DS and school update - no improvements

ali-1411 · December 2011

His progress report yesterday was 4 Bs and a failing grade in Reading. Two months ago, he had all As.

Here's the teachers response:

From what I can tell Jakob is trying harder but still rushes through work and turns in things that are not his best because he wants to be finished. I have been working with him on what is good work and what is not. He has redone many assignments for me in class, but certain things like district tests and reading logs he cannot do again. We will have more reading grades this six weeks that should bring it up some, but I do feel like overall Jakob's work continues to be sloppy even after being told to fix it. I am not sure how else to communicate to him how important it truly is to take his time and get the work done neatly. When I talk to the counselor about meeting with him maybe I can ask her for strategies for him to remind himself about that.

It would be so easy to write it off as ADD and put him on meds. But we tried that! It didn't work! They made him worse, there's no way we could send him to school in that condition. And he IS capable of doing better work. I've seen him do it. We had him write an essay last weekend and it was perfect, good handwriting, complete thoughts.

His behavior in school hasn't improved, either. Its all chatting and goofing off. Being a constant distraction.

We've tried bribing him. Didn't work. We've tried punishments, in the last month he's lost pretty much every privilege. Now its causing friction between DH and I because he thinks the kid should just have to sit in his room all day, every day. Because that will show him! I just think that's ignoring him and the problem and that the isolation will make him spaz out in school even more.

The teacher is saying she'll talk to the counselor, so we'll see.

What else can we do?

angelaggie · December 2011

I asked my brother about this, because he was Jacob. Did this from 3rd grade through high school. He said not much worked. His desk was always in a corner, even at age 17. He said one thing that helped though was if he turned in good work the teacher would let him read his Goosebumps books. He loves to read and those books had him hooked. He wouldn't bother anyone just read. The problem was then getting him to stop reading during other parts of class. My mother said homework was a daily battle with him for nearly 10 years. He's very smart just little motivation. He was automatically accepted to college based on his near perfect SAT grade. Failed out first year. He was just not school material. He's a fireman now and it's perfect for him. I know not much help, but you're not alone.

angelaggie · December 2011

He also said that in high school he got a little better because my parents forced him to take AP classes and the work took longer.

ali-1411 · December 2011

angelaggie:
I asked my brother about this, because he was Jacob. Did this from 3rd grade through high school. He said not much worked. His desk was always in a corner, even at age 17. He said one thing that helped though was if he turned in good work the teacher would let him read his Goosebumps books. He loves to read and those books had him hooked. He wouldn't bother anyone just read. The problem was then getting him to stop reading during other parts of class. My mother said homework was a daily battle with him for nearly 10 years. He's very smart just little motivation. He was automatically accepted to college based on his near perfect SAT grade. Failed out first year. He was just not school material. He's a fireman now and it's perfect for him. I know not much help, but you're not alone.

Thank you for that Most people I know IRL haven't dealt with this, so I get a blank stare when I try to vent or ask advice.

rssnlvr · December 2011

Have you considered switching schools? Grasping at straws here, but maybe public schools aren't the best fit for him. An all boys' school maybe?

kiarox2002 · December 2011

So he can do the work, he just wants to rush to get done early?

Do they have a content mastery room? (Not sure what it would be called in your district. Basically where kids can be sent for extra help? I used to have kids who needed their tests read to the them and they would go to CM for that.) Not because he needs extra help, but because it might be quieter?

Can he have a desk in the hall? In another teacher's classroom that has an off period? Can you try one of those desks with walls on 3 sides? We used to have them in the ISS room. Any of these things might cut down on distractions.

Have you asked Jakob for his opinion? What does he think would help? Does he even see this as a problem?

Has he been tested/ do you see any evidence that he has a learning disability? Same question for giftedness. Is he being asked to do work that he already knows how to do? If you already know how to multiply, it's pretty annoying to be asked to practice addition.

Could they give him a pretest before starting a new unit? If he passes then he can choose to do an enrichment activity instead?

Barring all of this, I would try to find a way to make it unpleasant for him to finish early. (I don't know if I would have done this as a teacher, but I would suggest it if I was the parent.) Such as, when he finishes his math he has to do 12 more worksheets doing the same thing. Or he has to write his spelling words 50 times once he finished his reading assignment. Or he has to practice his handwriting. Basically here's how I would do it. It comes time for independent practice. All of the kids have to do a math worksheet. Jakob brings up his finished worksheet and is given another. Finishes that one and is given another. Wash, rinse repeat.

I so feel your pain. My brother has decided to mentally check out of school his senior year and now we're all afraid that he won't even graduate.

ali-1411 · December 2011

rssnlvr:
Have you considered switching schools? Grasping at straws here, but maybe public schools aren't the best fit for him. An all boys' school maybe?

I've thought about it. There's a montessori school here that really makes me wonder. We couldn't afford it now. If I went back to work full-time, maybe.

ali-1411 · December 2011

kiarox2002:
So he can do the work, he just wants to rush to get done early?
Do they have a content mastery room? (Not sure what it would be called in your district. Basically where kids can be sent for extra help? I used to have kids who needed their tests read to the them and they would go to CM for that.) Not because he needs extra help, but because it might be quieter?
I have no idea what they have. I've had the hardest time getting help from this school. Its an Recognized rated school but apparently that's just about test scores. Jakob seems to fall through the cracks here...he's not "bad" enough to get into the programs, whatever they are.
Can he have a desk in the hall? In another teacher's classroom that has an off period? Can you try one of those desks with walls on 3 sides? We used to have them in the ISS room. Any of these things might cut down on distractions.
The VP and teacher asked him last month what he thought they should do. He suggested having his own desk so he wouldn't be distracted. They did.
Have you asked Jakob for his opinion? What does he think would help? Does he even see this as a problem?
He doesn't like to talk about it. He shuts down and just says, "I don't know" or he'll start crying and say that he's trying so hard but it doesn't matter.
Has he been tested/ do you see any evidence that he has a learning disability? Same question for giftedness. Is he being asked to do work that he already knows how to do? If you already know how to multiply, it's pretty annoying to be asked to practice addition.
He's never been tested for a learning disability because his grades have always been As and Bs. This is the first time his grades have slipped. I haven't tested him for giftedness, either. He's smart but not genius level. He understands things quickly but he still needs it to be explained, you know?
Could they give him a pretest before starting a new unit? If he passes then he can choose to do an enrichment activity instead?
I don't know. Would they do that? I will bring that up.
Barring all of this, I would try to find a way to make it unpleasant for him to finish early. (I don't know if I would have done this as a teacher, but I would suggest it if I was the parent.) Such as, when he finishes his math he has to do 12 more worksheets doing the same thing. Or he has to write his spelling words 50 times once he finished his reading assignment. Or he has to practice his handwriting. Basically here's how I would do it. It comes time for independent practice. All of the kids have to do a math worksheet. Jakob brings up his finished worksheet and is given another. Finishes that one and is given another. Wash, rinse repeat.
I suggested this last month. I suggested giving him extra work just as busy work, it doesn't need to be graded. Teacher wasn't very responsive to that idea. I don't know how much power I have here. I feel like this is a constant battle against the teachers and it shouldn't be that way.
I so feel your pain. My brother has decided to mentally check out of school his senior year and now we're all afraid that he won't even graduate.

A&Jmom · December 2011

kiarox2002:
So he can do the work, he just wants to rush to get done early?
Do they have a content mastery room? (Not sure what it would be called in your district. Basically where kids can be sent for extra help? I used to have kids who needed their tests read to the them and they would go to CM for that.) Not because he needs extra help, but because it might be quieter?
Can he have a desk in the hall? In another teacher's classroom that has an off period? Can you try one of those desks with walls on 3 sides? We used to have them in the ISS room. Any of these things might cut down on distractions.
Have you asked Jakob for his opinion? What does he think would help? Does he even see this as a problem?
Has he been tested/ do you see any evidence that he has a learning disability? Same question for giftedness. Is he being asked to do work that he already knows how to do? If you already know how to multiply, it's pretty annoying to be asked to practice addition.
Could they give him a pretest before starting a new unit? If he passes then he can choose to do an enrichment activity instead?
Barring all of this, I would try to find a way to make it unpleasant for him to finish early. (I don't know if I would have done this as a teacher, but I would suggest it if I was the parent.) Such as, when he finishes his math he has to do 12 more worksheets doing the same thing. Or he has to write his spelling words 50 times once he finished his reading assignment. Or he has to practice his handwriting. Basically here's how I would do it. It comes time for independent practice. All of the kids have to do a math worksheet. Jakob brings up his finished worksheet and is given another. Finishes that one and is given another. Wash, rinse repeat.
I so feel your pain. My brother has decided to mentally check out of school his senior year and now we're all afraid that he won't even graduate.

These are some of the same things I was going to ask. I think you've said in the past a lot of it has to do with boredom, right? If so I would work with the teacher on ways to combat his boredom. If he already knows the assignment and that is why he is rushing through it, then she should give him enrichment assignments. If it is something that he has to think about he shouldn't be able to rush through it.

Also, I know you said you have bribed him at home, but has the teacher tried it as well. If he does his best work the 1st time then he gets to do something he likes while the rest of the class finishes up. (only if it is his best work though). Like computer time or something?

kiarox2002 · December 2011

ali-1411:
kiarox2002:
Could they give him a pretest before starting a new unit? If he passes then he can choose to do an enrichment activity instead?
I don't know. Would they do that? I will bring that up.

The teacher might not want to because it's a lot more work for her, but I think it might help in this case. When I did my gifted training, this was one of the suggestions we were given. If all of the gifted kids are lumped into the same class, their teacher might already be doing this.

ali-1411:
kiarox2002:

Barring all of this, I would try to find a way to make it unpleasant for him to finish early. (I don't know if I would have done this as a teacher, but I would suggest it if I was the parent.) Such as, when he finishes his math he has to do 12 more worksheets doing the same thing. Or he has to write his spelling words 50 times once he finished his reading assignment. Or he has to practice his handwriting. Basically here's how I would do it. It comes time for independent practice. All of the kids have to do a math worksheet. Jakob brings up his finished worksheet and is given another. Finishes that one and is given another. Wash, rinse repeat.
I suggested this last month. I suggested giving him extra work just as busy work, it doesn't need to be graded. Teacher wasn't very responsive to that idea. I don't know how much power I have here. I feel like this is a constant battle against the teachers and it shouldn't be that way.

I would suggest this again because it seems like it might be the most effective for Jakob given what you posted in the past. Of course the teacher has to do more work which might be one of the reasons she is hesitating. For it to work though, she really needs to give him each worksheet as he finished the previous one. Just giving him a giant stack is not going to have the same impact.

You could volunteer to make them yourself. Hell, I'll make you some if you want. Or you could go to the teacher supply store and buy a book full of worksheets.

If the school continues to be difficult to work with, you could try to have Jakob classified as ADD under a 504 plan. (I think ADD is a qualifying condition, but I can't remember...) He *does not* have to be medicated to be on a 504 plan. I have a lot more experience with Special Education than with 504, but if you want to go that route we can chat more. Basically, if you got him put on a 504, the school would be legally required to implement the plan that you agreed upon.

Also, I know that you guys tried meds in the past, but you might want to give them another chance. Perhaps a different medication would work better? If you aren't feeling that though, that's cool too. The school should still be working with you. I'm annoyed and irritated on your behalf that they aren't. What have they suggested?

ec3under4 · December 2011

I am not saying that he has a learning disability by any means because, obviously he would need to be evaluated by a team of professionals. But, I will say that that's the tricky thing about learning disabilities, they can occur in even gifted children.

People assume that you have to have a low IQ but that's not the case. A learning disability occurs when their is a severe discrepency between intellectual intelligence and achievement. Therefore, if a child has a high IQ but is performing poorly in school with grades that reflect that then it could be a learning disability.

Like you said, gifted children or even children who are of average intelligence often go unnoticed or many times it is said that they are "lazy" or "lack internal motivation". Many times schools will not offer to test them because they are just genuinely uneducated or the special ed team might not even know about them.

I am not at all saying that this is what he has but I encourage you to explore your options because, sometimes, it is truly a disability that just requires a little extra special attention. If he were to qualify as learning disabled, it isn't a rode to failure. It's quite the opposite. It's identifying where he needs help and how he can get to that potential. The public schools is a hard system to fight and sometimes it's best to seek outside help/testing.

I have a random wealth of knowledge about this from teaching and my mom is also a professor in special ed. If you ever have any questions, you are always welcome to ask.

Temp13436125005166 · December 2011

I'm so sorry Ali, this sounds really hard, especially since you're not getting a lot of help from the teacher/school either!

He doesn't like to talk about it. He shuts down and just says, "I don't know" or he'll start crying and say that he's trying so hard but it doesn't matter.

This quote made me so sad :-( Poor Jakob. Maybe try helping him on this end. If he feels like he can't do it, then he's mentally going to have trouble doing it. Like since he thinks he can't do the work well, why spend a lot of time on it because he's just going to do poorly anyway. I'm thinking maybe his teacher (and you?) can start acknowledging little things that he spends more time on, like if he got one section right and spend time to do good work there. At home you can acknowledge his B's and that those areas are going well. And start to build up his confidence that he can do good work!

good luck and I hope you guys figure something out!

carlinlp · December 2011

You pretty much described my oldest. He's 14 and about to enter high school and we have yet to find the answers. He's bored and he rushes through. He finishes his work at least 15minutes ahead of his peers. AP classes have been a god send this year. Requiring more out of him has been really effective. He fought us on the classes and his elective but I pushed hard and won. He does admit he's happier. But his regular classes are still tough. DH just had another meeting at the school this morning actually. We never tried meds and he doesn't fit a ADD diagnosis, he never has, but we had one teacher try to force it on us years ago. I will say that when we fixed his diet, he calmed down in class A LOT. Have you considered changing his diet? The added hormones were killing us with daily behavior issues. We started him on a teen specific vitamin for boys and fixed his diet. We rarely ever have behavior reports as a result. I can look at him and tell if he's forgotten to take them. His remaining issues are rushing just to get it done and refusing to do something more than once. I wish I had a good answer for that.

ali-1411 · December 2011

Ok the quotes are getting out of hand

kiarox - I need to email the teacher back, I'm going to include the extra work suggestion and/or enrichment exercises. You can see her email in my original post. She has no suggestions. I asked her last week if the counselor could help, she says she will ask.

How do we get him classified under a 504 plan? Who makes the plan? Who does the testing to see if he has a learning disability?

I really don't think he's ADHD. He's impulsive and lacks self control but he has the ability to focus and concentrate.

ec3under4 - I'm not ruling out learning disability, I'm just not sure that it fits since his grades are usually good. I know that learning disability isn't connected to intelligence but isn't it connected to achievements? I'm thinking this is a motivation problem. Is there a learning disability for that?

M&R - I know, I feel so bad for him sometimes. We keep laying on the disappointment and punishments for this and its just breaking him. But then DH thinks we need to be harder on him, and that its my fault because I let him do whatever we wants. We got a lot going on here.

carlinlp - I saw you mention before a teen specific vitamin, I really need to look into that. We've made huge changes in his diet over the years, not nearly as far as you guys have gone though. His behavior has gotten a lot better in the last year but whether that's connected to diet or just that he's getting older, I don't know. I hate saying that he has bad behavior because he never actually DOES anything wrong. Its always his mouth that gets him into trouble. Just constant talking, chit chatting about whatever comes into his mind. He has so many ideas and I love that about him but its exhausting at the same time.

kiarox2002 · December 2011

What if he had a journal to write down his ideas? Then he could save them up and, I don't know, share with the class before lunch?

Im on my phone right now, but I'll try to find some of the 504 info during Kate's nap.

kiarox2002 · December 2011

I would email both his teacher and the counselor and tell them that you want more information about putting Jakob on a 504 plan for his ADD. The counselor should be able to give you all of the paperwork you need. I'm much more familiar with the process to qualify for Sped services, but I'm pretty sure that the counselor will give you, Jakob's dr, and his teacher a survey to fill out. I'm not sure what else happens at the 504 level, maybe you have to bring in a diagnosis from his dr? That should be easy since you guys tried meds, right? If he qualifies, you will have an annual 504 meeting with the counselor and his teacher where you discuss his progress and what modifications/ accommodations are appropriate at this time.

If you want him tested for a learning disability, you can request a sped referral. Normally, I would suggest talking to his teacher about if she suspects one, but she seems kind of like she's checked out. From start to finish, a sped evaluation takes about 1 year. A few things to keep in mind, for sped purposes, a LD means that there is a discrepancy between a student's ability and their achievement because of the LD. I forget the amount that it has to be, but I can look it up if you want. Some kids can be 2E (both gifted and LD) so the LD is never diagnosed. You should think about what accommodations/ modifications you would want made for him.

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