These posts are not very encouraging

Athena0809 · January 2012

I agree with just about everything AP stands for, but every time I come to the board 75% of all posts are about sleep help. I don't agree with CIO, though I did try a modified version and decided it's not for us, but I also don't condemn parents for using that method either. Anyway, my point is it looks like most AP families have babies/kids waking up very often, am I wrong? Are there any AP families that have babies sttn? I love being nurturing to DS, I love bedsharing with him...I just don't want a 2 yr old waking up every two hours to nurse or a toddler I can't get out of my bed...

Any AP families out here that can shine some light and give me hope, please!?

lkstor · January 2012

DS1 sttn. Things got dramatically better when we put him on a floor mattress shortly after a year and then night weaned at 16 months. No CIO. He figured it out on his own, albeit later than my friends who use Ferber.

anna7602 · January 2012

DD started sttn around 5 months consistently. I found that she was more likely to sleep later in the morning (after sttn) if she was in bed with me/us than if she was sleeping by herself.

DD has really only woken up at night when she's feverish, teething, sick or dealing with some major life anxiety issue (starting school, having me work away from home more than usual, etc.). I am the person who drives all of my friends crazy when I say things like "DD woke up last night in the middle of the night, something HAS to be wrong." That really is the case for her. Even when I don't immediately know what it is, I will figure out very soon that the new tooth in her mouth was the reason she woke up 4 nights before or that the terrible thing her best friend said to her in school last Thursday, which she just told me about today, is the reason she was up last Thursday night at 2am crying.

Her daytime sleep was pretty crap from ages 0-6 months and then from about 18 months on (meaning she only napped consistently for a 1 year period there). She gave up napping entirely at 23 months and the adjustment suuuucked, but I can't complain about the fact that she sleeps a solid 13-14 hours every night.

ncbelle · January 2012

Callum transitioned to a floor bed in his room around 15 months with no issues. He started STTN (as in all night) some about that same time and I night weaned a month later (he was still nursing on the nights he did wake).

I strongly believe that babies will STTN when they are ready with a gentle nudge in that direction (for us it was nightweaning although I wouldn't nightwean a kid under 1).

Although who knows what the next few months will bring with Eleanor's sleep, I will say she is already a different sleeper than Callum despite me doing the exact same things. A lot of how "good" a sleeper your kid is boils down to their personality!

ncbelle · January 2012

Oh and I'd also add...I know plenty of people who did sleep train had great sleepers for a while and then had toddler sleep setbacks (which we have had here and there too). A quick visit to the toddler boards will confirm that! Point being, many kids experience night wakings on and off through childhood - it's just part of being a toddler!

Athena0809 · January 2012

ncbelle:

Callum transitioned to a floor bed in his room around 15 months with no issues. He started STTN (as in all night) some about that same time and I night weaned a month later (he was still nursing on the nights he did wake).

I strongly believe that babies will STTN when they are ready with a gentle nudge in that direction (for us it was nightweaning although I wouldn't nightwean a kid under 1).

Although who knows what the next few months will bring with Eleanor's sleep, I will say she is already a different sleeper than Callum despite me doing the exact same things. A lot of how "good" a sleeper your kid is boils down to their personality!

I agree. In reading different books I'm convinced that it varies from kid to kid. Although DS wakes up very often and I am so sleep deprived I feel like a baby needs to be a baby and one day when I can't get him out of bed I will be missing our days of bedsharing...but right now I'd kill for 4 straight hours!

I wanted to hear some success stories, not just the "LO won't sleep please help", thanks!

tokenhoser · January 2012

I think my problem is that telling me he might sleep when he hits 15 months isn't encouraging at all. It makes me think "I can't live that long like this". Because I can't live that long like this.

Have you read No Cry Sleep Solution? We're doing some ideas from that for the next few weeks while my house is full of family, and it at least makes me feel like there ARE ways to encourage sleep aside from "just live with it for another year and hope it magically changes".

lanie30 · January 2012

tokenhoser:
I think my problem is that telling me he might sleep when he hits 15 months isn't encouraging at all. It makes me think "I can't live that long like this". Because I can't live that long like this.
Have you read No Cry Sleep Solution? We're doing some ideas from that for the next few weeks while my house is full of family, and it at least makes me feel like there ARE ways to encourage sleep aside from "just live with it for another year and hope it magically changes".

Amen. "Go for a swift walk in the sunshine and your fatigue will disappear." No. If your fatigue disappears with a swift walk in the sunshine I can guarantee you you have a child that lets you sleep more than an hour at a time.

Athena0809 · January 2012

tokenhoser:

I think my problem is that telling me he might sleep when he hits 15 months isn't encouraging at all. It makes me think "I can't live that long like this". Because I can't live that long like this.

Have you read No Cry Sleep Solution? We're doing some ideas from that for the next few weeks while my house is full of family, and it at least makes me feel like there ARE ways to encourage sleep aside from "just live with it for another year and hope it magically changes".

Not yet, it's the next one on my night table, I'm on Dr. Sear's The Baby Sleep Book. I find it encouraging to know that what I'm doing is normal, but I don't find ecouraging that this might be a long phase. He even reccomends nursing to sleep in one part of the book when that is the one thing trying to break away from!

tokenhoser · January 2012

Steph&Harry08:
tokenhoser:

I think my problem is that telling me he might sleep when he hits 15 months isn't encouraging at all. It makes me think "I can't live that long like this". Because I can't live that long like this.

Have you read No Cry Sleep Solution? We're doing some ideas from that for the next few weeks while my house is full of family, and it at least makes me feel like there ARE ways to encourage sleep aside from "just live with it for another year and hope it magically changes".

Not yet, it's the next one on my night table, I'm on Dr. Sear's The Baby Sleep Book. I find it encouraging to know that what I'm doing is normal, but I don't find ecouraging that this might be a long phase. He even reccomends nursing to sleep in one part of the book when that is the one thing trying to break away from!

Switch books! Pantley acknowledges that nursing to sleep is normal and common... but also give ideas to get out of the habit. Right now I'm doing the Gentle Removal Plan - I do nurse him when he wakes up, but after a minute or two of sucking I start pulling my boob away. So at least our (many many) wakeups are down to < 5 minutes.

spunkyprincessmande · January 2012

Once we night weaned (last month) Micah started sleeping through the night much more regularly. He still wakes up probably once or twice a week, but it takes about 2 minutes to get him back down so we're okay with that (especially b/c I'm waking up several times a night to go to the bathroom anyway!). When we night-weaned DH would get up with him so that he didn't have the option of me feeding him. It took about 3 nights and he stopped. And he was always fine with DH going in there and him not getting any milk, so it was a really easy transition for us. I agree with pp, though, I think it worked b/c he was ready for it.

ncbelle · January 2012

tokenhoser:
I think my problem is that telling me he might sleep when he hits 15 months isn't encouraging at all. It makes me think "I can't live that long like this". Because I can't live that long like this.
Have you read No Cry Sleep Solution? We're doing some ideas from that for the next few weeks while my house is full of family, and it at least makes me feel like there ARE ways to encourage sleep aside from "just live with it for another year and hope it magically changes".

I'd agree with the NCSS rec - we started doing the Pantley pull off well before I stopped night nursing which I think made things easier.

I should maybe qualify my "didn't STTN" with the fact that we bed shared until he did and he only very rarely stayed awake during the night - it was more like rustling to nurse. As a result, I never felt tired unless I'd just stayed up to late ;-) Had we been dealing with a kiddo that stayed awake for long periods in the night, I probably would have been more hard core about using some of the NCSS ideas. The best take away from that book is that learning good sleep habits isn't something that happens overnight - it's something that is shaped over time.

Harper'smom · January 2012

We never needed to do any kid of nightime sleep training with DD. Being "AP" didn't lead to what one might label as poor sleep habits. She has always slept to the shorter side of the normal range by age as defined by Ferber, so if normal was 6-8 hrs she was doing 6. Aside from nap troubles the most difficult thing for us was the realization that sleep was not linear.

I expect #2 to throw some new tricks at us so I can't predict what we will or won't do specifically in regards to sleep training but we fully intend to co-sleep or bed share, nurse on demand for an extended period of time, and not force any schedules, etc.etc.

LittleDucky · January 2012

I agree with some of the PPs that there are ways to feel completely well-rested when your kiddos don't STTN and a lot of it depends on what you mean when you say your kid doesn't STTN. For example, DS sleeps in his crib until sometime between 10 and midnight and then in our bed for the rest of the night, and he generally nurses between 2 and 4 times during the night. But I barely wake up and he barely wakes up. I wake up enough to offer the breast and immediately fall back asleep again, and he very rarely stays awake when he wakes up to nurse (if he does refuse to go back to sleep, it is usually because he has a cold or is teething or something - things that would wake up ANY baby, even one who has been sleep trained and generally DOES sttn!). He just nurses back to sleep again. I find that I can be perfectly well-rested this way, and DH, DS, and I all enjoy the nighttime snuggles. I'm fine with just continuing along this way until DS seems to not want to nurse at night anymore, or until it isn't working for us for whatever reason.

This has been our pattern for several months now, and while it is true that DS doesn't STTN, it is a very different picture from the way things were when he was younger and he woke up all the time, had trouble with nursing in a side-lying position, and fought going back to sleep again.

I guess this is my long rambling way of saying that, for us, AP-style night parenting has worked for us and I wouldn't say we have any sleep problems, even though DS still wakes to nurse.

Temp108743750006959 · January 2012

We did pick up/put down from birth. I knew that I was a person that couldnt CIO until much later - but wearing a child, pacing a floor or bed sharing is simply not for me. DS was already used to get picked up as soon as needed - but also used to then being put back down...sometimes a gazillion times. I had some long nights - but long term our nights were great. If DS is sick, of course, that's different.

We did CIO - one night - at 6 months.

I'm a fan of 'do short term for what you want to shape long term.'

LouiseB2001 · January 2012

A different more broad answer to your question about posts: I think that sleep issues are one of those things that really get mothers frustrated and hence we tend to post more posts on that. Thinking back, I posted my share of "help, DD is not sleeping at all" posts, but at the same time I will say that DD is not a bad sleeper and never has been. She is just a fairly normal baby/toddler (and I am writing this as she cried herself to sleep tonight because she simply couldn't stay asleep after I had rubbed her arm, her back, sung several lullabies and tried reasoning with her. In the end DH and I went in there every 5 minutes and explained quietly that little girls need to sleep). I think it really helps, no matter actual pieces of advise, to hear that you are not the only one with a baby who finds it hard to sleep. Therefore people like to post about not getting any sleep. So don't worry, it will get better and your toddler won't wake up every 2nd hour :-)

j&lo82907 · January 2012

DS sleeps through the night ONLY if he is in my bed in my arms. If he is in bed with DH and I he sleeps from like 9pm until 7am when we wake up. I have put him in his crib and then he gets up like 3 times a night. So in my experience babies sleep better in bed with their parents.

aliciaroset · January 2012

I think the vast majority of babies have sleep issues no matter what parenting style is used.

tokenhoser · January 2012

aliciaroset:
I think the vast majority of babies have sleep issues no matter what parenting style is used.

Which really means that the vast majority of parents have expectation issues... which I agree with to a point.

But I'm getting too tired to carry on with the "let's wait and see where this goes" method.

SandiaPinaMama · January 2012

LO is mostly STTN now, and has been since around 7 months-ish. I think the reason I posted here about my sleep concerns is that I was looking for other answers beside the CIO I got elsewhere. Although I agree with PPs that all babies have "sleep issues" or parents with expectation issues.

When I posted here about sleep, I got directed to the Sleep Lady Shuffle website, which helped me realize that I was not being consistent enough in bedtime/get up time, that LO needed to go down earlier, LO needed more napping hours each day, etc. I didn't actually follow her night plan.

I did, however, decided that since LO was perfectly willing to go 4 hours between nursing during the day, that he could go 4 hours at night. At the time, he was nursing consistently at 11, so I decided I would not nurse again until 3 am. I did everything else, and he did fall back asleep eventually. Not only did he start giving me 4 hour stretches, but he dropped the 11 pm feeding. Now I put him down around 7 or 8, whenever the eye rubs start, and he wakes sometime between 3 and 6. He goes down in his crib, and I bring him to bed with us when he wakes. This is mostly because it wakes me up too much to sit in the nursery and nurse, and then I can't get back to sleep. I am working on changing this, since I am beginning to resent never having my own space. All of that is not exactly what you asked, but I thought it may help you to know. I am very happy, getting lots of rest, and no one is CIO.

sweetpea2003 · January 2012

I hope you don't mind me answering, I don't label myself AP really. I breastfeed, baby wear, and believe in gentle discipline. But when it comes to sleep, I really veer away from AP.

Both of my children slept in our room until about 4 months (in a arm's reach co-sleeper, neither of us felt comfortable with them being in the bed with us). They both then went into their cribs. I am very very much into a strict nap and bedtime routine because I believe that sleep begets sleep (that good naps create good overnight sleep and vice versa). Both of my kids got more solid nights sleep in their own rooms. I LOVED having them with me for those 4 months - it made nursing much easier for me - but we all didn't sleep as well.

I paired the teachings of Ferber and Weissbluth ("Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child"). The thing that stuck with me (and that I have found to be very true) is that you are giving your kids an incredible gift when they learn to sleep well. I also believe children need a nudge, but I don't think it should be at 16 months. All of that development and learning they do between 6 and 16 months is hindered if you have a tired, crabby baby. And if YOU are tired - they are likely tired too. They need more sleep than you do and if you are both up - well, you know where I am going...

My basic feelings are - establish GOOD nap routines and STICK TO THEM. There is a lot of sacrifice involved with making sure your kiddos have the time and space to nap. NO "motion" sleep when you are counting it for a nap. NO carseat sleep, no swing sleep, and no sling sleep. They have done studies that show that kiddos don't get the deep sleep they need when in motion. They should be in your bed or in their crib.

Solid, early bedtimes. Most kiddos are ready to be in bed by 6 or 7 PM as early as 4 months old. A lot of parents just keep them up until 9 or 10 because they think that is what the baby wants. Both of my kids have started going down at 7 pretty early.

As for the hard part - crying - I tend to follow Ferber more than Weissbluth. I never let my chidren cry prior to 6 or 7 months of age. After that I did gradual extinction. What I think a lot of "anti-Ferber" (who probably have never read Ferber) don't understand is that this stuff works INCREDIBLY fast. There is actually very little crying involved in the long scheme of things. Less, IMO, than some of the "gentle" "no cry" means that don't really get to the root of the issue quickly. If your kiddo is still crying in the middle of the night at 14 or 16 months of age, then they have cried a hell of a lot more than my kids who might have cried (for 1-3 minutes at a time) for a week or so. Ferber typically takes about a week. It is not months or years of crying.

Weissbluth is great to give you good sleep expectations. It isn't right to expect a 6 month old to STTN. Those kiddos might need a feeding at 3AM and that is totally normal and to be expected. When you know what can be expected in a healthy kid and how to react to it without going backward on sleep habits it is incredibly comforting. Because I wasn't trying to do any crazy "12 hours by 12 weeks" stuff, I think both of my kids were eased into overnight sleep very gently.

At the end, both of my kids started STTN without feedings or wake-ups by about 9 or 10 months. My 2.5 year old has never regressed. The only time she wakes (and it is RARE) is when she is very sick. Like fever and vomiting or croup. And that has only happened a handful of times.

Obviously, I do not practice "AP" sleeping because we do not bed share. It isn't right for us. And I personally feel like we all get better sleep. I just wanted to give you a different perspective from another "gentle" parent. FOR ME, sleep is one of those things that is completely important in imperative to me. More for them than me. And fwiw, reading this board makes me so confident in my decisions and actions. I think that letting the baby take the lead on sleep is a mistake. Especially once they are a toddler. Habits are incredibly hard to break, it is much easier to form GOOD habits early.

kcisthebombdotcom · January 2012

I have yet to meet a parent ever, no matter what their parenting technique, that had a LO that never went through a period of bad sleep. Even a friend of mine, who did CIO at 6 months old and who always raved her DD was an amazing sleeper, has recently had her nearly 3 year old have major sleep issues. She's tried every trick in the book and nothing will work-she's been up with her nearly 3 year old every 3 hours every night.

Teething, sickness, separation anxiety, developmental changes, night terrors, nightmares-there's a million reasons why your child's sleep can be disturbed. It's only natural that during times of poor sleep you reach out to others to try to find a solution to make life easier for eveyone. The idea that you have a child, you get through the first few months of getting up a lot, and then they sleep 12 hours straight for the rest of their lives is an unbelievably unrealistic expectation.

FWIW, my 2 year old started STTN at 4 weeks, and minus some short regressions when cutting molars and such has always slept well. He bedshared until 18 months, then we moved him into his own bed and he slept 12 hours straight from that first night. I think some kids are prone to sleeping better/worse, and it has nothing to do with where they sleep or if you let them CIO for a week or not.

Athena0809 · January 2012

Thank you ladies for all your input, and thank you for not turning this into a debate like past posts!

FWIW, DS goes down between 8pm and 9pm every night wakes up only after three hours usually then it's every two hours to nurse(even while bedsharing), we bedshare from 1 or 2 am until his usual wake up time between 8 or 9 am, only because around 2 am is when I can no longer stay awake, I love bedsharing and I do feel like he belongs with me in bed, last night we were in bed and nursing but he was still fussing, he started to reach out with his left arm and I said to DH I bet he wants you, sure enough he held on to DH's hand and then grabbed my hand with his right hand and fell asleep shortly after. How can you say no to that!? But I wished that he would have longer stretches. We tried Ferber (with much shorter time intervals) and after a little over a week I decided it was not for us. I felt that his crying meant something else, plus I believe in when LOs cry that much the cortisol hormone goes way up and it's not good for babies to be so stressed out nor did I want him to associate bed=crying and anxiety.

I'm not exactly just "waiting it out" we are working on breaking boob=sleep by letting him fall asleep in other ways or comforting him the first time he wakes up and usually we won't nurse then, he can fall asleep and wait till next time...around 1 or 2 when I give in!

Thanks for posting your experiences with your LO's!

erinkate23 · January 2012

When DS is sleeping well, I don't post about it. Just seems mean to the zombie mamas who are struggling.

DS has gone through periods of STTN (from 6 weeks to 6 months, and from about 12 months to now). We have never CIO and bedshare most of the time. Even when he woke up regularly, he would have occasional nights of sleeping, and now he has occasional nights of wakefulness.

The best thing we've done as parents was to stop worrying about sleep so much. Yes, the wakings suck, and when they are every hour or more, it's hard to think about anything else... but I stopped looking at his sleep as a "problem to be solved" and looked at it instead as a stage that would resolve on its own, and an opportunity to cuddle with a little boy who someday won't want to snuggle with me. The stress of feeling I should DO something was almost as bad as the sleep deprivation. If DS wakes up 4x in a night (like last night), I get Starbucks and go to bed with him that night. If he sleeps, I don't think of it as a "success", just a good night's sleep.

I hope that makes sense... ?

Uiowachick01 · January 2012

We have had a LO that STTN since maybe 8 weeks old. He was always a good sleeper(4-6 hr sleeps from birth). Of course he wakes up from time to time (teething, sick, to nurse, cold etc.)but this can't be attributed to the fact that we practice a AP style of parenting. All children wake up during the night for one reason or another. I think posters are coming to the AP board for a alternative solution to CIO. That is why it seems we have so many STTN posts.

Under.the.Rose · January 2012

When he was 12 months old, I was starting to feel pretty desperate that we wouldn't be able to get DS out of our bed. He hit a phase where he wasn't sleeping well with us anymore (kicking, fidgeting, waking up more, etc) and, therefore, we weren't either... plus with me being pregnant I knew it was time to move him to his crib.

It was a rough start at first because I was just getting back to work full time and he was cutting molars at the same time as this sleep stuff was going on. Once his molars came in, it was like night and day. He's always typically really clingy/cuddly when he's not feeling well so this made sense.

I've made his crib super comfy (similar to our bed) so it was easier for him -- gave him a flat pillow, folded up his quilt underneath him and added a mattress pad so it was softer, etc. He also wears a sleep sack and has a heavier blanket and two pacifiers with him. I also turn on the fan for some white noise.

As he's drifting off, I always lean over the crib for a few minutes and have my hand on his belly or shoulder/arm... partially for comfort, partially to keep him lying down... haha... In the Sears book they recommend laying a hand on baby's back or tummy too.

Lately I even turn on some jazz music (he loves the Charlie Brown Christmas soundtrack!).

Sounds like a crazy routine, but so far it's been working like a charm! The time I've been spending in the room has been decreasing steadily and he's been sleeping through the night since I started this routine (9pm - 7am).

Quazel · January 2012

I think so much depends on the kid. Honestly, and this supports the OP, my DS woke a LOT until I weaned him almost two months ago at 33 months old. I attribute some of that to his eating disorder and that I nursed him at night to get calorie in him, then it became a comfort issue once he was actually eating and didn't need night nursing.

My SIL does not follow AP but never had to CIO. My niece started STTN at 5 weeks old. By 10 months old, you would read her a story in her room and she would point to the crib when you were done, slept for 12 hours at a time. She is now 16 months old and tells you when she wants to go to bed, she now sleeps 11-12 hours a night. My SIL say they didn't do anything, she just likes to sleep.

To look at our children, you would think AP is absolutely terrible for sleep but I think it is more of a case of different personality kids, different situations, etc.

x0stephanie · January 2012

Steph&Harry08:
I agree with just about everything AP stands for, but every time I come to the board 75% of all posts are about sleep help. I don't agree with CIO, though I did try a modified version and decided it's not for us, but I also don't condemn parents for using that method either. Anyway, my point is it looks like most AP families have babies/kids waking up very often, am I wrong? Are there any AP families that have babies sttn? I love being nurturing to DS, I love bedsharing with him...I just don't want a 2 yr old waking up every two hours to nurse or a toddler I can't get out of my bed...

Any AP families out here that can shine some light and give me hope, please!?

We don't co-sleep. I've always had a great sleeper, ever since 6 weeks he's been pretty much sttn and now at 5 months is sleeping 9 hours at night. I think thats the main differnce though.. he's not right next to me, he might wake up in the middle of the night, grumble for a minute and fall back asleep before I'm even in his room to check on him. If he were next to me in bed he'd probably expect to be fed.

It seems like most cosleepers have babies who are up a lot though

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