At my wits end, need advice
butterflygrooves
member
Hi ladies, we are getting close to finalizing Iz's adoption (Nov 18th)! This isn't about finalizing though, I need some advice...
Iz has been with us for 6 1/2 months now and we've made a lot of progress with her eating issues, showing feelings, and other behaviors but the one behavior that drives me insane has kept up... Her lying hasn't lessened at all and sometimes seems like it's gotten worse, I'm to the point where I don't believe anything she says. I am at my wits end with the lying and don't know what to do anymore.
I've explained to her that lying is unacceptable and that she will always have a consequence for lying; being sensitive and telling her that she doesn't need to lie with us, timeouts, loss of toys, loss of privileges, explainations of why we don't lie, etc, have not worked at all. We've talked about the importance of being honest and given examples of being honest vs. lying, we've also talked about how she would feel if we lied to her...the lying still persists. We are consistent with discipline and reminding her that lying is not ok so I'm not sure where we are going wrong.
I know it takes time but this is the one thing that has not improved at all, leaving me to hurt for her and feel like I am failing to guide her in the right direction. Give me a new perspective (I try to see things through her eyes before I correct so I can understand her perspective) or some new ideas; something, anything?!?!
This may be totally unrelated but we are having her tested for ADD because she has shown a lot of signs of it, could that be a part of her lying?
Re: At my wits end, need advice
She is 4 and she lies about anything and everything.
Example: This morning she ate breakfast (Cheerios with milk, something she eats a few times a week) then went in the bathroom to get her toothbrush for my wife to put toothpaste on, while she was in the bathroom she started pouting to make us think she was crying. Both my DW and I rushed to the bathroom door thinking that she had hurt herself, when my DW asked why she was crying she said because she didn't like her breakfast, she hadn't complained while she was eating, nor had she made any faces about what she was eating so DW thought she meant she hadn't eaten enough and gave her a banana. Later, I asked her what she didn't like about her breakfast and she told me that she didn't like cow's milk, something she drinks every day. I asked if she had enough to eat before DW gave her the banana and she said yes but she didn't want cow's milk anymore. She asked for milk with dinner tonight and I reminded her that she didn't like it and she said that she does like it and that she had lied earlier. I asked what she lied about and she said she liked her breakfast and she likes milk but she cried because she didn't want to brush her teeth.
This kind of thing happens every day, small lies all the time and it's rare when she fesses up to them. She told the SW yesterday that she got stung on the shoulder by a bee and that I didn't do anything to help her...that was the first time I had heard about it, she has never been stung by a bee with us. Her SW has confronted her about lying in the past but it got to the point where she started shrugging it off because it wasn't getting any better.
Two Mommies Healing Hearts
It sounds like her lying is very attention-seeking. Have you tried ignoring it?
Also, I'd try to focus less on the "why?" and more on the "what now?" so she doesnt have as much of an opportunity to lie - and even if she does, it doesnt get her anything. For example using the bathroom/breakfast thing...I would have avoided asking "why are you sad?" and instead done something like, "Oh, your face seems like you might be sad. Sometimes when I'm sad I ask for a hug..."
And for the bee sting, I would ignore the questionable nature of wether or not it really happened and say something like, "oooh, bee stings can hurt! but they happen...what will you do next time you get stung by a bee?"
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I haven't adopted yet, but it sounds like what my DD has done with testing hypotheticals/boundaries, and is supposedly very common. It also may just be attention-seeking but I get the sense she is trying to feel secure and to do that, she needs to test you. My gut instinct is patience and consistency and it would resolve.
For example, I wonder if your DD was thinking "what would mommy do if I was crying in the bathroom alone?" "What if i didn't like milk, would she accomodate me? would the social worker do something if I told her mommy didn't help me after a bee sting? would mommy have helped me if i was stung?
I came here this morning considering writing a very similar message. M has entered a lying phase so bad, that now he's spinning 3 and 4 lies to manipulate us into not getting into trouble for things he's done.
For example, yesterday we were talking, and he "let it slip" that he punched a girl in school, "by accident." He started talking, and then stopped, saying, "Oh, no. I can't say, because if I do, you'll give me consequences." I asked him to continue, and he told me that he punched her "lightly" in the stomach, and three different stories of how it happened. He told met the principal said that if he hit someone again, he'd have to sit out recess. I told him I'd talk to the principal, because he shouldn't get in trouble for an accident. Then he asked me, "What will happen if they lie and tell you it wasn't an accident. Will you believe them or me?" I told him I'd have to believe them, because they never lied to me. I then asked him if it was likely they'd tell me a story different from his. He seemed sure they would. I asked him what I might hear, and he just said they might just say he hit her, and it wasn't an accident. He insisted it was an accident, and asked what would happen if the stories didn't match up.
I refused to tell him what the consequences might be. Mostly because I think he meant to tell me, and it never slipped out. I honestly believe that M wanted to tell me, so that he'd have a lesser punishment because he was being upfront about it. I also think he wanted me to tell him he wouldn't be consequenced because he told me the truth. I don't think he understood how it would play out, but hoped that by telling me about the incident, but not the circumstances, and suggesting there might be different stories, he'd get off for "being honest." He's so caught up in his defenses and own lies, he believes them.
I know this is a huge problem with traumatized kids, so I pulled out all the books last night, and read the parts the index said addressed the issue of lying.
The 6-12 chapter of Parenting Your Internationally Adopted Child: From Your First Hours Together Through the Teen Years was my biggest help. It explained that these kids often feel bad about their relinquishments and feel it was there fault. That translates into them thinking they are bad people. Then they do bad things because they feel bad, and lie to cover it up (for some, they lie itself is the "bad thing"). Since they are lying because they are "bad," they don't mind defending that lie to the absurd. They often are also emotionally delayed, and don't realize that other can evaluate what they say, so they expect you to believe whatever they say. When you show you don't trust them, they don't understand why and it reinforces that they are bad, and the cycle continues. The book basically says that rather than confronting them on the lies, it's more important to address the results (like in ct's examples) and to constantly discuss the child's history and why they have been separated from their biological family. It's essential to make the child understand it's not their fault and that it's not a reflection of what kind of person the child is. Only when the child understands that (s)he's not to blame, will their self-image improve and the lying ease. Also, by not always confronting the lies head-on, you are giving the child fewer chances to spin new lies.
Parenting the Child Who Hurts 2: The Next Steps gave really good insight into how a traumatized child sees the world and how that affects their self-image and behavior. I found it really eye-opening and pretty depressing, mostly because it didn't give a lot of helpful or direct advice on how to stop the lying. The thing I got most out of this book is a better understanding of why M must feel the way he always says: that he's a bad person. I now understand that he really means it, and isn't just looking for us to reassure him he's not. I understand some of the reasons that formed his belief, how deeply ingrained it is, and what perceptions we have to focus on changing to build him up.
Parenting the Hurt Child: Helping Adoptive Families Heal and Grow was less helpful in this area, because it dealt more with "automatic lying." That's when a kid will start lying/denying something before the questing is even finished, and then feels he has to defend his answer indefinitely, even when it gets absurd. The book gives some tips of how to address this kind of issue through diversion and changing the subject, and it might come in handy for some of the much smaller lies.
Oh, and so now I have a better understanding of why he has been lying so much--he's remembering much more about his biological family lately and we've been addressing it very directly in therapy and a little at home--but I still don't have a clue what to do about it. I know I can't call him out on all his lies. I know I have to work harder to address his past.
But I don't know how to handle situations like the current one. What, if anything, deserves a consequence? The punching? But he did tell me of his own volition, and the school is addressing that. The lying? But will that only reinforce his idea that we don't trust him and he is bad? Or will it just complicate things because he told half-truths, and so he doesn't know what, exactly, he's being consequenced for?
Perhaps I should make him try to make amends with the girl he punched. I know he doesn't like her, but he won't tell me why. Maybe I should make him do something nice for her, but what? I don't want him to resent her even further....
Hi butterfly! Have you looked at any of Christine Moers resources? Her blog--welcometomybrain has a lot of links and her own videos, especially if this is an attachment thing.
At four years old, the only other thing I can really think of is a visual reward system. So, for example, the two of you could do an art project making either a tree or a flower or something. Then each time she tells the truth about something, you add a petal or a leaf or something. Once it's all complete and "so beautiful!!" you can take her for a treat. Ice cream or small toy or whatever. I'd start by making the tree "complete" after only a day or two, then start stretching it out.
You could have her remove a petal or leaf when she doesn't tell the truth. The lesson is what beautiful things you can build by telling the truth.. and visa versa.
That's just a thought.
Thank you so much for this! I read her post from today and I think I need to take her lead with the therapeutic parenting, it sounds like something that might work for us.
Two Mommies Healing Hearts
Great idea! I was thinking about doing a sticker chart but this is so much more creative and has a better meaning behind it.
Two Mommies Healing Hearts
Two Mommies Healing Hearts