We had been soothing her back down without feeding, so knew she wasn't hungry. She cried 12 min, total. Then woke at 1am and 5am, each of these times I BF'd her (going to slowly wean off feedings).

Saturday night, went down just fine, woke at 11, cried for 2 min then went to sleep. Woke at 1am and 5am for feeds.  Sunday night...WHOA.  The 11pm wakeup lasted 45 min before I had to feed her to see if she was just THAT hungy. I still don't know if she was or not (she ate, but always does when offered), but DH was starting a new job Monday and it was crossing over into the grey area where I was going to feed her anyway.  Well, it appears that ruined our efforts, as she woke again at 11 last night and had to be soothed back down (she has a little cough now and I just have no idea what the right thing to do is). 

If you do any form of CIO, WWYD in my situation? start over with the 11pm waking tonight? Wait until she is 100% done with her cough (may be never, as she's in daycare)? Any help woudl be appreciated.  Sunday night was miserable :(

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Re: Sleep training #2 (ferber): Supposed to get better, right?

  • Babies go through different stages, and not every night is going to be consistent when it comes to feeding and sleeping. We can go for a week where she sleeps for the same amount of hours and wakes at relatively the same time night after night. Then it all goes out the window the next week and she'll be up all around the clock. I can't really give you advice in terms of getting her to stay asleep but what I'm wondering is why you want to wean her off feeding at night? And how exactly you plan to do that?

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  • Sorry but your LO is too young for CIO.  She can't understand what you're asking her to do.  And it's an especially tumultuous time for sleep.  Try to be patient and understanding.  And the same with feeding.  She's so young that if she wants to eat, it's because she's hungry!
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  • I think it just depends on how comfortable you are. If it were me I think I would treat the 11 wakeup like the other ones and offer food and then try to slowly wean her off of it. Especially since she has a cough, I would try to do it as gently as possible. Even though you have been able to soothe her down at 11 before now, I think that this setback is probably an inevitable part of the process.
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  • it sounds like she's really hungry, a side effect of the 4 month wakefuls.  my DD still wakes to nurse 2x a night (we bed share though) and i'm fine w/ it b/c i know she's not eating as much during the day as she used to.  at the 6m mark we will decide if Ferber would help her to fall asleep on her own w/out nursing.  my son had a really hard time adjusting to that, but it did work eventually.  in your situation, esp. w/her having the cold, i would hold off for a bit. good luck, in a few weeks i'm sure it will click for her in no time!! 
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  • imagealiciaroset:
    Sorry but your LO is too young for CIO.  She can't understand what you're asking her to do.  And it's an especially tumultuous time for sleep.  Try to be patient and understanding.  And the same with feeding.  She's so young that if she wants to eat, it's because she's hungry!

    Ferber can be done after 4 mo. That is when we did it with DS and he is a great sleeper.  She actually hasn't been hungry at the 11pm wakeup for weeks now...we have to go soothe her back to sleep and she will go down another couple hours.  But it's getting to be a process to go soothe her at that time only to have her wake again for food 2 hours later.  So if we can eliminate that (very habitual) waking, I would like to.  I feed her at her other 2 wakings.

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  • imageHoszowski:

    Babies go through different stages, and not every night is going to be consistent when it comes to feeding and sleeping. We can go for a week where she sleeps for the same amount of hours and wakes at relatively the same time night after night. Then it all goes out the window the next week and she'll be up all around the clock. I can't really give you advice in terms of getting her to stay asleep but what I'm wondering is why you want to wean her off feeding at night? And how exactly you plan to do that?

    She consistently wakes at the same times.  Feeding her is a sure fire way to get her back to sleep, but it's tiring and she doesn't need it. She's in the 75-90% for weight and height and eats a lot at daycare. she currently only goes a max of 4 hours without feeding if we keep this up and she is definitely capable of more. 

    We started a few weeks ago with soothing at the 11pm waking rather than feeding.  And she goes back to sleep for another couple hours, no problem.  But she really shoudl be able to get herself back to sleep at that time.  Hence using ferber for that waking.  Then, when I feel she isn't really eating much at one of her other wakings, I will try to wean off of that feed, and so on.  I will let her lead. But habitually waking when she doesn't need to eat isn't doing either of us any favors if she is otherwise well (not wet or poopy,  not sick, etc.)

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  • OMFG.  I am so sick of seeing posts like this where people reply "he is too young for CIO" Oh really? Are you a sleep expert? Because actually, many leading sleep experts, including Ferber, say that 4 months is a great age to do sleep training.  Ferber says 3-4 months is fine to start if the baby has habitual waking problems (eating more than 1-2 times per night) and by 5-6 months you should definitely be doing some sleep training if LO is still waking at all. Why do people think feeding the baby every time he makes a peep is what's best for the baby? Did you ever think that perhaps teaching him to get a good night's sleep is what's best??

     Anyway... OP: we are in a very similar situation.  DS has been waking at 10, 1, and 4 for two months now and eating very small snacks each time.  (So not "four month wakeful" and obviously not truly hungry.)   Then about 2-3 weeks ago he started waking every 1-2 hours, not hungry, but no self-soothing skills.  We clearly needed to do something to help him sleep better.  We've been Ferbering for about 5 nights and it's been much slower going than with DD, but we are making progress.  He can now put himself to sleep, unswaddled, and can usually put himself back to sleep when he stirs overnight.

    Like you, we have been able to eliminate that first wake up and we're down to 12 and 4:00 now.  He seems to have developed a cold in the past day or so, so we're giving him a break on the actual crying part.  If he wakes, we give him several minutes of fussing to see if he'll fall back to sleep (which he often does) but if he really cries we will feed him, although we haven't had to more than twice/night yet.  As you said, getting down to two feedings is enough for us right now.  We'll reassess trying to eliminate another feeding in a few weeks if we need to.  I'd cut her some slack until you're sure she's not sick and then pick up where you left off.  GL


    DD february 2010 | DS october 2011


    *please excuse my typos, bumping from my iphone*
  • please don't flame me because this is my first post, but i am not a poster but definitely a lurker.

    my son is turning four months on march 9th, and i just started sleep training this past week. i took ferber's book out of the library and read through it to make sure it's what i wanted to do, and i think it is very misunderstood. you are not "abandoning" your baby like many people feel CIO is. you keep returning into their room after intervals to assure them that you are still there. I agree with the PP above me who said sleep training can take place between 3 and 4 months. I've been doing alot of research on this, and some doctors actually recommend it because once older they begin to fall into bad habits such as rocking to sleep and waking up the same time every nite for a bottle.

     with that being said, we are on day 5 now and it has gone great. not going to lie the first nite was a little rough, but every single nite after that he didn't even cry when i put him in his crib he went right to sleep and has been sleeping from 7 to 7 since! and i also agree that if your child is getting all their nourishment in during the day, there is no need for them to feed at nite. Ferber discusses the effects of food in their systems during the nite and how that might not be good for them. 

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  • imageSummer20:

    OMFG.  I am so sick of seeing posts like this where people reply "he is too young for CIO" Oh really? Are you a sleep expert? Because actually, many leading sleep experts, including Ferber, say that 4 months is a great age to do sleep training.  Ferber says 3-4 months is fine to start if the baby has habitual waking problems (eating more than 1-2 times per night) and by 5-6 months you should definitely be doing some sleep training if LO is still waking at all. Why do people think feeding the baby every time he makes a peep is what's best for the baby? Did you ever think that perhaps teaching him to get a good night's sleep is what's best??

    1) No, I'm not a sleep expert, but neither are you and neither is Ferber. FYI, he's a doctor who sells books by telling people they can get their kids to sleep if they just follow his method. That makes him, to me, a salesman first.  It's not in his interest to change his method if evidence arises to contradict it, and that's dangerous.  His work should be taken as just one of many opinions on the matter, not definitive.   

    2) I don't know about your 4 month old, but mine still needs help to get to sleep much of the time.  She also puts her self to sleep often, but not always.  I trust her that when she cries it's not because she's manipulating me or being a jerk, but because she NEEDS HELP.  And I see that as my job as her mother.   

    3) I always, with every night waking, offer every other kind of comfort before nursing. And I'm lucky to have a DD that just won't eat unless she's hungry.  But she too habitually wakes at 11 and needs help getting back to sleep. I'm not going to let her cry because it's not good for her brain.  Hasn't your vast amount of research taught you that yet?  Google cortisol in baby brain and take a look.  And 'making a peep' is not what the OP is talking about.  We all know the difference between fussing and crying.  If your baby is crying, it's because they want you to come to them.  I guess I'm just different than you in that I will always come for her. 

    To me, helping her in the short term teaches her that I will be there for her, always.  This is much more important to me than me getting a little bit more sleep.  It's a choice every parent has to make, and the info I've read about CIO says don't do it until your LO is ready to soothe themselves, and I don't think most 4 month olds are.  

    Sleep isn't something you can force on a child, they need to feel comfortable and relaxed.  This, to me, is how you can teach a child to sleep.  IMO a lot of sleep training is just exhausting your child to the point where they can't help but fall asleep.  This is by no means teaching them to have a healthy relationship with sleep. 

  • imagealiciaroset:
    imageSummer20:

    OMFG.  I am so sick of seeing posts like this where people reply "he is too young for CIO" Oh really? Are you a sleep expert? Because actually, many leading sleep experts, including Ferber, say that 4 months is a great age to do sleep training.  Ferber says 3-4 months is fine to start if the baby has habitual waking problems (eating more than 1-2 times per night) and by 5-6 months you should definitely be doing some sleep training if LO is still waking at all. Why do people think feeding the baby every time he makes a peep is what's best for the baby? Did you ever think that perhaps teaching him to get a good night's sleep is what's best??

    1) No, I'm not a sleep expert, but neither are you and neither is Ferber. FYI, he's a doctor who sells books by telling people they can get their kids to sleep if they just follow his method. That makes him, to me, a salesman first.  It's not in his interest to change his method if evidence arises to contradict it, and that's dangerous.  His work should be taken as just one of many opinions on the matter, not definitive.   

    2) I don't know about your 4 month old, but mine still needs help to get to sleep much of the time.  She also puts her self to sleep often, but not always.  I trust her that when she cries it's not because she's manipulating me or being a jerk, but because she NEEDS HELP.  And I see that as my job as her mother.   

    3) I always, with every night waking, offer every other kind of comfort before nursing. And I'm lucky to have a DD that just won't eat unless she's hungry.  But she too habitually wakes at 11 and needs help getting back to sleep. I'm not going to let her cry because it's not good for her brain.  Hasn't your vast amount of research taught you that yet?  Google cortisol in baby brain and take a look.  And 'making a peep' is not what the OP is talking about.  We all know the difference between fussing and crying.  If your baby is crying, it's because they want you to come to them.  I guess I'm just different than you in that I will always come for her. 

    To me, helping her in the short term teaches her that I will be there for her, always.  This is much more important to me than me getting a little bit more sleep.  It's a choice every parent has to make, and the info I've read about CIO says don't do it until your LO is ready to soothe themselves, and I don't think most 4 month olds are.  

    Sleep isn't something you can force on a child, they need to feel comfortable and relaxed.  This, to me, is how you can teach a child to sleep.  IMO a lot of sleep training is just exhausting your child to the point where they can't help but fall asleep.  This is by no means teaching them to have a healthy relationship with sleep. 

    Ok, this was not meant to be a debate about "CIO" (which Ferber really isn't, but that's not the pioint.)  We can choose to disagree on the methods we use.  But if you aren't using the same method as me and clearly don't believe in it, your opinion on the matter isn't really relevant. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and thank you for sharing yours.

    I used ferber with DS and believe me, the cried FAR more during the average day for who knows what reason than he ever did with sleep training. He is happy, well-adjusted and sleeps like a champ. 

    I have done my research and I am comfortable with my decision. It's not for everyone.  I get that.  But we believe that sleep (with as little interruption as possible when neurologically capable) is extremely important to our children's development.  It has far less to do with my need for sleep.  DD is very capable of soothing herself to sleep when she first goes down, as she has never so much as made a peep when we put her down beginning at 4 mo.  And yes, she goes down fully awake. But she has been conditioned to need nursing back to sleep at her night wakings b/c that is what we have always done.  At this age, she is capable of going longer than 4 hours without a feeding and I believe that these feedings can actually disrupt her sleep, as she gets a lot of milk during the day. So when she wakes at her normal times (b/c yes, they are like clockwork), she shoudl be able to soothe herself back to sleep.  If I never give her the opportunity to do this, she will never learn how.

    Now, my OP stated that b/c she had developed a little cough and seemed more upset than the previous night and it was getting close to when I woudl feed her for a waking anyway, I did feed her.  But now we are back to the habitual waking we had almost eliminated the 2 nights prior.

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  • imageCA2006:

    Ok, this was not meant to be a debate about "CIO" (which Ferber really isn't, but that's not the pioint.)  We can choose to disagree on the methods we use.  But if you aren't using the same method as me and clearly don't believe in it, your opinion on the matter isn't really relevant. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and thank you for sharing yours.

    Yes, thank you.  This is exactly my point, albeit not so well-put.  I just get so frustrated that every time someone posts about Ferber, it seems like half a dozen people jump in preaching about how horrible it is (and it seems like most of them have never even read Ferber).  If the original poster isn't asking "do you think Ferbering is good?" then keep your opinion to yourself.  I honestly don't know what is "right" but we all do what we feel is best for our own families and when that choice is backed up by medical doctors, it seems like a pretty valid option.

    CA2006 - good luck with your sleep training.  I know it's hard, but as we both know from experience it can work wonders!  

    ETA: and just an FYI, Ferber is not just "some doctor who sells books".  He is the Director for Pediatric Sleep Disorders at Children's Hospital Boston, one of the leading children's hospitals in the world.  If he's NOT a sleep expert, than I don't know who is.


    DD february 2010 | DS october 2011


    *please excuse my typos, bumping from my iphone*
  • Take this with a grain of salt because I really don't like CIO, especially so young, but whatever you do, do it consistently.  If you're going to do Ferber, do Ferber.  Doesn't matter if she's sick.  You are just going to drag it out and make the whole thing harder by sending mixed messages.  If I were you, I would re-read the part of the book that describes the method and follow it to a T.  If you're not willing to do that, you're better off doing nothing.

    Also, I'm pretty sure Ferber prefers waiting to 6 months for sleep training?  Could be wrong.  It's been a while since I've read it.
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