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Parenting
shopgirl78
member
school help--when your kid doesn't act better at school? LONG.
shopgirl78
member
in Parenting
DS1, 4 & in PreK3, has been having trouble at school since day 1; the first few weeks were hard. Then it got better for a while. Until his teacher had to be out for a week, then it got rough again. Then it got better (we tried a postive behavior chart) and then $hit hit the fan again today.
I have twice had to go to the school (today included) and once had to pick him up from daycare (its starting to carry over there). DS1 threw a fit when he was asked to do something he didn't want to (put his water bottle away). Teacher insisted, DS refused and it progressed to the point he threw and broke the water bottle. (I don't know WTF it mattered that the water bottle was out, but he needs to do what she says). He also threw rocks at the playground and was told not to and redirected several times and finally he refused to get on the bus to the afterschool program which is what I picked him up. It was just a really bad day though the teacher said he had periods of really good behavior too.
The first time I had to pick him up was when he got wet running through a puddle after being asked not to and he was mad his clothes were wet (duh!). The teacher didn't have an aide...therefore he couldn't be changed quicky enough and he threw a fit (which included him throwing his clothes).
(MH also throws little fits when stuff doesn't go his way--not throwing things but way overacts!)
Generally, when DS1 gets in trouble its for telling the teacher no (mostly during a transition). At daycare, it was running away. I used to have this issue a lot when he was a toddler but it has since haulted at home.
The teacher and I have met more times than I can count and I have given her all of my ideas to help him in school (and these come from years working in behavioral supports in group homes and as a substitute- even in a BDC (behavior development) and I have taken behavior development classes in college and worked with behavioralist for the last 7 years. I have advocated for more aides because the 2 prek3 classrooms share an aide (which I think they should have their own!) I do plan to consult them (behavioral specialist) on my 4 year old to see if he needs to be evaluated (it can be done where I work).
I am at a loss on what to do for my son. If he starts giving me that attitude, he goes to his room at home. He usually calms down pretty quickly. It doesn't appear to happen as often at home and certainly not to the point of him throwing things. The VP said the teacher can start sending him to her office. I don't have half the issues with him at home that they do a school. But then again, we are not as structured. Maybe start giving him chores, more responsibility? I think he'd do better with a male teacher? (Not available). Or with a different type of school setting? We don't have all those fancy school here: Goddard, Montessori (but it does sound he would fit better there). Should I take him out of school? He doesn't want that. But try again for Prek4. He has been in daycare since he was an infant and up to the last few months (he was the "best afterschool boy!"). He got a new teacher at daycare and started acting up there. I have talked and talked and talked and we read his notes , talk about what we can do better, go over the school schedule. I have talked about how it makes me feel when he gets in trouble...I just dont know what to do...what else can I do? Help me. I was to the point of tears today because I am just at a loss.
He is the middle child and I have made attempts to spend more one on one time with him. Recently, I took him to Wal-Mart alone, MH has taken him out alone to Lowe's and other boyish activities. Both MH and I work FT; DH works much more hours. Its just hard to do more one-on one things because you don't want to leave any kid out of anything fun.
Sorry if this is all mixed up...
eta: he is the oldest in the class 9/21 with a 9/2 cut off and he is academically (as it gets in PreK3) on target ...the assessments he was above avg but behavior
This discussion has been closed.
Re: school help--when your kid doesn't act better at school? LONG.
This must be incredibly frustrating for you
It seems like you and his teachers have done many different things with very little change, and no long-term changes. Perhaps at this point you may need to consider that he's not just "being naughty", and that there may be something else going on. Has he been evaluated for a behavioral or some type of sensory disorder? At 4, it's expected that kids will have bad days occasionally and that transitions are harder for some than others. But, it seems like he's not progressing and his bad days are pretty bad and more extreme than one would expect of a typical 4 year old. I'm coming at this with experience from both being a parent of children that age and as an early childhood development teacher. Whatever it is, just know that you are a great mom and you're already helping him by simply being involved and not giving up. Best of luck!
I've read the DSM for ADHD, ODD, ICD (impluse control), sensory (though not in DSM4 but researched) and intermittent explosive disorder.
ODD has been in the back of my head--it most fits but there are two criteria that are questionable:
In order to be diagnosed with ODD it has to be persistant for 6 months. This was brought about with the enterance of school--4 months ago. Also, ODD requires issues at home and at school and while I wouldn't say he is issue free at home--its not nearly as bad as what the school is saying. I kinda want to see if it carries onto another classroom before evaluating him or is it this particular one--his teacher is awesome in my book but maybe not for him. He was in daycare prior to this and never had the issues prior.
He doesn't fit ADHD criteria- like at all.
I don't note any particular sensory issues...
I've read the DSM for ADHD, ODD, ICD (impluse control), sensory (though not in DSM4 but researched) and intermittent explosive disorder.
ODD has been in the back of my head--it most fits but there are two criteria that are questionable:
In order to be diagnosed with ODD it has to be persistant for 6 months. This was brought about with the enterance of school--4 months ago. Also, ODD requires issues at home and at school and while I wouldn't say he is issue free at home--its not nearly as bad as what the school is saying. I kinda want to see if it carries onto another classroom before evaluating him or is it this particular one--his teacher is awesome in my book but maybe not for him. He was in daycare prior to this and never had the issues prior.
He doesn't fit ADHD criteria- like at all.
I don't note any particular sensory issues...
If he does not have these issues at home and while you claim you are not structured as much as school from what you've posted you have clear boundaries for him and seem to know your stuff when it comes to having expectations for him I would be hesitant to see the need for an evaluation.
You also say that he has not exhibited these behaviors in previous daycare settings, although he is at the age for some of these things to really start rearing their ugly head.
Honestly, it sounds to me that it simply is not a good match when it comes to teacher/student. If she has engaged him in a power struggle and he is a strong willed kid the odds of the behavior becoming under control is slim to none while she is still engaging him. I have met many teachers that will escalate children because they should be listened to as the adult. Obviously, I think children should respect adults and follow directions but it is a two way street.
I guess I completely understand your hesitancy to seek an evaluation. Would it be possible to put him in a different section and see if the problems continue there?
This is what I'm thinking too. If these are issues that only apply in this setting, maybe it isn't the right setting for him. I don't understand why an early childhood educator would engage in power struggles.
TOTALLY agree with DM here! Why is she getting him to the point of "freak out" over a WATER BOTTLE?! I get that he needs to listen. Of course he does. But actually engaging that behavior?! I don't know.
At any rate, and this sounds SO simple, but has she tried forewarning him before transitions. Just a "Hey, in 2 minutes, we are going to go to XYZ!"
I don't know about holding off on an evaluation only because I can't imagine dealing with this (for any of you - you, your son, the teacher) for another 6-7 months.
(((HUGS)))
I was just about to come on here and say the same thing as the two pp and ready to get flamed for it. Is the teacher part of the problem as much as (or more than) part of the solution?
I know N. He's a really great kid. DH and I were actually talking about him (and all of you) after Friday night and he was saying how well behaved N was. (We were talking about how you were taking all three on the plane by yourself and DH was saying how you probably would do fine since H was old enough to almost take care of herself and N was really well behaved.) He listened fine to me (who he only sees a few times a year) and DH when we were around and seemed to have a blast on the train. I know it was only a few hours, but I've known you guys for a while and I've never seen anything that I would say is uncharacteristic of a 4-year-old boy. He's sweet, stubborn, rambunctious and adorable. There are a few boys in DD2's class this year that would knock that teacher's socks off if she thinks N is a "problem kid".
That said, I think it needs to be addressed with the teacher. What exactly is happening. Is it:
"Ok everyone, put your water bottles away."
"N PUT YOUR WATER BOTTLE AWAY."
"N, why aren't you putting your water bottle away? I asked you to five minutes ago."
etc. Is it a Catch 22 - she expects bad behavior of him so he does it?
Or is it:
"Ok everyone, put your water bottles away."
"N, sweetie, could you please put your water bottle up so we can go outside?"
I understand she's getting frustrated and N is feeding off that frustration and it sounds like it's snowballing, but he's 4 and she's the adult. Knowing N, I can't imagine it's that hard to diffuse the situation like you do at home - "Ok, N. If you don't want to put your water bottle up, you're going to have to sit here and wait while we go play over there." or "Don't you want to go outside?" (And yes, I think it's silly to "fight" with a 4-year-old over a water bottle, but I agree that he needs to listen to the teacher no matter how silly the request.)
It's unusual (from what I understand) for kids to have trouble at school but not at home. Kids usually act out more at home because they feel more secure. I know DD#2 is my handful and she's been a mess at home lately - seriously want to scream and lose my mind - but her teachers tell me she's a perfect angel at school (minus the one day she got on Yellow for talking). No hitting, biting, yelling, taking toys, pushing people down, being mean on purpose, etc. that we see at home.
At the end of the day, though, this is his teacher. Either, you can meet with the teacher (and maybe director) and talk about how they are handling his defiance and give suggestions. I think it's been suggested before but have you gone in and observed his class? Does the teacher have other behavior problems? Is she giving him warnings or countdowns? I know DD#2 had a meltdown last year every time they changed activities. Once her teachers figured out to say "C, in 5 minutes, we're going outside." "Ok, C, two more minutes." She needed warnings and to ease into transitions. You can't just spring things on her. This year's teacher is great about giving those warnings and I was sure to explain it at the beginning of the year.
Otherwise, I think you need to pull him out of that class and just figure the teacher isn't a good fit for N. I'm not saying she's not a good teacher or a sweet person, but she may not be good for N.
I've never understood it either, but I've seen it happen many times. Some adults are "old school". Listen to me because I said so and you will do what I say right now...it's unfortunately all too common.
I don't get it. What's the alternative?
"Children, it's time to put away our things so we can go outside. N, can you put away your bottle too please? Oh, you don't want to put it away? Alright, you don't have to."
Maybe I'm just old school.
I have gone and visited the classroom (twice in November) and MH is going on Thursday. Both times he was A-Ok but also just excited I was there. I didn't notice anything but that one of his little friends in the afterschool program was getting in similar trouble as him. It seemed handled okay (safe spot) though it was questionable as to why he got in trouble--not standing in line properly, i guess.
The teacher says he does this no matter how she talks to him nicely or in her mean teacher voice.
The VP had a video of him on her ipad telling her no when she asked him all sorts of questions but that was right after he was all worked up. He calmed down. Maybe we can see if sending him to her office (as she suggested) will keep him from escalating. There is nothing to do in there but sit in chair. She thinks he will get bored and want to go back to class and be good.
She's not an older teacher; she's younger and its her 6th year. She has no kids of her own but compares DS to her nephew that receives some sort of mental health services...
There are only 2 PreK3 teachers. The other works particularly with those on IEPs--so not an option to change.
I have suggested the count down, obtained the class schedule to review, discussed age appropriate expectations, extra responsibilties, seriously we have meet 4-5x at least....
Seriously, I trust him so much to walk beside me that I dont always hold his hand. He does sometimes react to and with other kids bad behavior... At this age, he will give me less trouble sitting on the airplane than DD did-knock on wood (and she is my EASY kid). As Cairrai said I will fly alone with all 3 kids this weekend. I am generally out with all three alone. He's not a tornado kid that always spinning by far...
Children need to be able to follow directions. If you look in my previous post that is necessary, but there becomes a point when you enter a power struggle and the mentality of the adult should not become "to win" and MAKE the child listen to them.
Some adults do not understand that children deserve respect as well.
100% this. You do not engage in power struggles with a kid, it will not end well and any decent educator should know this. It sounds like this is not the right environment for your son. He may not be able to put into words why he doesn't like the school that he's in but it sounds like he is really unhappy there.
One thing that jumped out at me in your OP was that he wasn't allowed to change his own clothes. I'd think that a 4 year old should be allowed to change his own clothes and not have to wait for someone to help him, in a way this is an example of his power being taken away from him. It really is too bad that there isn't a Montessori school in your area, I agree that he sounds like he'd thrive in that environment.
I miss you lite-brite!