f/u to Why do you work? Observation.

katydid2007 · May 2011

"Those who cannot remember the past, are doomed to repeat it."

~ Saytayana, Philospher

I read through the responses to the why do you work post and only one poster noted financial independence and her response went largely ignored. Working mothers always seem to ignore the endless possibilities and benefits that their salary affords them. You can be self sufficient! You don't have to rely on anyone to bring money in to feed you or your children (historically speaking, a relatively new privilege afforded to women). That's an amazing accomplishment. You have a safety net and growth potential at a job - whether you work at McDonalds or whether you're an IB! Give yourselves some credit, ladies!

I feel very fortunate to live in a time where I am able to climb a corporate ladder and report to a woman and mother who is nationally recognized - an outstanding role model whose adult children are successful, well-adjusted members of society.

Sure, I'm a **gasp** feminist.

OrangeSmoke · May 2011

Amen to that!

Signed - another feminist.

mylittlesunshine · May 2011

Yes

madhatter2003 · May 2011

I agree. Not necessarily because of divorce, but I have had 2 friends die young with small children. They had life insurance, etc but even then...I'm glad to know I'd be ok if something happened that I'd need to support myself.

supermom2008 · May 2011

Thank you! I really needed to see this today. I'm a sahm currently looking for work, and most of my friends are sahm. They make me feel as if I'm doing something horrible to my three year old but returning to work.

mysticporter · May 2011

Honestly? I'm proud that I *don't* consider financial independence to be why I work. I'm not financial "independent", my family is dependent on me (in my case, completely, although for many families both spouses are equally depended upon). I do greatly appreciate having the opportunity as a woman to advance, but I'm happy that woman are in many cases are viewing themselves as integral parts of their family financial dynamic. To me, focusing on financial independence still corners women as having the "extra" income, the 'what if your husband, the 'real' breadwinner, leaves you', or 'don't you want to be able to spend without asking his permission' mentality, rather than putting men/women as equal partners.

In general the whole "why do you work" question is odd to me, and a bit sexist...people don't tend to ask men why they work.

GeneGoddess · May 2011

mysticporter:
Honestly? I'm proud that I *don't* consider financial independence to be why I work. I'm not financial "independent", my family is dependent on me (in my case, completely, although for many families both spouses are equally depended upon). I do greatly appreciate having the opportunity as a woman to advance, but I'm happy that woman are in many cases are viewing themselves as integral parts of their family financial dynamic. To me, focusing on financial independence still corners women as having the "extra" income, the 'what if your husband, the 'real' breadwinner, leaves you', or 'don't you want to be able to spend without asking his permission' mentality, rather than putting men/women as equal partners.
In general the whole "why do you work" question is odd to me, and a bit sexist...people don't tend to ask men why they work.

I completely agree. I work because I *LOVE* what I do. I always planned to work FT and still do. If I didn't, it sure would be a big waste of two doctoral degrees and almost twenty years of post-HS education and training. Could I quit and stay home? Sure...DH makes great money. Could he quit and stay home instead of me? Absolutely...my income (next year) will be over triple his. But we work because we love to. It's not about fancy cars or expensive clothes, it's about the CAREER!

katydid2007 · May 2011

GeneGoddess:
mysticporter:

Honestly? I'm proud that I *don't* consider financial independence to be why I work. I'm not financial "independent", my family is dependent on me (in my case, completely, although for many families both spouses are equally depended upon). I do greatly appreciate having the opportunity as a woman to advance, but I'm happy that woman are in many cases are viewing themselves as integral parts of their family financial dynamic. To me, focusing on financial independence still corners women as having the "extra" income, the 'what if your husband, the 'real' breadwinner, leaves you', or 'don't you want to be able to spend without asking his permission' mentality, rather than putting men/women as equal partners.

In general the whole "why do you work" question is odd to me, and a bit sexist...people don't tend to ask men why they work.

I completely agree. I work because I *LOVE* what I do. I always planned to work FT and still do. If I didn't, it sure would be a big waste of two doctoral degrees and almost twenty years of post-HS education and training. Could I quit and stay home? Sure...DH makes great money. Could he quit and stay home instead of me? Absolutely...my income (next year) will be over triple his. But we work because we love to. It's not about fancy cars or expensive clothes, it's about the CAREER!

Really these are the "endless possibilities and benefits" that I'm talking about - the means and ability to support your family and have an exciting career that you love (I could go on and on about the endless possibilities and benefits). I'm absolutely not at all stating that women should only work as a back-up plan (although I think everyone, man or woman, should have one). I'm merely observing that a lot of women state multiple reasons for working without realizing that in working, there is an ancillary benefit of also being financially independent. And, Mystic, by no means am I saying that financial independence means being void of responsibility. In my opinion it means taking control over financial matters - most certainly NOT an "extra income" argument.

Spenjamins · May 2011

mysticporter:

Honestly? I'm proud that I *don't* consider financial independence to be why I work. I'm not financial "independent", my family is dependent on me (in my case, completely, although for many families both spouses are equally depended upon). I do greatly appreciate having the opportunity as a woman to advance, but I'm happy that woman are in many cases are viewing themselves as integral parts of their family financial dynamic. To me, focusing on financial independence still corners women as having the "extra" income, the 'what if your husband, the 'real' breadwinner, leaves you', or 'don't you want to be able to spend without asking his permission' mentality, rather than putting men/women as equal partners.

In general the whole "why do you work" question is odd to me, and a bit sexist...people don't tend to ask men why they work.

I agree with this to a large extent. And men do not work for "financial independence". Then again, it was not so long ago that women had no indpendence or rights.

So I kind of see both sides.

**

katydid2007 · May 2011

Men absolutely work for financial independence - the ability to support themselves and their families. The difference, I think, is that it is often just a given for men. Of course they don't expect to rely on another person for money. Of course they want to maintain control over their money. Ask any working father if he is or wants to be financially independent and I guarantee you'll get a yes.

sju · May 2011

Boo! the Bump ate my reply but here is the short version.

I always state financial indepence but that does not mean I do not like my job or that I am not treated as equal, or that I am not an integral part of the home finances. I have never wanted to be fully dependent on DH financially. It is that simple. Like everyone, I take a lot of pride on working to provide for our family and for building our future. I have sacrificed a lot to be where I am. Having financial inpendence has never been about having "extra" money for me to use as I please.

jteneback · May 2011

Agreed. I love having my own money to spend, and knowing if something happens to DH I can take care of myself and DD.

Maybride2 · May 2011

I was honestly saddened at the number of women who stated that they work because they "have" to but don't want to. But like mystic said, I hate that question anyway because it presumes that women need a reason - a justification - to work. No one would think to ask a working father why he works, or accuse him of not raising his child because he puts 8 hours/day in at an office. It's bullshart.

Spenjamins · May 2011

katydid2007:

Men absolutely work for financial independence - the ability to support themselves and their families. The difference, I think, is that it is often just a given for men. Of course they don't expect to rely on another person for money. Of course they want to maintain control over their money. Ask any working father if he is or wants to be financially independent and I guarantee you'll get a yes.

You mean working fathers wish they had wives who worked and made money or were independently wealthy SAHMs?

Spenjamins · May 2011

Maybride2:
I was honestly saddened at the number of women who stated that they work because they "have" to but don't want to. But like mystic said, I hate that question anyway because it presumes that women need a reason - a justification - to work. No one would think to ask a working father why he works, or accuse him of not raising his child because he puts 8 hours/day in at an office. It's bullshart.

I think it is sad that more women can't wrap their minds around being thrilled to have a career and children.

Maybride2 · May 2011

Spenjamins:
Maybride2:
I was honestly saddened at the number of women who stated that they work because they "have" to but don't want to. But like mystic said, I hate that question anyway because it presumes that women need a reason - a justification - to work. No one would think to ask a working father why he works, or accuse him of not raising his child because he puts 8 hours/day in at an office. It's bullshart.

I think it is sad that more women can't wrap their minds around being thrilled to have a career and children.

I agree, and that's what saddened me. That so many women seem to feel that it has to be one or the other.

thatjessie · May 2011

Spenjamins:

I think it is sad that more women can't wrap their minds around being thrilled to have a career and children.

Yes

Spenjamins · May 2011

My thought to end the day - I guess I think it is sad that some women still have this idea of a perfect life - of being a SAHM with a man caring for them and being the breadwinner.

I don't think it really has as much to do with kids as it does with the not working. The goal in life is to find a DH that makes enough money so the woman doesn't have to.

duchess0727 · May 2011

I definitely see what Spenjamins is saying. It makes me sad that women feel like their goal in life should be to find a husband who makes enough that they can stay home. But I also see that many of my friends who SAH just don't have the energy to try to do it all and I can respect that because I find it to be pretty challenging to manage it all myself. But I very much agree with the idea of this post. A while ago there was an article written by a woman who got divorced and regretted her time out of the work force and it absolutely astonished me how many women on the SAHM board posted that either they didn't have to worry because their marriage was secure or that in a divorce they would be fine so they didn't worry about it. Only a handful of people expressed any concern at all about the idea that someone might not support them for the rest of their lives. Unfortunately in real life, I know several women who have been severly impacted by divorce and found themselves in a difficult financial position. I think everyone works for financial independence - even my husband does. He doesn't want me to have to support him and I don't want him to have to support me so we do it together. And it certainly makes me sleep better at night knowing that I could support my family on my own if something happened to him where he couldn't work.

HSartteach · May 2011

I don't understand what you mean by financial independence. Independence from who? Your DH? Is the money you 2 make not "our" money? Is it your money and his money?

I'm not trying to be snarky. I am asking honestly. I guess I work because I want to work and to provide for our future. It's our future--why should we not both make it happen?

I am just really confused by this independence term.

Quazel · May 2011

HSartteach:
I don't understand what you mean by financial independence. Independence from who? Your DH? Is the money you 2 make not "our" money? Is it your money and his money?
I'm not trying to be snarky. I am asking honestly. I guess I work because I want to work and to provide for our future. It's our future--why should we not both make it happen?
I am just really confused by this independence term.

I agree with this sentiment! I am the sole breadwinner in my house but I have never thought of it as anything but our money, our finances, our past, present and future. Our family is our priority and DH and all are taking on the roles that we think are important for our family's well being, gender is irrelevant.

That being said, I find it sad that some women can't wrap their heads around the fact that all, as in wanting it all, is different for every woman. I am a very well educated woman with a good career, as well as several other career options, a job I love and a bright professional career ahead of me as a teacher or performer. Yet what I really want from life is to be home with my child/children. In my family's perfect world, that is the role I want to play. It isn't in the cards right now so I do what my family needs me to do. It is insulting to say I can't wrap my head around doing both. I very much can wrap my head around it but it isn't what my heart wants and there is nothing wrong with that.

Spenjamins · May 2011

HSartteach:

I don't understand what you mean by financial independence. Independence from who? Your DH? Is the money you 2 make not "our" money? Is it your money and his money?

I'm not trying to be snarky. I am asking honestly. I guess I work because I want to work and to provide for our future. It's our future--why should we not both make it happen?

I am just really confused by this independence term.

Countless studies show that the nonworking parent most often gets screwed in a divorce.

katydid2007 · May 2011

Spenjamins:
katydid2007:

Men absolutely work for financial independence - the ability to support themselves and their families. The difference, I think, is that it is often just a given for men. Of course they don't expect to rely on another person for money. Of course they want to maintain control over their money. Ask any working father if he is or wants to be financially independent and I guarantee you'll get a yes.

You mean working fathers wish they had wives who worked and made money or were independently wealthy SAHMs?

No, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Take the mothers out of the equation. I'm saying that the fathers consider themselves to be financially independent (or at least they want to be). Being financially dependent on another person, I would argue, is not an option most men see as desirable for the long term.

Gotta jump on a conference call... will be back to clarify what I mean by financial independence as it certainly does not mean independently wealthy. Hell, if I was independently wealthy you and I would be having this conversation over drinks, on the beach with the nanny chasing the kids nearby.

kmh2201 · May 2011

I wouldn't consider myself a feminist, but amen, sister! I like to contribute financially to the family. I also like the safety of having a job and income in case something were to happen to DH and he is no longer able to work. I like having the additional money going to retirement savings and college savings. I like that we're able to buy a really nice house that we wouldn't have been able to afford on one salary. I like being able to take the kids on trips. (Disney will cost a fortune! We also want to take the kids on educational trips like to D.C., Williamsburg, VA, Philadelphia, NYC, etc.) I also like to shop, and I wouldn't be able to splurge on clothes and "extras" on one of our incomes.

Spenjamins · May 2011

katydid2007:
Spenjamins:
katydid2007:

Men absolutely work for financial independence - the ability to support themselves and their families. The difference, I think, is that it is often just a given for men. Of course they don't expect to rely on another person for money. Of course they want to maintain control over their money. Ask any working father if he is or wants to be financially independent and I guarantee you'll get a yes.

You mean working fathers wish they had wives who worked and made money or were independently wealthy SAHMs?

No, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Take the mothers out of the equation. I'm saying that the fathers consider themselves to be financially independent (or at least they want to be). Being financially dependent on another person, I would argue, is not an option most men see as desirable for the long term.

Gotta jump on a conference call... will be back to clarify what I mean by financial independence as it certainly does not mean independently wealthy. Hell, if I was independently wealthy you and I would be having this conversation over drinks, on the beach with the nanny chasing the kids nearby.

I totally misunderstood your post but forget that - let's dream of drinking on the beach......

katydid2007 · May 2011

HSartteach:

I don't understand what you mean by financial independence. Independence from who? Your DH? Is the money you 2 make not "our" money? Is it your money and his money?

I'm not trying to be snarky. I am asking honestly. I guess I work because I want to work and to provide for our future. It's our future--why should we not both make it happen?

I am just really confused by this independence term.

I'm back. It's not independence from anyone in particular. I am not advocating for any wife to live a separate and hostile financial life from her husband. Financial independence simply means that you are able to support yourself. That you have a means to earn money. It's just the ability to stand on your own two feet financially.

By your statement of why you work, I don't think you disagree with me... Why should it all be on your DH's shoulders to bring in the money? isn't there something to be said for it being an equal partnership on all levels? A household where parents share equally the responsibility of bringing in the money, caring for the house and taking care of children is a really, really nice way to live, imho. And, by doing this you're also ensuring that you do not have to be financially dependent on your DH. It may not be your primary reason for working, but my point is that I think women all too frequently overlook the incredible power this gives them - and this is a benefit you get whether you skip to the office or cry on your way in.

I could go on and on with this...

HSartteach · May 2011

katydid2007:
HSartteach:

I don't understand what you mean by financial independence. Independence from who? Your DH? Is the money you 2 make not "our" money? Is it your money and his money?

I'm not trying to be snarky. I am asking honestly. I guess I work because I want to work and to provide for our future. It's our future--why should we not both make it happen?

I am just really confused by this independence term.

I'm back. It's not independence from anyone in particular. I am not advocating for any wife to live a separate and hostile financial life from her husband. Financial independence simply means that you are able to support yourself. That you have a means to earn money. It's just the ability to stand on your own two feet financially.

By your statement of why you work, I don't think you disagree with me... Why should it all be on your DH's shoulders to bring in the money? isn't there something to be said for it being an equal partnership on all levels? A household where parents share equally the responsibility of bringing in the money, caring for the house and taking care of children is a really, really nice way to live, imho. And, by doing this you're also ensuring that you do not have to be financially dependent on your DH. It may not be your primary reason for working, but my point is that I think women all too frequently overlook the incredible power this gives them - and this is a benefit you get whether you skip to the office or cry on your way in.

I could go on and on with this...

To be honest, if DH were to lose his job, and was out of work for quite some time, we could not make it on my teaching salary. There's no way around that. I chose a very underpaid profession. I love my profession.

I guess I never saw not working as an option. I am very much a part of what makes this world tick, and I never dreamed of not being. I never considered that a woman can't work if she wants to.

I do see your point though.

HSartteach · May 2011

Spenjamins:
HSartteach:

I don't understand what you mean by financial independence. Independence from who? Your DH? Is the money you 2 make not "our" money? Is it your money and his money?

I'm not trying to be snarky. I am asking honestly. I guess I work because I want to work and to provide for our future. It's our future--why should we not both make it happen?

I am just really confused by this independence term.
Countless studies show that the nonworking parent most often gets screwed in a divorce.

However, Texas is joint property state. So unless one of us cheats, I get half whether I work or not.

katydid2007 · May 2011

HSartteach:
Spenjamins:
HSartteach:

I don't understand what you mean by financial independence. Independence from who? Your DH? Is the money you 2 make not "our" money? Is it your money and his money?

I'm not trying to be snarky. I am asking honestly. I guess I work because I want to work and to provide for our future. It's our future--why should we not both make it happen?

I am just really confused by this independence term.

Countless studies show that the nonworking parent most often gets screwed in a divorce.

However, Texas is joint property state. So unless one of us cheats, I get half whether I work or not.

hsartteach... there's so much we need to discuss! Wink

First, let me just preface this by saying in no way am I trying to be the voice of doom and gloom and "men suck" so protect yourself, blah blah. I love my DH - think he's awesome. But I do think that it is very important that all adults take care of themselves and prepare for the unexpected as best they can.

I'd like to say the odds are that none of us will split from our DHs but that's just not statisically true. I don't need to tell you the numbers, I'm sure you know. So, for arguments sake, let's say you split from your DH in TX, yes you will get half of whatever property you own. How long do you think 1/2 of what you have right now would last you? And, the court would likely award you some form of spousal support and child support but courts do not award that for the rest of your life - it's for a finite period of time, most likely until your child is 18. What then? Don't forget, men -- especially smart ones -- are very very good at manipulating the location of assets so that it appears as though they have less. Also, even with an award of child support and alimony if an exDH loses his job, becomes disabled, dies... the money is gone. How many divorced women with children do you know that are doing well? If they are doing well, I would bet that it's most likely due to their own income producing ability. You are in a remarkably better situation by having your job than you would be if you didn't. Think about getting blindsided (perhaps) by divorce and then, when you're at your lowest, having to rally to try to get back into the workforce after being out for X number of years. That would suck, no? Not trying to argue.. just encouraging you to think about it.

With regard to your other post about how you and your DH couldn't survive on your salary: If you'd be in trouble without your dh's salary if he lost his job, think about how screwed the two of you would be if you didn't have yours to make up for at least some of that loss (what a relief also to your DH, whose blood pressure is probably a little lower knowing that the entire burden of bringing money into the house isn't on his shoulders). You are greatly underestimating your value, imho. Sure, maybe your salary is on the low side now and money is tight because of childcare, etc. But contracts are renegotiated, new opportunities will present themselves and you will most likely make more money down the road. Kids go to school, childcare costs decrease you and your DHs net value will increase (thanks partly to your contribution). Before you know it, you will likely be a major income producer for your household. If your DH loses his job then, you'll be fine or, at the very least, the two of you will have basis off which to work to make ends meet.

Allright, I need to actually get some work done today, so I don't lose my job! lol.

HSartteach · May 2011

katydid2007:
HSartteach:
Spenjamins:
HSartteach:

I don't understand what you mean by financial independence. Independence from who? Your DH? Is the money you 2 make not "our" money? Is it your money and his money?

I'm not trying to be snarky. I am asking honestly. I guess I work because I want to work and to provide for our future. It's our future--why should we not both make it happen?

I am just really confused by this independence term.

Countless studies show that the nonworking parent most often gets screwed in a divorce.

However, Texas is joint property state. So unless one of us cheats, I get half whether I work or not.

hsartteach... there's so much we need to discuss!

First, let me just preface this by saying in no way am I trying to be the voice of doom and gloom and "men suck" so protect yourself, blah blah. I love my DH - think he's awesome. But I do think that it is very important that all adults take care of themselves and prepare for the unexpected as best they can.

I'd like to say the odds are that none of us will split from our DHs but that's just not statisically true. I don't need to tell you the numbers, I'm sure you know. So, for arguments sake, let's say you split from your DH in TX, yes you will get half of whatever property you own. How long do you think 1/2 of what you have right now would last you? And, the court would likely award you some form of spousal support and child support but courts do not award that for the rest of your life - it's for a finite period of time, most likely until your child is 18. What then? Don't forget, men -- especially smart ones -- are very very good at manipulating the location of assets so that it appears as though they have less. Also, even with an award of child support and alimony if an exDH loses his job, becomes disabled, dies... the money is gone. How many divorced women with children do you know that are doing well? If they are doing well, I would bet that it's most likely due to their own income producing ability. You are in a remarkably better situation by having your job than you would be if you didn't. Think about getting blindsided (perhaps) by divorce and then, when you're at your lowest, having to rally to try to get back into the workforce after being out for X number of years. That would suck, no? Not trying to argue.. just encouraging you to think about it.

With regard to your other post about how you and your DH couldn't survive on your salary: If you'd be in trouble without your dh's salary if he lost his job, think about how screwed the two of you would be if you didn't have yours to make up for at least some of that loss (what a relief also to your DH, whose blood pressure is probably a little lower knowing that the entire burden of bringing money into the house isn't on his shoulders). You are greatly underestimating your value, imho. Sure, maybe your salary is on the low side now and money is tight because of childcare, etc. But contracts are renegotiated, new opportunities will present themselves and you will most likely make more money down the road. Kids go to school, childcare costs decrease you and your DHs net value will increase (thanks partly to your contribution). Before you know it, you will likely be a major income producer for your household. If your DH loses his job then, you'll be fine or, at the very least, the two of you will have basis off which to work to make ends meet.

Allright, I need to actually get some work done today, so I don't lose my job! lol.

I think you are taking this too far. I was making a joke with the TX thing and I really didn't need a novel about divorce and how great it is I can work, blah, blah, blah.

katydid2007 · May 2011

HSartteach:

I think you are taking this too far. I was making a joke with the TX thing and I really didn't need a novel about divorce and how great it is I can work, blah, blah, blah.

Didn't seem like you were joking and, really, a lot of people read that and think - yeah, that's true and it's simply not. You made comments, I responded. But thanks.. I always appreciate an intelligent response.

HSartteach · May 2011

katydid2007:
HSartteach:

I think you are taking this too far. I was making a joke with the TX thing and I really didn't need a novel about divorce and how great it is I can work, blah, blah, blah.

Didn't seem like you were joking and, really, a lot of people read that and think - yeah, that's true and it's simply not. You made comments, I responded. But thanks.. I always appreciate an intelligent response.

I am not trying to be snarky here, so hopefully it won't read that way. I guess I should have added an emoticon with my first response. I often forget that my humor is lost in type. I was put off by the long response about divorce because I read the first portion of the thread as positive and about empowering women. I thought the response about divorce was bringing the thread in a different direction.

As for my other response about my work not being about the money and not being able to survive past 6 or so months, I was being honest about being a teacher. If it came down to it, we would change our lifestyle to make it work on whatever income I bring in through my teaching and from whatever job he could find if he couldn't find one in his field.

I am sorry my response last night wasn't intelligent enough for you. I am more clear-headed today and can write more of what I really wanted to say. I admit there was no way you could have known that was about all I could muster to say after a day of taking 140 seniors on their senior trip and being in the sun and on a school bus all day.

I appreciated the original discussion and thought it was great. Personally, I don't want to think about divorce. I want to believe, because in my heart of hearts and clearly in my head, my husband and I have a strong relationship, neither one of us would stray, and we would try to work things out and honor our commitment to each other. I do understand what you said, and thanks for taking the time to say it all. Smile

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