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Daisy77
member
DD#1~8/17/96------DS~10/24/05
S/O barely making it, I have to ask....
Daisy77
member
If you are barely making it financially and yet are pregnant....why?
I know that is so judgemental and we have it in my own family with my sister and BIL. Damn near broke and they still planned to have my nephew.
I don't get it. I know things happen, hell, I had DD#1 when I was 18. But being an adult in a relationship, knowing full well what your financial situation is and still looking to make it harder? I liken it to buying a nice car just because you want it, not thinking about paying for it, insurance, fuel, maintenance, etc.
On that same note, the other day I was in a store and in front of me was a lady with 3 kids and she was pregnant. She was also using food stamps. Now I don't know her situation, but I see it a LOT. I myself was on assistance when I had DD#1 but it was "required" for my situation as DD#1 needed unexpected surgery. Anyway, ex and I got our crap together, got off assistance asap and shut down the baby production until we were damn good and ready. Of course, that never happened as we divorced, but even DH and I took precautions until we could afford it.
Again, I know that this is very "judgey" and every situation is different...with all the WAH posts lately it just seems to be an issue that comes up once in a while.
DD#1~8/17/96------DS~10/24/05
This discussion has been closed.
Re: S/O barely making it, I have to ask....
I am curious what the rationale is too.
My mom got preggo with me at 17. My dad was 21. They got married, had me, and never had any more kids because they decided they couldn't afford it. In reality they probably could have later but didn't for whatever reason. Anyway, I commend their responsibility even though I always wanted a sibling.
I agree with this to a point. However, if your choice is to SAH AND limit your "extras" because a simple life is how you want to live I don't see this being a problem. Some people don't need big houses or new cars or even cable and that's fine. Living with a bare minimum is fulfilling for those who choose that lifestyle. This is what DH and I do. However we still plan for retirement and our children are happy and not deprived because of it.
I have no idea. I have a "friend" (we aren't friends anymore for various reasons) and she just announced she's pregnant with #3. Her DH has been out of work for over 2 years, they recently foreclosed their house, and they wouldn't be abole to pay their bills without getting cash from their MIL every month.
I just....totally don't get it.
We only have one DD and we are waiting to have another one...we want to take DD on vacation, be able to buy her toys and clothes, etc.
I wouldn't purposefully have a child if I thought I couldn't afford to take care of another, but what you are pointing out specifically could have a number of answers. And again we only know what facts we are given.
As for someone who is pregnant and down to the bare minimum, I can tell you first hand how quickly things can change....waaaaayyyy before the twins came along, we went from being "finacially ok", I would say stable, because to me stable is a fully stocked e-fund, etc. But we weren't drowning either. Couple that with me taking unpaid leave from work to care for my dying father and then just a month after he passed away having DH practically out of a job because his company just didn't have enough work to pay the guys, it did not take long for us to in a very tight and even low situation at times. That also comes with the territory of DH's job field.
Right now (thank goodness) he is with a company that pays him for at a minimum 40 hours a week and if he works overtime at all then he gets paid for that too. But before it was he only got paid for what he worked, which makes it very hard to budget and left us in a bind a lot. Would this have stopped me from having kids? I don't think so, but would I have been sure that I had enough to take care of the kids for atleast 6 months should we be in that situation, yes.
Infact from every.single.penny we earned from the time I got pregnant until now we made sure to save as much as we could and cut expenses and lived as low cost as we could, to ensure that if I was put on bedrest and later decided to SAH, we could manage. I am glad we did that, but not everyone can. And if he still worked for the company that he did before and ended up out of work when I was lets say 3 months pregnant, could we have been in the same situation, absolutly.
I've often heard people say "If you wait until you can "afford" a child, you'll never have one" and I do think there is SOME truth in that, but I also think it's foolish to knowingly have a child when you can barely afford neccesities for yourself or yourself and your DH.
It too infuriates me to see people on assistance and using "food stamps" to buy shrimp and booze or more expensive things. At the very least if you need the services then use them for what they are intended for...to help take care of the child or children.
This kind of hits home to me because of the twins, with the laws in our state they automatically qualified for certain services because of being premature and their low birth weight. Doesn't mean DH and I weren't financially fit to handle them in the least, but I am beyond grateful for the help with the medical bills, even after DH's insurance pays we still would have been out at a minimum $10,000-$15,000. And not to mention there are cases where a child or children are on certian (pricey) formulas or diets and that in itself can make a huge financial impact on a family who wasn't expecting it.
I guess in short, not everyone prepares for the worst case senerio and things happen.
Not everyone's life is going to fit into the white picket fence fairy tale. I never, in a million years, thought I would be need assistance for food but sometimes the worst happens and it did happen to my family. And, now I am pregnant. My husband and I already have discussed terminating the pregnancy but the idea breaks his heart.
We did have savings but it was used on the legal matter that started our downward spiral. We don't: buy new, use credit cards (paid them off years ago), live beyond our means, have cable. I hate when I see friends that I know have 20,000+ in credit card debt buying more things with their card. Spending more than $100 makes my physically ill.
Food stamps cannot be used for alcohol. It is a federal program and I don't think the rules vary much from state to state. If it seems that a store is somehow accepting food stamps for alcohol, call the agency in your state that manages the SNAP program and report it. If you are going to get judgy about those on SNAP, at least do something if you think it is being blatantly abused.
I am very sorry that all of this happened to you. And honestly I personally didn't mean to be or sound judgy. I have seen people use their SNAP cards on orders that contained these items and also paid in cash or another card so techniqually they personally are paying for these items.
I do get it that things happen and sometimes you do need the help and their is nothing wrong with that. While I haven't been pregnant and in the situation I have been down to my bottom dollar, and in some ways (atleast I hope) it's humbled me and taught me to give others the benefit of the doubt in most cases.
And I do give you major credit for doing all that you are doing. Sounds to me like you are still making responsible choices and doing what's right.
Don't sweat it. I really mean it when I say to report abuses of the welfare programs. People who abuse these programs are taking away needed services from people who truly need it.
The last two years have been so bad that I feel like I am in the middle of a negative kharma slap down. I will be grateful to back in a position where we won't need any help. We are trying to stay focused on our son, school, and work and this period of our lives will be over soon.
I know you acknowledged that you're being judgey, and I appreciate that. But honestly I'm having a tough time not taking offense. Really, I'm trying not to... but it's hard not to feel weird about it. So, sorry if this sounds bad (and is really long!).
I was one of the ones who said we barley make it. To me, I don't feel like people should be denied the joys of parenthood simply because they aren't well off. (Of course if they are living off of the government or charity that is another story. I also feel a stab of resentment for people on welfare who keep having kids).
But for us (who just live simply) I'd rather have more kids and siblings for my daughter than cable. Yes, money is very tight, but I don't think that means I shouldn't be pregnant.
We've both made good choices. We have college educations, waited until we were established in our careers to have kids and so on. We're both in our mid 30's. DH is a manager who earns well into a 6 figure salary (at an incredibly big and stable tech company). Also we do have some back up savings and no CC debt. There's just NO extra, and we have to be very careful.
I don't feel like we don't deserve to have (or shouldn't be having) more kids, or that I shouldn't being staying home. It is important to us for me to be home, more important than vacations.
To think that we shouldn't be able to have more kids because of money sounds not only judgmental, but materialistic and elitist as well. Our daughter is happy, healthy, safe and well taken care of. We make sure of it. It's also important to us that she have the gift of a sibling.
We have to be so careful with money because it's very expensive to live where we do. We can't live elsewhere because DH's company (and the silicon valley) are here. Also it's important for us to stay near family. Even rent on a simple 2 bedroom apartment (in a safe neighborhood) is about $2,400 a month here. Childcare isn't cheap either. Even if I did want to work my teacher's salary would have barley covered it.
Being that we're the age we are, we didn't want to wait longer for more kids. The risks associated with being pregnant are starting to increase every year.
As for no electricity, I personally wouldn't go that far. But also, I can't help but think about about a family living in a hut in Africa (for example)... should they not have a kid because they can't afford electricity?
maybe they couldn't afford birth control.
I am sorry- this is going to hit a button with me- I have WAY too many friends in the pharma industry (with BC pills) --
And why are condoms so expensive?
I really would be VERY pro- over the counter BC pills.
And honestly- my feelings really aren't solely related to women who are in less than 'ideal' financial situations. I feel that birth control should be made available OPENLY and dirt cheap.
I was thinking about this s/o post this all afternoon. We are doing just fine and things aren't tight at all, so I'm not personally in the situation. However, I could see if things went south with our financial situation after having DS that I would still want to have another child and not wait too long to do so (I'm 33) if things weren't turning around financially. I know we had some rough years as newlyweds without kids and both of our parents were in some bad financial situations at times (my dad's boss killed himself while we were in the middle of a major remodel and DH came from Russia). We are really responsible with our money, but I would still want a family. There are so many ups and downs with jobs, health, etc. and unless you expect that you will never be able to afford a child at any point in the future I think I would still try for that family that I wanted. I would be sad that I chose not to have kids b/c of a couple rough years. Of course every situation is different and I'm not talking about extreme cases where people pop out kid after kid with no intention of changing their situation for themselves or their children. I have also been a case worker with duel diagnosed individuals who had children and saw how frickin' hard the system made it for them to get their heads above water (sit all day at the welfare office from 8 a.m. for your "appointment", but if they haven't called you and you had to go pick up your kids from school at 3 you were SOL, no joke).
Ok, enough rambling for tonight!
The replies have been very interesting to read as I know every situation is different. With that said, the post was kind of difficult to write as there can be so many different reasons for why people are in that type of situation.
If you get pregnant and then a layoff happens, that's one thing. If you're told you can't have kids and it happens when you're so not prepared for it, that's another thing. So is if you chose to live frugally whether it's to save for your future or because you prefer a certain area to live in. Then there are the unexpected things (illness, accidents, fire, etc.) that can really screw things up. There are so many different scenarios....
I'm talking about those who live paycheck to paycheck, wondering how they'll make it work with paying the bills, all the while purposely having more children that they just can't afford. Or in the example I used, receiving assistance while having more kids.
As controversial as it can be, I think that you can't afford them, you shouldn't have them. I don't think anyone has the "right" to have kids. If you have them because you want them, knowing full well that you can't afford them (and so you will need assistance through the government).....that is what I don't get.
As for birth control/insurance/cost....I thought it was messed up back when I was on it so I can honestly say that I have no first hand experience with it now, I only get what I catch in the news.
DD#1~8/17/96------DS~10/24/05
I agree with you.
When people keep having kids simply out of laziness, and I'm the one who has to pay for it (in the form of government assistance) that is NOT okay with me.
However, other than that what constitutes being able to "afford" and "not afford" children is so subjective that I don't like pass judgment on others. If their kids' basic needs are being met and they are safe and loved, then who am I to say if what they are doing is wrong?
This is the kind of crap that drives me crazy. And obviously this is an extreme case, but parents who *legitimately* cannot afford to support themselves, and choose to bring children into that situation... I just don't understand that. I mean, no one knows what goes on in a family except for the people in our family, so it's not our place to judge, but I just really don't get it. I guess I don't have to, but whatever.
I completely agree about birth control being widely available... However, before DH and I were sharing finances, I did not make much money AT ALL, and I got my birth control as a generic for $9/month from the grocery store. That's WAY cheaper than condoms. When I was young, I went to the health department and got it for free. I feel like not enough women (or men!) take responsibility for their birth control, and it's completely ridiculous. Things happen, yes. But mostly people are just irresponsible.
Just think how bleak this type of life can be. I am not condoning it at all but if you have given up on life or just cannot get ahead, maybe the only fun you can have is the free kind (ie sex lol). But birth control is expensive. Buy condoms or food for the other kids at home? Tough choice. And a baby is happiness to everyone, even with the stress and monet worries. It's a ray of sunshine in a depressing life. I don't agree with it but can see how it happens.
Yeah Ry- it is extreme- I just so happened upon that news 'article' as I finished reading Daisy's post- so I had to throw it in to the mix.
And I agree - WAY too many people are irresponsible- and just plain lazy when it comes to preventing pregnancy-
Okay, so this is a bit of a spin-off from the topic at hand. I agree that birth control should be easily available an inexpensive, but the thing is that for people who are truly low income it already is readily available for free through state programs and often without a prescription. I know there is a gap in there of people who make too much to qualify for state programs but don't have health insurance, and it is tough on those people, but many people who qualify for free birth control refuse it, don't follow through with it, or don't use it regularly.
DH is an ob/gyn resident, and therefore sees primarily low income patients, and we were actually discussing this the other day. He gets very frustrated that his patients so often refuse birth control even when they have tons of kids they can't/don't support, 4+ c-sections, or diseases which make it dangerous for them to become pregnant (or pregnant again) . They offer birth control to all their post-partum patients in the hospital, and some take it but they often don't follow-up, so they only get that first round. Ideally, if a patient can't be relied on or doesn't want to take a pill every day, change a ring or patch every week or get a shot each month an IUD would be a great option, but they can't be given right after birth (well, they can, but there's a high failure rate). The IUD can be put in after 6 weeks but lots of patients change their minds, some don't come back and some get pregnant in the interim. I know some people have moral objections to birth control, but I doubt that is the case in the majority of these situations. It comes down to personal responsibility, planning, and taking responsibility for something that hasn't happened yet.
I will be definitely one to say i am a Roman Catholic and I am ALL about a woman's right to birth control- now that being said- 100% it has to be used effectively- whatever method you choose- you HAVE to pop a pill daily, schedule a monthly shot or have an IUD in place.
So USER ERROR is definitely a factor- that being said- I really strongly believe that a woman should NOT need to schedule and apt with a doctor to discuss BC options and be 'subjected' to a pelvic exam just to obtain BC pills (I AM NOT belitting the importance of yearly pelvic checks- however i do not think it should be tied to the ability to obtaining a script for BC pills). Yes- you CAN walk in to a clinic and get pills- however i do not think we as a nation- put that OUT THERE as a viable option ENOUGH. We should do a much better job at promoting the obtainability of free/low cost birth control (options) and PUT THE INFO out there on how to readily obtain (if you can't get it at a CVS... which is what i would primiarly advoate for)
Just my two cents.
Yes you absolutely have to use it correctly- however obtaining it easily is a first step. IMHO.
That must be so frustrating for him to see. Through my old job I knew a l lot of low income families who were Catholic and didn't always believe in certain birth control methods. I wonder if that's why some people say no.
As for low cost, it's been a while since I've been in one, but Planned Parenthood always had a big basket of condoms sitting out in the waiting room that anyone could help themselves to, no questions asked. Both of my colleges' health centers did too.
Welcome to America...?
Home of the....
over populated?
I would like to chime in that we are in the category of barely making it and choosing to start a family. I would like to say that it makes me very angry that my husband works 50 hours a week, and I work part time and we STILL have difficulty making do because we just can't find well enough paying jobs. We went to school, we work hard, and we are supposed to not have a family because the cost of living where we are is high enough we don't have a livable income. We have cut out extras and live as simply as we can. Its hard, but we make do. Also, I know many families who make MUCH more than we do and still live PAC to PAC--their expenses just rise with their income; it is not just a poor person phenomenon.
To us, since I am already mostly out of work, having a family made sense. Even if I could find a job, its likely good childcare it would cost more than what I would make. Low-income childcare programs have been cut to the bare minimum and even though we qualify for WIC and Medicare Deductible Assistance, we are not poor enough for childcare monies left. So instead of continuing to look for full time work [after 2 years of finding nothing] we are starting a family and hoping the economy is better when the kid starts kindergarten.
I'm sorry we are using taxpayer money to have a child, but we work, pay our taxes and pay into that system too. I plan to go back to nearly full-time work as soon as the kid is in school and childcare won't steal what income I make and I'll pay into it for the next person who needs it.
Lastly, why are we automatically bad parents because we are poor? Is it just anger over using government assistance? I'm sorry, we qualify for that anyways because we are poor. If you would like to offer me a well paying job or an apartment that is not half our income, or a health plan that doesn't have a $2500 deductible, thanks! We would LOVE to get off assistance!
I don't consider a family with savings, no credit card debt, and a 6 figure income "barely making it".
I think people who are living paycheck to paycheck with no extra and/or living on public assistance is who the OP is talking about.
In sitautions like yours, where it's not lucrative for the mom to work, there are so many options to bring in income. Work part/full time evenings at a retail store/hotel/grocery store/call center, watch kids at home, clean houses on the weekends, etc etc.
Since I posted on the original thread and am pg, I figured I should reply. After reading other people's responses, I think I'm definitely not in the "just making it" category. I've been frustrated this week because I'm in a wedding in a few weeks and am overburdened with expenses. DH makes a great salary, we live in a beautiful home, we have one car payment and our mortgage, but no debt other than that. We save money into an e-fund, save for retirement, college, etc. Do I have money to drop $1000 on a bachelorette weekend, no. Do I coupon and look for deals and live on a budget, yes. But we have more than enough, and I probably should've written my post differently so it didn't look like we were struggling.
Since SAH, I'm had to adjust to a 40% reduction in our household income, and when you're used to having so much more money to play with, it's hard. Sometimes I honestly get frustrated that we have to live on such a budget, but there are other families with dual incomes that are still living on budgets. And its worth it to me to be able to be at home with my daughter, cook healthy meals, keep a clean house, etc.
And like I mentioned in my post, I recently landed a pt job to bring in money for extras and to beef up our savings.
So, yes, I feel like we are in a good place to have another baby. I don't think that I probably fit the description of the person(s) to whom you were referring in your post, but because I responded that money is tight, I thought I'd better chime in. I could not bring another baby in this world if I didn't think I could afford him/her.
I am kind of convinced that there are those who get into this situation (barely making it & pregnant with another child they most likely cannot afford) are just telling those who ask that they planned the pregnancy.
I have always wondered what possesses people to ask whether or not the pg was planned? The person who answers (in this situation) may just be saying that to get off of the conversation. I tend to think a lot of the time multiple, consecutive pregnancies in less than ideal financial situations tend to be the result of improper use of BC. I suppose there are some folks who are lazy, but the percentage of that I think is blown out of proportion.
Also, shyt happens. You get pregnant and everything is going awesome. Then it isn't and you are in a situation where you didn't plan to be. Personally, H & I factored emergency funds into our "Getting Ready to TTC" plan. We had the luxury (not everyone does I realize that) of getting to really plan how we wanted this whole thing to go. However, you never really know. Even our emergency funds and the other rainy day fund we have set aside could not be enough. You plan for what you can and deal with the rest, KWIM?
The people that TTC without insurance or a real financial plan? I think they are setting themselves up for hardship. Even with government funding and programs-- life is not easy at all and why you would choose to do that to you (or your kids) I don't really understand either.
This isn't the whole "poor people shouldn't have kids" thing-- I think you owe it to your kids to give them a good start if you can. If you just want to stomp your feet and say I want a baby, then no good. Children are not a right at all. It makes no sense to voluntarily bring a kid into poverty, if in fact, that is what is actually happening. I'm not convinced that this is what is going down. I think there are a whole lot of accidents that are just being labeled as planned.
I was just lurking and saw this thread and just had to post.
My first reaction is that people have the right to start a family whether they're poor or not. I feel like in today's world, people get caught up in too many materialistic things and feel that a child NEEDS these things but really doesn't. Just because you're living paycheck to paycheck doesn't mean you shouldn't have children. For some people, that's the best they're going to do. And just because you bring a child into poverty doesn't mean they will continue the cycle of poverty. I have experienced and seen many people who grew up dirt poor and is now taking care of themselves with no assistance and some are pretty well off.
BUT I understand what a lot of you are saying. There is a limit. A poor family with 2 or 3 children will be better taken care of and have a better chance of getting off assistance or doing better than a poor family with 5 or 6. At some point, you gotta know you're only making it harder for yourself. What that point is, I don't know. All I can say is maybe they don't believe in birth control or they're not educated enough to know where to get birth control. (As obvious it is for me to know about free clinics that give birth control, I find that a lot of people don't know about them)
In the end though, I don't feel money should determine when or how many children you have. That's something that money just shouldn't dictate.
Also a lurker.
NO. Having a family is NOT A RIGHT. OMG. It's a privilege. I honestly cannot fathom having had a child if DH and I had been in such a bad position that we were financially BARELY able to care for ourselves, were on assistance, etc.
I get that sometimes crap happens...like you're already pregnant and you both lose your jobs, what have you. Different story. But to be in a bad financial situation already, be on assistance, be struggling in your every day life, to struggle to provide groceries for your family, and you think you have a RIGHT to have a child? Point to me where it says that in the Constitution. Please. Right to bear arms? Freedom of religion? Right to free speech? Yep. Right to have children? No sir.
Wait, when did "struggling" and choosing to accept government assistance that you qualify for equal not having insurance, a financial plan or struggling just to put groceries on the table? We struggle to pay off my student loan but have cut back all extras, budgeted in health insurance, set up a retirement fund and college fund and we manage to have healthy food at home. We are making do as is, but having some help makes things much easier.
At the same time, this argument is pointless. I can't convince you I'm not a shitty person for accepting WIC, and you can't convince me that I shouldn't accept a program that I've voted to support and paid taxes to fund. This is a completely ideological/political difference; I like supporting government programs and I paid my taxes happily for the last 10 years but I know lots of people don't feel that way.
Also, I would like to just point out that there are a large number of American families that pay NO federal or state tax and still use roads, emergency services and parks. I pay for that despite being poor; in a way they are using my paycheck for things they use.
I'm sorry you are so upset about this; I hope you are supporting politicians that agree with your views because its going to help change things to the way you want them much better than yelling at me!
Sorry I disagree. Freedom of choice. Everyone has the right to choose if they want a family, when they want a family, how they will get that family, and how they will sustain that family. Yes there are more ideal situations that most people would like to have their family in, but that's living in a dream world. Nothing is ever going to be exactly the way you want it. Nothing is ever going to be set up perfectly for your children and to think otherwise is naive. There are people working minimum wage, on assistance, and have no way of getting into a better situation to have children. So they don't deserve to have a child of their own. They don't deserve to experience the joy of watching their offspring grow, learn, and make their mark on the world?? And from what I've seen, GOOD parents who have children they can't afford make sacrifices to give the children what they need. Sometimes mommy and daddy don't eat so children can eat. Sometimes parents pawn jewelry to pay bills. My mother did this for me and my brother and I know she wouldn't change it for the world. Yes she wishes things wouldn't have been that way but hey they were. To me, the whole idea that a family is not a right is an elitist thought and many of the people here today wouldn't exist based on that thought.