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susanmosley
member
s/o getting pregnant when you can't afford it
susanmosley
member
Not wanting to to pass up a chance to be judgy, I have two more questions (not pertaining to anything I have read here today -but definitely have in the past)
why do people purposefully have more kids when they aren't enjoying parenting the one(s) they have?
and
why do people purposefully get pregnant when their marriage isn't working out?
There was some worthwhile insight in Daisy's post that I enjoyed reading. Hoping someone can shed some light for me on these topics - I'm being serious. There has to be something I am missing. And again, I know I am being judgmental.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: s/o getting pregnant when you can't afford it
totally separate from your post- which sparked a thought-
it seems like children are obviously added stressors to a marriage/life (right?) ~ but in the past- # of children (in a family) were higher and divorce rate was lower.
Was it just society norm to have larger families? ~ and a faux pas to divorce?
DH's mother AND father are BOTH one of 12 kids each. - definitely no divorce in the past.
So what has changed?
Is it fair to say that in today's world- smaller families and higher divorce rates?
A misguided attempt to bring any kind of change? Thinking the new little bundle of joy will trump the current problems? I don't know, Sue. I took Marriage & Family classes in undergrad and I learned a lot of basics years before I got married or had a baby. I would like to think that these things are common sense and I would have known not to do these things anyway ... but, who knows what tools/ wrong beliefs people are operating with. I didn't read Daisy's post yet but I'm about to now ...
I can't really say for your first question. But my guess is maybe that they are just being dramatic about not liking having kids, and that deep down they are enjoying it.
As for the other question. I've known a couple of people who wanted to have kids in a bad relationship because they thought it would fix things, or keep a guy around. It's crazy thinking, I know. Anyone I've know who thought that way has been really young (like late teens early 20's). Not sure if that contributed to the rational or not.
Asking those sort of questions starts a real slippery slope. I mean if you want to go that route one might ask themselves -"Why did those people get married if they both wanted babies and couldn't afford them" and "Why get married at all if you have any sort of problems"
I get your point, but the real issue is people lack common sense in all aspects of their lives... most times...? Who knows.
building on my thought- I am not sure my DH's parents' families could 'afford' 12 kids each.
both were middle income working American families-
I mean- who the hell could drive 12 kids around (besides the duggars and jon&kate's kids)? - let alone feeding 12 kids. Yet- they did it. They were fed, clothed and educated. And their kids had kids ( A LOT less of them lol) ~ and so forth.
But today- surely an average middle earning income family couldn't 'support' 12 kids (right?) ... with electricity. ( I mean coupons and rolling CVS sales only go so far...)
Well, back in the day, you could afford a home and car and all the necessities one one income. That was the norm. Now it takes two incomes in many families to make ends meet. It is true that things are a lot more expensive (plus there are more "extras" now- but even that aside, inflation has gone up quite a bit since the days of 12 kids).
Also, I think it did have to do with social norms of having a big family and not divorcing. Another option is that some families really did do it to cover marital issues? My ILs had 6 kids and now that they are all adults, they literally bribe the unmarried ones to live at home with them. I really think they can't stand to be alone together but have covered it with 30 years of child-rearing. But I think people also may have tried harder back in the day (I am sure many women stayed in terrible relationships too, so there are some good situations as a result of divorce becoming a real option.)
My grandma had a bunch of kids that she didn't want. Back then you couldn't say no to your husband. My grandpa wanted them although he never did anything to help raise them. My grandpa also had a decade long affair, but my grandma didn't leave him when she found out. She couldn't. She had 6 young children born back to back when she found out about the affair and an 8th grade education. None of the kids grew up to be decent human beings and I really think it had a lot to do with the mother not wanting them and the father being a prick.
I think a lot of people think their partner will change when they have kids. Or they think then they will be forced to stick around. Maybe their clock is ticking and they are afraid they won't find another partner in time. I lurk TIP a lot and all of the time posters will come complaining about behaviors that existed before having children. They expect everything to change when they have kids.
MA- see- that is exactly what I was thinking.
I often think..... were they REAAAALLY that happy and so head over heels in love to procreate that many times- or did the 'norm' have a hand in it- or was it the cold Maine winters? ~ I dunno.
But I always think- were they really that in love/happy in their marriage ? I know my DH's mom (God rest her soul) contemplated divorce at once time when she was sick with breast cancer-
I know a lot of it has to do with societal norms- but 12 is A LOT of kids. And if I was the 'weirdo' in the past with only have a couple- I would be A- ok with that lol
So, your DH's parents were both one of 12? IDK, I see how it could work in that generation. I feel like previous generations would cover neccesities for more people instead of extras for fewer people. We are so materialistic. SO materialistic. I was talking to my aunt about stuffed animals. I had about 10 and I can still tell you all thier names. I still have about 8 of them in DD's nursery. My niece and nephew filled a TRASH BAG with EXTRA stuffed animals and still had all their "good" stuffed animals left.
If we decided, "okay, we are going to get serious about our garden/canning and I am going to sew our clothing and we are going to cut out cable (NOT ELECTRIC) and have one car ..." yup, we could have more kiddos than if we continue to live as we are. My MIL is one of 12 and that's how they lived. Also, as teenagers they would have part time jobs and part of the money would come back into the family. They paid for their own college educations. Contrast that with us saving for DD's college and having 120 channels and buying stuff that we don't need. Today, I bought a comemorative ornament for Baby's first Christmas. If I had a bunch of kids, that $ could buy food or items said kids needed.
yes- they were BOTH of one of 12 kids. ~ my DH's parents met picking potatoes during harvest- (isn't that how EVERY one meets their SO in Maine?) - they did all of their own gardening and canning and all that jazz you mentioned. DH has an ornament or two of his childhood- but nothing like I do (today) for my kids. Materialism (i think) has a big part to play- for sure. But then again- it didn't cost 51.00 for an aspirin if you needed to go to the ER either.....
interesting thoughts- for sure.
Wow, Kate- this is worthy of a new thread. I agree that we think we have more control than we really do when it comes to how our children will turn out.
This is exactly why my ex and I didn't have any more children (we had DD#1, got married a few years later). We were messy enough and DD picked up on that. Why make it worse?
ETA: I just reread that and wanted to clarify that DD was not the reason for our divorce, she was however, the reason we married. We divorced because I guess I married his mom as well, lol. Anyway, I knew that another child would not fix things or make him grow up. In fact, just the thought of being pg again (with him) terrified me to my very core and made me sad.
DD#1~8/17/96------DS~10/24/05
I think part of the change is the "selfish" mindset that most of us have. Myself included. When my grandparents or their parents had children they most likely weren't as concerned about being able to go on vacation X times a year, having the expensive wedding, cars, homes, ect. that everyone seems to need/think is important now.
One thing that I know that I am "selfish" in thinking when it comes to having children is that I want my kids to have their own rooms. My parents grew up with atleast 2 other siblings in their rooms. We like and want to be able to go on cruises or fly to visit family in Puerto Rico each summer. If we had many kids, we wouldn't be able to do that. I love my kids and would love to have 1 or 2 more but I could never picture myself with 10 or 15 because I can't imagine the way that our lives would have to change.
I think before it was more family oriented ( You have a family and you provided a living for it) and now it is more money oriented (You make a living and you create a family which allows you to maintain it).
ETA: I think that the divorce rate & unmarried parenting rate has a lot to do with the same reasoning. Before, you got married and you made it work regardless of how happy everyone in the marriage was and now, you get married knowing that if it doesn't make you happy, it doesn't have to work.
Our Family Blog Weightloss Blog
I took a history of childhood class in graduate school that answers a lot of questions about the decline in size of the American family, so figured I'd share. Oddly it doesn't relate directly to the original question, but the spin offs.
1) In an agricultural society children are a financial asset rather than being a financial drain. Free field hands, free help in the house, free labor. With the advent of industrialized work and labor unions protecting workers (and particularly children) from abusive conditions children were no longer an asset. It took some time for many people to reach the point where large families weren't the norm. The increased availability and legalization of birth control certainly helped (in the 70s it was illegal to instruct unmarried women on contraceptive options... women being able to take control over their own fertility is a huge step forward that most of us take for granted).
2) Through the 1980s as mothers returned to the workplace household incomes rose, but individual incomes stagnated. Cost of living rose with average HHI increases, but commodities like childcare also rose. I (and I'm sure many other on this board) can't afford to work. I have a college degree and graduate education (did not finish my graduate work) and can't find a job in NYC that will pay as much as daycare for one would cost me. In the end I'm far happier for being home, but it puts us in a much tighter position where 40 years ago my husband would be paid based on the assumption of supporting a household. Basically, the income to cost-of-living ratio became forever skewed.
3) As household incomes rose we became accustomed to more material things that now seem like necessities (and often are). For a while disposable incomes were very high, so people became accustomed to a disposable lifestyle. Something didn't hold up you replaced it. Manufacturers caught on and now many things are made more cheaply and people don't complain. We also expect a large, full closet where 40 years ago you had one week's worth of clothing.
As far as marriages with 12 children, I think people look for different things out of marriage than they used to. Abuse is no longer acceptable and people are admitting that emotional/mental abuse is as real and scarring as physical or sexual abuse. Women can command a living wage finally, so they are no longer trapped with no options if they leave an abusive spouse. People also look at a spouse as a life-long love when sometimes happy, stable marriages are partnerships and the romance fades and sometimes goes in and out in different places in your life. Many people I personally know divorced because the spark left, which is a perfectly valid thing today, but wouldn't have been acceptable 40 years ago. The notion that you only live once and should be happy is a very modern idea. I think many couples today don't work through the hard stuff together the way a couple would have in another time and place.
Sorry so long, but wanted to jump into the discussion with a few thoughts.
Brilliant.
awesomeness penquin- thanks for sharing that.
#1- was DEFINITELY true- esp in my DH's family
You're definitely onto something but I think you have it backwards. I think helicopter parents are the effect of having fewer children, not the cause.
50 years ago, couples had large families. With so many children, if disaster struck and one died than the parents still had 7 other kids to distract them and keep them going. But now, when you only have 1 or 2 kids. If one of them die, then essentially your whole world is gone.
Someone more eloquent needs to come along and rephrase this
More and better birth control is at least part of it.
My parents (members of the silent generation) were both one of two kids in their families. Their families were both somewhat poor. Not going hungry poor, but just barely scraping by. When my dad was a kid in school, he had three shirts, two pairs of pants, and one pair of shoes that may or many not have fit. My dad also shared a bedroom with his sister (two bedroom house). My mom grew up on a small farm that her parents rented; they grew a lot of their own food and traded eggs for haircuts by my mom's uncle. There's no way their families could have supported more kids.
Hey...I met my DH on a blind date!
But things are a lot different in the County...
I kid - the topics discussed here are certainly more intelligent than my original questions. Entertaining morning reading - thanks.
lol
as far as your original questions, i don't think you can nail down one or two answers that will apply to the entire groups as a whole.
for me, i love my kid. but omfg are 3 year olds trying. hoo boy. i love her more than i could imagine loving anyone, and she's really fun to hang out with, amazing to watch grow. but she's also a 3 year old, and they like to test boundaries and act like self centered jerks. :P i don't think that just because you don't 100% LOVE every stage of child raising that it doesn't mean you don't want that kid, or won't be good parent to a second child. and we wanted dd to have a sibling somewhat close in age - that's important to us.
1.) Maybe they think that they'll have a "do-over" with the second kid? Or that things will get better with the "ideal" household of two kids? Could be a case of "if I just wish hard enough that this will become true." Syndrome?
2.) Wish Hard Enough Syndrome is at work in that instance too. Babies fix everything don't you know?
People have kids for a lot of reasons. I think that a lot of people have children to purposefully re-create some positive memories from their own childhoods.
As for getting pregnant when you aren't in a relationship or your relationship isn't going well, I think there can be a lot of good reasons to do this (as well as a lot of poor ones). I don't think that one necessarily has to be married and that marriage has to be going well in order to raise a child. There are a lot of reasons to have children that have nothing to do with the relationship you have with the other parent.
Agreed. I am a-ok with people having babies out of wedlock. I'm great with women having kids without spouses or significant others. I'm great with same sex couples having kids how ever they want to go about doing that.
I was referring to the people who are in conventional relationships with a child or two, where things are falling apart, yet they decide to have another baby. I think most people in a marriage with kids aren't wanting for it to fall apart, NOR or they wanting to raise more kids not in that marriage (at least at the time that they are in a bad relationship). I think others are right in that people think that a new addition will make it all right again.
Again, I can't agree with you more that a marriage isn't needed to raise a child. BUT I think a rocky marriage makes raising a child pretty crappy...but these are just my thoughts.