Comment Got Me Thinking...(super long)

mork · December 2011

Warning: this is probably going to be long, but it should spark an interesting conversation. Smile

Oh, and I?m not trying to start a debate or anything, I?m just curious, and don?t know how I actually feel about this yet.

I read a blog today by a lady who just finished her first IVF cycle. Unfortunately, it resulted in a BFN. What shocked me was that most of the comments began with ?I?m sorry for your loss.? I re-read the original post and the comments a couple of times to see if I missed something. She never got a BFP. So, did she experience a loss? To help decide what I really think, I decided to look at it from a couple of perspectives.

First, I examined it based on the whole when does life start debate. If I believe life starts when sperm fertilizes egg, then I can see how the embryo not implanting (or maybe not continuing to divide) could be a loss of life. But, using this logic, then shouldn?t the comments have read losses, not loss? After all, she had a number of eggs actually fertilized (I think it was 10), but only 1 transferred back, and 4 frozen. So, if I think about it that way, she lost five babies this cycle, not just one.

And, if I follow through on that logic, many women who have ever had unprotected (or some cases even protected) sex and a period have experienced a loss, if not multiple. Follow me for a second (and I promise my knowledge actually comes from a degree in Biology Smile

): even when pg does not result from a cycle, the egg sometimes still has been fertilized by a sperm, but there were implantation or development problems that prevented pg from occurring. (Ok, I guess at this point I have to realize that I?m using ?pg? to mean a perceivable increase in HCG. That?s a good realization for me.)

In addition, some types of birth control actually just prevent implantation, not fertilization. So, again, you would get sperm meeting egg, and ?life,? if that?s the view I?m taking. So, if that?s true, a pretty good darn percentage of women have experienced multiple losses, although they were completely unaware of it. That?s really depressing, although it does make me feel a little less alone. Although I just realized that would mean I?ve lost many, many, more than just four babies. Sad

Ok, time to move on to a different thought approach. Let?s leave the when life starts debate on the sideline and just take the lady?s circumstances into consideration here. This particular lady is having to use IVF because of severe MFI. It would pretty much be impossible for pg to occur any other way. So, is it a loss because there was an embryo, when there usually wouldn?t be for them? (Again, I go back to the thought that it would be losses because there were many embryos that didn?t make it during the process. And, really, they were likely lost for the same generalized reasons as the transferred embryo: growth or implantation issues. But, I digress.)

I get that the IVF process can be much longer and more detailed than the non-IVF processes, although I would never claim to ?understand,? because, like a loss, you can?t understand it until you?ve been there. But, do these circumstances alone elevate the lack of growth or implantation in an IVF uterus to a loss, when it?s not considered a loss when the same thing occurs in a non-IVF uterus? I feel for anyone who?s gone through IVF, and I feel for those that try in other ways, and I?m not sure I?m ok with labeling or treating their experiences differently. But then, IVF ladies do appear to get fewer chances, purely due to prep and cycle length (not to mention monetary considerations). Ah! I don?t know what I think!

Holy crap, this got long.

Ok, short and simple: I still don?t know if I consider a BFN IVF cycle a loss. I see arguments for both sides. What do you ladies think?

P.S. I did not intend to insult anyone or start a nasty debate, and apologize if I did or do. I?m honestly just trying to figure this out. I welcome anyone and everyone who has a comment or suggestion to make it here for me to consider while my brain mulls this out. Thank you and you all deserve massive amounts of wonderful treats, but I will refrain from PIPing, as this post is already way longer than anyone in their right mind would write. Smile

ETA: stupid m*therf*ingbump

delino · December 2011

My thinking is that with IVF you know for certain that an egg was fertilized and an embryo developing vs a normal cycle it is not known if an egg was ever fertilized. Of course there are many instances that there was fertilization, but no implantation...but you wouldn't know like you do with IVF.

buckeyebaby814 · December 2011

I don't know enough about it/ haven't thought about it to really form an opinion. To me, this may kind of be a situation where there's some people who think an early loss/CP is not really a loss since you didn't see the HB or there was no HB, KWIM? Of course I feel VERY differently, HB or not, early or not, a loss is a loss... but then again, I'm coming from my frame of reference.

In short, I don't know what I think. I can definitely see where the posters are seeing it as a 'loss', which if I had to give a opinion, I guess I'd agree.

lavril · December 2011

To add a different perspective to the debate - what if the term "loss" wasn't referring to loss of life, but a different (and still very painful) type of loss. With IVF, there are hopes and dreams that you have for the little one(s) you hope will implant and grow. When a BFN happens, those dreams and hopes are shattered or "lost." Maybe they're referring to the emotional loss rather than a loss of life. Just a thought...

crystalknpp · December 2011

Maybe I'm extra sensitive to this topic because I'm currently in the middle of my 2nd IVF cycle but to me IVF is very different from my experience with charting/opk's/BDing every month and getting a BFN. With IVF you know that there is a little embryo or two inside of you thats a part of you and DH. Also most people turn to IVF because they have been TTC for an extended period of time or its one of their only options, so all of their hopes and dreams are wrapped up in whether or not they get a BFP or BFN. I totally agree with Lavril's idea of loss when it comes to IVF. Its such an emotionally, physically and financially draining process that a BFN is completely devastating. I just think it's a different type of loss.

This topic is very controversial though because everyone is going to have very different opinions and beliefs. So I really don't think there is a "right" answer.

firefightersgal · December 2011

I can't say exactly how I would feel, as we haven't (and won't do) done IVF. However, I think that knowing there are embryos growing would make me feel a loss of life if I got a BFN.

butterfly843 · December 2011

For me it was tougher to get a bfn after an IVF cycle. We were trying for many years before doing our first IVF and I thought we would finally get our bfp, when we got a bfn it was a loss of so many hopes and dreams for me. A different type of loss, but definitely a loss.

CashewsMommy · December 2011

lavril:
To add a different perspective to the debate - what if the term "loss" wasn't referring to loss of life, but a different (and still very painful) type of loss. With IVF, there are hopes and dreams that you have for the little one(s) you hope will implant and grow. When a BFN happens, those dreams and hopes are shattered or "lost." Maybe they're referring to the emotional loss rather than a loss of life. Just a thought...

I am thinking it as this way. A loss of hopes and dreams, which I think we all get when AF shows, but it worse during an IVF cycle. I don't think I could ever do IVF because in my head it has to work. But knowing women IRL and on this board, I know that it's not true and I honestly don't think I could handle a BFN after IVF.

MandaS08 · December 2011

crystalknpp:

Maybe I'm extra sensitive to this topic because I'm currently in the middle of my 2nd IVF cycle but to me IVF is very different from my experience with charting/opk's/BDing every month and getting a BFN. With IVF you know that there is a little embryo or two inside of you thats a part of you and DH. Also most people turn to IVF because they have been TTC for an extended period of time or its one of their only options, so all of their hopes and dreams are wrapped up in whether or not they get a BFP or BFN. I totally agree with Lavril's idea of loss when it comes to IVF. Its such an emotionally, physically and financially draining process that a BFN is completely devastating. I just think it's a different type of loss.

This topic is very controversial though because everyone is going to have very different opinions and beliefs. So I really don't think there is a "right" answer.

I agree with Crystal. Before they transfer the embryo's you can see them and know they are in there. With a natural cycle you are hoping to have embryo's grow, but with IVF you know for sure they are there.

mork · December 2011

Thanks for the input ladies. I think the comments you made gave me a different perspective, one that I get. I do agree with loss of hopes and dreams, as well as knowing for sure that there are embryos there. That makes sense to me. I just hadn't thought about this before. Thanks for reading my ramblings and helping me digest. Smile

lavril · December 2011

Thanks for starting a thought provoking discussion!

ETA: I just noticed we're cycle buddies Cool

yuengling58 · December 2011

lavril:

Thanks for starting a thought provoking discussion!

ETA: I just noticed we're cycle buddies [H]

Me too!

lavril · December 2011

yuengling58:
lavril:

Thanks for starting a thought provoking discussion!

ETA: I just noticed we're cycle buddies [H]

Me too!

Awesome! When are you planning to start testing?

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