When time outs don't work/not effective....what for punishment?

calico77 · June 2011

DS#1 is 4. Since DS#2 came a long a year ago, his behavior has spiraled downward. I think part of this is my fault due to some depression, not really wanting to be a SAHM, tension with DH (been going to marriage counseling since March to help with that) and probably too much TV watching. He is out of 3 day a week church preschool for the summer and just seems to be getting wilder and wilder.

Spankings don't help and he is currently in time out but yelling/making mouth noises/asking when he can get out. I don't think the time out is effective at all. Any more suggestions? TV watching has already started to decrease and we are doing other engaging things this summer--library visits, swimming lessons, playdates, free movies at movie theatre, visit to grandma's house. But those only engage him for a small period of time. The rest of the time, he seems to be some crazy kid I don't even recognize.

n&bcarlson · June 2011

Can you try just sending him to his room to calm down? Ignore him as long as you must, then sit down with him once he's calm and ask him what is going on. Tell him you're not mad at him but that you have to figure out why he is acting like this. At 4, he should be able to identify some of his feelings. Do you think it could have to do with jealousy over his brother, or maybe just missing school and friends?

You could try a sticker chart with the behaviors you want to see (better than listing what you don't want to see, if possible) and rewarding him at the end of the week with something special- maybe a trip to the store to pick out a candy without his brother coming along, or a playdate with a school friend if one of those things is at the root of the behavior. Sometimes punishment just makes things worse in my experience, because they love the attention, no matter how negative. My 3 year old loves to see mommy get "mad" when she's in a mood.

BTIP10 · June 2011

DS is 3 and time outs don't work for him either. Try cutting out TV completely. DS has a morning routine of waking up and having a program then eating breakfast. After a few times of throwing a tantrum about not having more programs I cut them out entirely. Now he knows things will be taken away if he doesn't act appropriately. Same goes for toys, or things he likes. If he acts up I take away a toy. If the taking away doesn't work I threaten to throw it out. His behavior changed after one thrown out toy.

Also, try spending one on one time with just DS#1 and make sure he knows he is still important to you. It sounds like he is trying to get any attention from you at all and might just need to feel a little more loved (in his eyes)/wanted (again, in his eyes).

GL mama!!

mabma80 · June 2011

I've heard Dr. Phil say that you have to find each child's "currency". Something that will really get them to do something or stop doing something. Like DS1's "currency" is either no TV after dinner time (we let him watch one episode of something before bed), or no hanging with Dad when he grills.

If those don't work just come up with something you weren't going to do anyway. For example, sometimes DS1 &/or DS2 will be acting up and DH will come in and say "Ok! No popcorn or a movie tonight!" (which we weren't going to do anyway) and they started crying and promising they'll be good. HAHA!! It's wrong but it teaches a lesson. : )

flyingsaucer · June 2011

I just posted above that I read the book 123 Magic... it REALLY helped but you have to be consistent and stick with it. Try the book! GL!

JillAly · June 2011

I totally agree with mabma. Every child is different and you have to find their "currency". I like that term! I would only add one thing. The punishment needs to be immediate. It can't be "if you don't do x, there will be no TV tonight". Tonight is too far away for them. It has to be "get dressed now or I'm shutting off the TV now" So you may need a few things- turning the tv off if they are watching it at that moment. If they're not, then find something else.

DS also loves TV and we take that away. He also loves his backpack. I put his backpack into the time out. For some reason, with ds, he gets more upset if the backpack gets a time out than if he gets a time out himself.

Pesky · June 2011

yep, finding the currency is key. I usually try to match the punishment to the crime. She doesn't eat a good dinner or balks at trying something new, okay, no dessert. She is a pill in the morning and won't listen, she may lose out on her juice and then she gets woken up earlier the next morning and put to bed earlier too. She is empowered to make choices within reason but she also suffers the results of those choices. She acts up at the store and doesn't listen -- she gets left at home the next time as well as missing out on the pony ride machine at the end. Given what you are talking about, have you spoken to your pedi about any testing for ADHD? I know everyone is quick to jump to that to blame ordinary activity levels but always something to think about because why let him suffer if it is an actual chemical imbalance.

shouldbworkin · June 2011

I really liked Love and Logic for the Early years. If he's acting out for attention, 123 Magic and L&L will help b/c they take the emotion out of it for you. You tell them up front what the consequence is and if X happens, then Y will follow. When you know what follows, it's a lot easier for you to say "uh oh, looks like we have to leave" whatever fun place you're at that day.

I don't know if I really subscribe to the "currency" theory. It can backfire with kids that are really defiant. They really don't care what you take away, they'll keep acting out to get any kind of attention. What I think does help is going over the top about behavior you like to see and giving more attention to that than what you feel is necessary. At 4, a positive reward system can go a long way, as does reminding your DC about how he's workig toward a reward before you encounter a tricky situation.

My DS was super defiant and what helped most was to take the penalty out of it and keep things positive. TO's are used for when either of us needs to calm down. We talk a lot about feelings and how we deal with them appropriately. I will even tell him how his behavior is making me feel and that I need to take a deep breath or go to my room to calm down. If a consequence really makes him fall apart, I will give him a do-over to make a better choice and he always does better. So, as much as you have to follow through, they're still little and make mistakes and as long as they can show they're learning, I think 2nd chances are ok.

calico77 · June 2011

Funny--I never got back online to check the responses till today....I finished 123 Magic last night, borrowed from the marriage counselor! I need to reread it as I was incredibly sleepy when I read it but I do think it has some good points.

mum2jack&littleb · June 2011

This sounds a lot like my DS, almost 5 years old. We've found that he needs a SOLID protein-rich breakfast (think peanut butter on whole grain bagels with big cup of milk), frequent protein-rich snacks, and TONS of physical activity. If he does not get regular, extended play/exercise, he is incredibly defiant and rude. Like a possessed child who cannot in any way control his actions or reactions.

FWIW, we also have gone through extensive testing and we now know that he is ADHD, with impulse control issues. We've been able to manage so far with no medication by focusing on the stuff I wrote above. Another big thing is to "catch him" behaving positively. Praise the heck out of all the good stuff. Reward little positive behaviours and they turn into bigger positive behaviours. Also, we've had to do a lot of letting go of the littler nitpicky things in order to focus on extinguishing unacceptable behaviours.

That said, he still does have to sometimes go to his room for cool-down time or to "find a better attitude" if there's no other great alternative. This gives him and us time/space. I've also put myself in timeout before - just to have cooling off time before I talk.

DeputiesWife · June 2011

Time outs arent effective when I do them - but when DH does they are. Her currency with me is reading books before bed. In the evening if she is acting up or not listening, I take away books. Currently we read 3 because she is 3 years old. It gets her everytime, I think she remembers when I put her to bed with no books, she was beside herself. And I felt bad, but i had to stick with it.

jsugrin · June 2011

Time outs don't work here either anymore. Also don't be too hard on yourself, 3 is a really, really hard time, new sibling or not, PPD or not. I understand because I do it myself but man is 3 hard.

2 things I've learned with my son is 1. he needs waaaaaay more physical activity then I could imagine possible and 2. when he wants my attention (even if I feel I'm giving it) then his behavior immediately goes to full out *** (yes, yes I did just call my 3 year old and ***).

I've done 2 things to approach the situation 1. get him as much activity as possible and 2. teach him to come up to me and say "mama, I want some attention". It's amazing how providing him with the language to express himself appropriately has helped. Now he doesn't always do it but if I suspect that's the issue (I'm on the phone, the computer, reading, playing with brother, folding laundry ect) then I get right down on his level or pick him up and ask him, " Andrew are you acting like this because you really want mama's attention?". 99% of the time he says yes and so I remind him, how do you get mama's attention. The key to making this work is that every single time he does it without prompting I stop what I am doing, no matter what it is and give him some attention. If I'm on the phone and it's important it may only be a minute and then I try to wrap up the phone call, then reinforce his positive behavior with lots of praise for asking nicely, then for waiting ect.

Another thing we've taught him is that if he's trying to talk to one of us, or has said something and we didn't hear to walk right up to us and take us by the hand and say " I need to talk to you". It's incredible! No more fits because we "ignored" him.

ecoppins · June 2011

Jusgrin and mum have some great ideas. I'm big on the diet and activities. Tv is a special treat (while mommy showers I have found a big correlation between diet and behavior. The better they eat the better they act. Sugar=cranky.

In addition to needing your attention, you said there was a noticable decrease in behavior since school has been out. He may need some structured activities. Try some 20 minute ones, like playdough time or dance time or music time. Also, get him involved in what you are doing. If I have to write or do mail etc. I sit down at the table and have the girls next to me coloring. We match socks together on the floor. I have also found that more physical contact helps.

Dd1 had some behavior issues (I think largely from adjusting to me sahming and dd2). I found that cuddling helped hugely. When I saw her behavior just begining to decline I would ask if we could hug it out. Sometimes after a good long hug/cuddle I would say that mommy likes to see it when she ___________ not when she ___________. When I saw her doing a good job, I would go tell her that she was being a good girl that she was doing whatever it was specifically well/I was proud/like a big girl/good sister etc. Possitive reinforcement was so huge for her.

I have found that a child works hard to stay in good graces when in good graces but once in trouble it doesn't matter to them and it escalates quickly. We also don't do TO often, so they work well. If she is just getting stirred up we take a breather. We/she sits down and takes a few deep breaths (in through the nose out through the mouth) or counts to ten. If she isn't playing nicely she gets sent to her room and can come out when she is ready to play nicely. If she is doing something minor she shouldn't we do 1,2,3 at 3 I intervene. (If I cannot intervene, I don't count)

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