BM now refusing email communication, any thoughts?

Holly_1007 · February 2012

DH & BM have a strained relationship to say the least. BM is a huge control freak, and when something doesn't go her way she has an absolute temper tantrum (screaming, cursing, the works)

we are currently awaiting a court date to go back and modify our CO. right now it says that holidays are "to be agreed upon by the parties" which directly translates to whatever flipping time BM wants. and it also says " as SD gets older we can request more time with her as long as we give enough 'advance notice'" so even if we ask for something a year from now BM finds a way to not give us any more time.

DH's attorney has advised us to communicate via email with BM in order to arrange any visitation or schedule changes. BM has a habit of changing her mind last minute or pulling the "I never said that" card. the issue is that BM doesn't have a computer during the day while her husband is at work, so she can only respond at night/ over the weekend. DH told her multiple times that its not an issue and that it jsut means we need to plan things ahead of time. so in the beginning of january we started emailing her about SD's feb vacation, she decided she didn't want to respond so a week ago we emailed to verify times and once again she pulled the "I never said that card" except that we had it in the prior e-mails that she DID say we could have SD for extra time.

anyway, she threw a massive temper tantrum (pretty much because we caught her trying to pull one over on us) and said she doesnt want to use e-mail anymore, she will only communicate over the phone and in person.

we responded to the e-mail and said she can call and leave voice messages and we will verify over e-mail.

well she hasn't responded to the e-mail yet, probably wont just to prove a point.

what do we do? write notes and have her sign them (keeping in mind she refuses to speak to us during drop offs/ pick ups)? use snail mail? can a judge order her to correspond in e-mail? do we fork out a few hundred bucks and buy her a damn computer?? (DH is hugely opposed to this idea)

the e-mail thing really worked for us. DH and I both had the account synched to our phones so if there was a question about dates or times we both had instant access and didn't have to call her and say "uh we forgot, whats going on?" plus we were able to keep track of the specifics, and I guess in this case catch her trying to manipulate us! I know we can't MAKE her do anything, I'm just at a loss!

any insight??

dixneuf · February 2012

I know that DH and I only use the phone for emergencies. Email is our friend bc it leaves a "paper" trail and there is no room for these mysterious changes in plans. If she goes against what is written, that is her problem. If we show up when we said we would and she's not there, too bad.

We also try and deviate from the custody agreement as little as possible. We're going away without my SD next week and we're having family care for her on our days. It's not worth the drama with BM.

I don't know if this answers your question but that's the only solution we have found that really works! ("works")

Gwenillian · February 2012

I sympathize with your situation. I catch my XH in stuff all the time. Fortunately for me, he thinks it works in his favor (not sure how, but I'm not going to argue).

I would have your DH talk to his attorney & inform him/her of the new situation & ask if it can be stipulated somehow that communications (other than emergency situations) be done in writing. I'm not sure you can specify email since that would require equipment & internet access. However, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, you previously posted that you were the person doing the actual communications from DH's end - not him. If that comes to light it may not look so good for your DH - you may want to make sure he is the one doing the actual emailing from now on (at least looking it over & hitting send). Also, I thought you previously said that your DH was the one who was refusing to communicate verbally due to his inability to remember anything she said & that she actually had responded to your email requests verbally shortly after you'd made them. If you actually made it into an emailed demand vs. a request like your prior post stated, this could be construed as a refusal on your DH's part to be reasonable about communication as well. Be careful - since you are already headed to court, I would definitely talk to the lawyer before making any demands or anything. Let him/her know what has been said - including whatever you emailed her regarding what communication you would accept. The lawyer will know whether you could have a problem and if you are likely to be able to have that added to the CO.

dixneuf · February 2012

I should add that any time there is any room for interpretation in the custody agreement things go south... anything that says "to be agreed upon" means it will become a battle. We are moving to have EVERYTHING as clear as possible (child is at X house every other year for Christmas and will go to other parent at this time on this day). Seriously, times and everything!

My husband deals with emails, etc. on his own. I stay completely out of it. I actually try to not even ask until things get heated, for my own sanity.

Gwenillian · February 2012

dixneuf:

We are moving to have EVERYTHING as clear as possible (child is at X house every other year for Christmas and will go to other parent at this time on this day). Seriously, times and everything!

This is a really good idea.

Littlejen22 · February 2012

Gwenillian:
dixneuf:

We are moving to have EVERYTHING as clear as possible (child is at X house every other year for Christmas and will go to other parent at this time on this day). Seriously, times and everything!

This is a really good idea.

Almost all of the people on here that say their CO works for them have very detailed COs, details are good not bad.

Ilumine · February 2012

First, you can have telephone conversations with her, but within the telephone call SPECIFICALLY STATE that you are going to e-mail her with a summary e-mail of the discussion and what was finalized. STRESS that you will be going by what the summary email that you send.

Then continue with the e-mails. We all know that she is reading them. So do two things from now on,

1) start CC both of the laywers involved. Yours so the emails can go directly your file and hers, so she knows that she cannot misrepresent herself to him/her. That MAY force the lawyer to keep her in line.

2) put a very clear disclaimer at the end of each email - "Unless I receive a response email by XX date and time, I will view the data discussed in this email as the currently agreed upon decision (and then restate what you are talking about) So we will be at your house at 2pm for the exchange.".

And then be prepared to contact the police when you arrive on the time discussed. Show them your email trail (insist that they put a copy in the report). Then file a contempt charge EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Will that get expensive and tiresome - YOU BETCHA. Will it get tiresome and expensive for her - HELL YEA. It will also look bad once you get to court.

Holly_1007 · February 2012

Gwenillian:

I sympathize with your situation. I catch my XH in stuff all the time. Fortunately for me, he thinks it works in his favor (not sure how, but I'm not going to argue).

I would have your DH talk to his attorney & inform him/her of the new situation & ask if it can be stipulated somehow that communications (other than emergency situations) be done in writing. I'm not sure you can specify email since that would require equipment & internet access. However, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, you previously posted that you were the person doing the actual communications from DH's end - not him. If that comes to light it may not look so good for your DH - you may want to make sure he is the one doing the actual emailing from now on (at least looking it over & hitting send).

DH is telling me what he wants to say, I'm typing it out, he proofreads and sends. he knows the content of every e-mail, maybe not complete details of specific wording but he knows the general idea

Also, I thought you previously said that your DH was the one who was refusing to communicate verbally due to his inability to remember anything she said & that she actually had responded to your email requests verbally shortly after you'd made them.

we thought the issue was that DH was "forgetting" things, turns out she was manipulating the crap out of him. he would show up to get SD and SD wouldn't even be there, he thought that the lack of sleep was messing with his head, but it was mostly BM taking advantage of his sleep deprivation.

she responded to one request verbally, which we then e-mailed to verify, and she flipped and changed the whole situation around from what was said in a prior e-mail

If you actually made it into an emailed demand vs. a request like your prior post stated, this could be construed as a refusal on your DH's part to be reasonable about communication as well.

good call. we basically worded it that he wasn't comfortable playing the "he said she said" game anymore and would prefer all the schedule changes to be in writing.

Be careful - since you are already headed to court, I would definitely talk to the lawyer before making any demands or anything. Let him/her know what has been said - including whatever you emailed her regarding what communication you would accept. The lawyer will know whether you could have a problem and if you are likely to be able to have that added to the CO.

Holly_1007 · February 2012

thank you all for the input. it really would be in everyones favor to just use the e-mail she is just being difficult because we caught her trying to pull a fast one on us.

we are definitely going to be clarifying EVERYTHING when we go back to court, down to dates and times and get very specific to eliminate too many schedule changes.

the issue right now is that since we filed paperwork to go back to court BM is trying to pretend she's doing what the CO says and is actually giving us a few extra hours of visitation time, since these AREN'T in the CO she is making it VERY difficult.

We have forwarded all the e-mails to our attorney and asked his opinion, the next schedule change will be SD's april vacation, and we had already e-mailed our request prior to BM flipping out. I figure we will wait a week and then re-send the e-mail, asking her to confirm in writing by x date.

thanks again for all the input!

Gwenillian · February 2012

Ilumine:

First, you can have telephone conversations with her, but within the telephone call SPECIFICALLY STATE that you are going to e-mail her with a summary e-mail of the discussion and what was finalized. STRESS that you will be going by what the summary email that you send.

Then continue with the e-mails. We all know that she is reading them. So do two things from now on,

1) start CC both of the laywers involved. Yours so the emails can go directly your file and hers, so she knows that she cannot misrepresent herself to him/her. That MAY force the lawyer to keep her in line.

2) put a very clear disclaimer at the end of each email - "Unless I receive a response email by XX date and time, I will view the data discussed in this email as the currently agreed upon decision (and then restate what you are talking about) So we will be at your house at 2pm for the exchange.".

And then be prepared to contact the police when you arrive on the time discussed. Show them your email trail (insist that they put a copy in the report). Then file a contempt charge EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Will that get expensive and tiresome - YOU BETCHA. Will it get tiresome and expensive for her - HELL YEA. It will also look bad once you get to court.

Actually, unless it specifies that she must respond within a specific time frame and via a specific method in the CO, I don't think they can legally do this. They can't just force someone to communicate only via their preferred method - but the court can. Calling the cops on the other party when they aren't actually breaking the CO & there is no documentation that they actually agreed (not responding is not necessarily a legal agreement), is probably not a good idea & can make them look bad to the judge. Before trying this, I would definitely ask the attorney.

Holly_1007 · February 2012

Gwenillian:
Ilumine:

First, you can have telephone conversations with her, but within the telephone call SPECIFICALLY STATE that you are going to e-mail her with a summary e-mail of the discussion and what was finalized. STRESS that you will be going by what the summary email that you send.

Then continue with the e-mails. We all know that she is reading them. So do two things from now on,

1) start CC both of the laywers involved. Yours so the emails can go directly your file and hers, so she knows that she cannot misrepresent herself to him/her. That MAY force the lawyer to keep her in line.

2) put a very clear disclaimer at the end of each email - "Unless I receive a response email by XX date and time, I will view the data discussed in this email as the currently agreed upon decision (and then restate what you are talking about) So we will be at your house at 2pm for the exchange.".

And then be prepared to contact the police when you arrive on the time discussed. Show them your email trail (insist that they put a copy in the report). Then file a contempt charge EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Will that get expensive and tiresome - YOU BETCHA. Will it get tiresome and expensive for her - HELL YEA. It will also look bad once you get to court.

Actually, unless it specifies that she must respond within a specific time frame and via a specific method in the CO, I don't think they can legally do this. They can't just force someone to communicate only via their preferred method - but the court can. Calling the cops on the other party when they aren't actually breaking the CO & there is no documentation that they actually agreed (not responding is not necessarily a legal agreement), is probably not a good idea & can make them look bad to the judge. Before trying this, I would definitely ask the attorney.

thats what I'm thinking too, we can't FORCE her to communicate via email, but honestly, can she really FORCE us NOT to? besides by just not responding. hence my dilemna. waiting to see what the attorney says at this point. considering she only has access to a computer on nights/ weekends I'm thinking a judge wont madate her to communicate via email. I'm very tempted to just tell DH to send all the schedule changes to her attorney for approval and just rack up her lawyer fees!

Littlejen22 · February 2012

Actually she can force you not to use email, she can stop using her email account and say she does not have access to a computer at home. But, if she will not put things in writing or will not respond to you then contact her through her lawyer. I would personally start with sending her a certified letter stating your requests and give her a deadline to reply, if she does not reply then send it to the lawyer. Better yet ask your lawyer how to proceed.

CFjo2010 · February 2012

I vote you go the expensive route, and have all communications regarding visitation go through the attorneys. Contact your attorney with what you want to discuss, have him contact BM's attorney and that way BOTH attorneys are aware of the problems with "miscommunication". It will give her attorney a chance to keep her in line, and everything will be documented. Once she gets her first bill doing it this way, she'll be more inclined to deal with your husband directly. It will be expensive for you as well, but at least it will lead to everything being documented.

Ilumine · February 2012

Gwenillian:
Ilumine:

First, you can have telephone conversations with her, but within the telephone call SPECIFICALLY STATE that you are going to e-mail her with a summary e-mail of the discussion and what was finalized. STRESS that you will be going by what the summary email that you send.

Then continue with the e-mails. We all know that she is reading them. So do two things from now on,

1) start CC both of the laywers involved. Yours so the emails can go directly your file and hers, so she knows that she cannot misrepresent herself to him/her. That MAY force the lawyer to keep her in line.

2) put a very clear disclaimer at the end of each email - "Unless I receive a response email by XX date and time, I will view the data discussed in this email as the currently agreed upon decision (and then restate what you are talking about) So we will be at your house at 2pm for the exchange.".

And then be prepared to contact the police when you arrive on the time discussed. Show them your email trail (insist that they put a copy in the report). Then file a contempt charge EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Will that get expensive and tiresome - YOU BETCHA. Will it get tiresome and expensive for her - HELL YEA. It will also look bad once you get to court.

Actually, unless it specifies that she must respond within a specific time frame and via a specific method in the CO, I don't think they can legally do this. They can't just force someone to communicate only via their preferred method - but the court can. Calling the cops on the other party when they aren't actually breaking the CO & there is no documentation that they actually agreed (not responding is not necessarily a legal agreement), is probably not a good idea & can make them look bad to the judge. Before trying this, I would definitely ask the attorney.

Sorry, but all types of negotiations, from custodial to work to even happy family grocery shopping lists, have a "stop time". If not, people would be effed over all of the time. Can you imagine what life would be like in an office if every single project was able to be changed at the very last minute?

Expecting to have a finalized plan by a reasonable set time BEFORE the action is...well REASONABLE. And this is NOT just for the sake of just one party, but works for both parties.

Can the BP refuse to follow through? Sure thing. But that opens HER to looking vindictive when the OP's DH shows up at the previously agreed upon & written up time.

Ilumine · February 2012

Ilumine:
Gwenillian:
Ilumine:

First, you can have telephone conversations with her, but within the telephone call SPECIFICALLY STATE that you are going to e-mail her with a summary e-mail of the discussion and what was finalized. STRESS that you will be going by what the summary email that you send.

Then continue with the e-mails. We all know that she is reading them. So do two things from now on,

1) start CC both of the laywers involved. Yours so the emails can go directly your file and hers, so she knows that she cannot misrepresent herself to him/her. That MAY force the lawyer to keep her in line.

2) put a very clear disclaimer at the end of each email - "Unless I receive a response email by XX date and time, I will view the data discussed in this email as the currently agreed upon decision (and then restate what you are talking about) So we will be at your house at 2pm for the exchange.".

And then be prepared to contact the police when you arrive on the time discussed. Show them your email trail (insist that they put a copy in the report). Then file a contempt charge EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Will that get expensive and tiresome - YOU BETCHA. Will it get tiresome and expensive for her - HELL YEA. It will also look bad once you get to court.

Actually, unless it specifies that she must respond within a specific time frame and via a specific method in the CO, I don't think they can legally do this. They can't just force someone to communicate only via their preferred method - but the court can. Calling the cops on the other party when they aren't actually breaking the CO & there is no documentation that they actually agreed (not responding is not necessarily a legal agreement), is probably not a good idea & can make them look bad to the judge. Before trying this, I would definitely ask the attorney.

Sorry, but all types of negotiations, from custodial to work to even happy family grocery shopping lists, have a "stop time". If not, people would be effed over all of the time. Can you imagine what life would be like in an office if every single project was able to be changed at the very last minute?

Expecting to have a finalized plan by a reasonable set time BEFORE the action is...well REASONABLE. And this is NOT just for the sake of just one party, but works for both parties.

Can the BP refuse to follow through? Sure thing. But that opens HER to looking vindictive when the OP's DH shows up at the previously agreed upon & written up time.

ANd that is the whole point of this...the OPs BM is nto just changing her mind, but totally not showing up/providing access to the child on a previously agreed upon ORAL time.

Given the OP probably doesnt want to spend thousands of dollars having to go through the laywer (as well as the BM), this is a good alternative.

And I do believe that, given the summary email was also sent to HER lawyer, she is going to follow through with her agreement OR at the very least start being reasonable with her communications.

+j+k+ · February 2012

I'd say "Fine. Let's go back to phone conversations." Then I'd either record the conversations on my phone, or if you don't have that ability, buy a little recorder, put all important calls with her on speaker and record her. It may take a little finagling if you're in public or at work, but it's worth it until you get the CO modified.

As far as her temper tantrums - let her have them. Just don't stick around for them. As soon as she starts ranting, say over her, "I'm sorry, but I'll have to talk to you later when you can speak to me in your adult voice." and hang up or if it's in person, turn around and leave. Refuse to engage with her when she goes to that mode. Immediately and calmly shut down all communication.

This shows her it does not work anymore and it's unacceptable. It will get worse before it gets better - more than likely she'll scream louder and more or try different tantrum tactics but eventually she'll see it has no effect and it will stop or lessen considerably with you.

CFjo2010 · February 2012

+j+k+:
I'd say "Fine. Let's go back to phone conversations." Then I'd either record the conversations on my phone, or if you don't have that ability, buy a little recorder, put all important calls with her on speaker and record her. It may take a little finagling if you're in public or at work, but it's worth it until you get the CO modified.

As far as her temper tantrums - let her have them. Just don't stick around for them. As soon as she starts ranting, say over her, "I'm sorry, but I'll have to talk to you later when you can speak to me in your adult voice." and hang up or if it's in person, turn around and leave. Refuse to engage with her when she goes to that mode. Immediately and calmly shut down all communication.

This shows her it does not work anymore and it's unacceptable. It will get worse before it gets better - more than likely she'll scream louder and more or try different tantrum tactics but eventually she'll see it has no effect and it will stop or lessen considerably with you.

^^ All if this too. Just make sure you are telling her that the conversation is being recorded (start the recording with DH announcing it's being recorded). Most states will not accept recordings if the other party has not consented. If BM does not consent to being recorded, make sure DH records himself saying his email address and inviting BM to email or text him. Then end the call.

As for her public tantrums, most police departments will do a "keep the peace" and be present for exchanges. While this may not be ideal for LO to see police at exchanges, it's also not ideal for LO to see a grown woman throwing temper tantrums. You may need to record one of these tantrums on camera first, but one time is really all that should be needed.

Gwenillian · February 2012

Ilumine:

Sorry, but all types of negotiations, from custodial to work to even happy family grocery shopping lists, have a "stop time". If not, people would be effed over all of the time. Can you imagine what life would be like in an office if every single project was able to be changed at the very last minute?

Expecting to have a finalized plan by a reasonable set time BEFORE the action is...well REASONABLE. And this is NOT just for the sake of just one party, but works for both parties.

Can the BP refuse to follow through? Sure thing. But that opens HER to looking vindictive when the OP's DH shows up at the previously agreed upon & written up time.

There is a difference between a work environment and a custody battle which OP is already in the middle of. I'm not saying BM isn't being a jerk - she is. Nor do I think asking to do things via email is unreasonable. However, one party cannot legally force the other party to either a. respond via the means they prefer or b. respond by a certain time or 'we will just assume your agreement'. If I ever just assumed my ex's agreement on something just because he didn't respond, I'd be able to do all sorts of things without his consent - after which he would promptly take me to court for contempt (violating his right to visitation time, decision on doctors, etc...). And he would very likely win because I would have no evidence of his acceptance, only evidence of my demands.

What OP & her DH need is for the court to adjust the CO to include essentially what a timely response is (two weeks - or whatever), manners of communication that are acceptable to both parties (written - I don't think a court will force email specifically given the BM's lack of access), as well as other specifics that may need to be added (holidays, who drops off/picks up & when, yada yada). Since she & her DH are already there to adjust the CO for something, this situation with BM (and any other recent ones) should be discussed with the lawyer as reasons why the court should make the changes - it's necessary due to BM's refusal to coparent.

As for taping phone conversations, as a pp said, without consent that is rarely admissable & in many states is actually illegal & can get OP into trouble.

rachi1285 · February 2012

This doesn't directly answer your question but... I created an Outlook calendar that DH, BM and I share. We're all horrible at remembering who had the kids last Thanksgiving (it alternates each year) so this way we can keep track. And if anything ever changes (like we watch the kids for her the day after Thanksgiving so she can work and get OT *really? maybe you should spend more time with your kids*) I update the calendar right away so we have it for our records. She's always talking about pushing for child support (no one pays anything right now) but we're so close to being 50/50 that every half-day with the kids counts!

Holly_1007 · February 2012

rachi1285:

This doesn't directly answer your question but... I created an Outlook calendar that DH, BM and I share. We're all horrible at remembering who had the kids last Thanksgiving (it alternates each year) so this way we can keep track. And if anything ever changes (like we watch the kids for her the day after Thanksgiving so she can work and get OT *really? maybe you should spend more time with your kids*) I update the calendar right away so we have it for our records. She's always talking about pushing for child support (no one pays anything right now) but we're so close to being 50/50 that every half-day with the kids counts!

I would LOVE to go this route with it, we just don't agree on ANYTHING. its constantly a fight. plus BM is computer illiterate. e-mail was about as much as she could handle

thanks for the input though!

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