Interesting story

butterflygrooves · May 2011

Came across this gender story, pretty interesting.

butterflygrooves · May 2011

themommymonster:

I literally just read this.

I am still trying to form my opinion. I think they are crazy.

Crazy, maybe. I think they are a bit extreme but I can understand where they are coming from and why they are doing what they are doing.

butterflygrooves · May 2011

themommymonster:
butterflygrooves:
themommymonster:

I literally just read this.

I am still trying to form my opinion. I think they are crazy.

Crazy, maybe. I think they are a bit extreme but I can understand where they are coming from and why they are doing what they are doing.

I do not necessarily agree with performing social experiments on your kids. C is a boy, but if he wants to play with bolls or barbies he can. He plays with cars, trucks and trains because he likes them. He watches boy and girl movies/shows.

You and I have the same way of being neutral with our kids which is what I think they were intending to do but went too far with it. My girls have trucks and toy soldiers and "boy toys" but I would never go so far as to conceal the gender of a child to see what happens.

Kershnic · May 2011

I agree that it is an interesting story. There's a lot of subconcious pressure to do boy or girl things, and I'm sure they're getting interesting reactions. They seem like overall loving caring parents, so I suspect the child will be fine even if s/he eventually has a reaction to this.

That said, I think it is parents' job to teach their child how to navigate in the world we live in and guide their child in developing a self-identity. We live in a highly gendered world and you can't teach a child to navigate that by pretending it doesn't effect him/her. I believe that helping your child understand gender, including recognizing how their own gender does and doesn't effect their life, is better than attempting to provide a blank slate. We have seen that ignoring race/class/gender/etc. does not get rid of it.

BostonGayGal · May 2011

The Baby X book they reference is fascinating.

I think the five year old's struggle is a very natural one (more natural than the false dual gender roles we impose upon children) and relate to it as a child who felt 'different' at a very young age. I don't agree with their educational decision of un-schooling and think that my be a big piece of the son's difficulty announcing that he is a boy in social situations.

I am more annoyed by the silly over-reaction to the story than by the story itself. I find people's preoccupation with gender roles beyond sick. The difference in how we treat babies and talk to toddlers of different genders is repulsive. Gender expression is NOT something we are automatically born into, not something that should be imposed by parents, and there is a range, not just the two. (That being said, I won't be hiding my child's sex). But their gender expression is something for them to discover, not me to force.

BostonGayGal · May 2011

"C is a boy, but if he wants to play with bolls or barbies he can. He plays with cars, trucks and trains because he likes them. He watches boy and girl movies/shows."

"You and I have the same way of being neutral with our kids which is what I think they were intending to do but went too far with it. My girls have trucks and toy soldiers and "boy toys" but I would never go so far as to conceal the gender of a child to see what happens."

Sure, you can encourage it, but when every relative/doctor/care taker/ teacher treats them along strict and false dual gender roles, how free is your child to discover their own gender expression really?

I find myself the odd one out in how I am reading this article and all of the responses to it. For me, it is bringing back the intense feelings of my struggle with gender expression as a child, memories of 'which box that doesn't fit should I choose.'

People are saying they get it, but in reading the responses to this article all over the boards I just feel so sad and without hope because no one seems to have the vocabulary, much less the understanding or willingness to really consider the implications of the questions about gender expression that the couple poses.

2moms2twins · May 2011

yes, I have issues with this story and i think it stems from the issues i had growing up also. I agree with it to an extent but also disagree... I dunno. I guess I am still trying to formulate my own opinion also. I wanted to discuss after I read it to Melanie but she was too busy working and then I lost my thought bubble.

There is a difference between sex and gender as far as i am concerned.. and most dont get that ... I grew up in the FEME mold and lived like my parents wanted pretty in pink and makeup and cutesy- but I was also the son my dad never had and loved to change the car oil with him... and when i was finally able to chop my hair off at 18 and dress as I pleased well ... It was wonderful and i felt like my self finally ! My kids will play with dolls or trucks wear tu-tu with cowboy boots is they choose... they will always know that no matter what we will always love them and they they should never be afraid to express themseves. ( sorry that might have gotten tagenty and off track )

I might re read article tonight to just re think ... It kind of threw me in to a tizzy not good or bad but just sits funky with me certainly hit a nerve! But being a butch woman with trans issues its quite easy for things like this to bother me or make me think extra hard!

- J

Kershnic · May 2011

BostonGayGal:

Sure, you can encourage it, but when every relative/doctor/care taker/ teacher treats them along strict and false dual gender roles, how free is your child to discover their own gender expression really?

I find myself the odd one out in how I am reading this article and all of the responses to it. For me, it is bringing back the intense feelings of my struggle with gender expression as a child, memories of 'which box that doesn't fit should I choose.'

People are saying they get it, but in reading the responses to this article all over the boards I just feel so sad and without hope because no one seems to have the vocabulary, much less the understanding or willingness to really consider the implications of the questions about gender expression that the couple poses.

I think the couple poses interesting questions but an extreme answer. And in reality I think that by refusing to discuss whether the child is male or female, sex/gender is going to become an even bigger issue than it would have been otherwise.

BostonGayGal · May 2011

I think part of the problem is that the article is short and written with an obvious slant against the parents' decision. I agree completely that the parents are wonky, but the questions their decisions pose are worth a lot more consideration than they are getting on these boards.

Two*True · May 2011

BostonGayGal:
I think part of the problem is that the article is short and written with an obvious slant against the parents' decision. I agree completely that the parents are wonky, but the questions their decisions pose are worth a lot more consideration than they are getting on these boards.

I agree, but these are Bump/Nest boards we are talking about. Expect for a few rare boards most people would rather have a three page thread about the dangers of feta cheese when pregnant (remember that one?) than society's gendering of children.

norika33 · May 2011

BostonGayGal:

The difference in how we treat babies and talk to toddlers of different genders is repulsive. Gender expression is NOT something we are automatically born into, not something that should be imposed by parents, and there is a range, not just the two. (That being said, I won't be hiding my child's sex). But their gender expression is something for them to discover, not me to force.

This. And seeing it as a live experiment with one boy and one girl, and how they (IL, general public, etc) treat my son differently than my daughter- makes me want to throw up.

madisonpeas · May 2011

IMO keeping the sex concealed is preventing gendered ways of treating the baby/child. The parents seem to understand that the sex of a person results in gendered treatment. In other words, they get that sex does not equal gender, yet they know most people will conflate the two. We know the sex of our baby, but are not telling people, which drives them crazy. Someone the other day asked if we had a specific animal theme...that this might give them a hint. You know, like all elephants are boys and all kittens are girls....har har har. Anyway...much of society interprets sex as guiding gender, even if they might not explain it that way. As a person whose gender expression IS NOT the same as how I was raised, I know what a struggle this is. I hear you, Jay.

MamaAndMommy · May 2011

Fascinating! I have to say I've been a little tempted to at least leave the sex out of the birth announcement. Why does this seem to be the one thing that matters mos to everyonet? I've been shocked at how many people within the queer community, even, hear that we're pregnant and immediately want to know "if it's a boy or a girl." <shakes head>

We're currently keeping baby's sex a secret until birth. We'll probably bow to social pressure, but I kind of love the idea of keeping it a bit longer.

JoySeattle · May 2011

I read about this family, in a couple different stories, one more nuanced than the other. As someone with degrees in women/feminist studies and cultural studies, there are many interesting aspects about this family's choice and how it plays out.

When I teach childbirth education classes, try to model language around the differences between sex and gender (since it almost always comes up) but I feel that most people don't get the difference because they're often conflated.

Personally, we don't plan to find out the sex prenatally for any babies we have, but we do have gendered names picked out. We will have the same nursery/children's room decor regardless of gender and encourage our children to play with a variety of items/clothing/activities regardless of their sex or gender. I'm perfectly fine with raising a child of ambiguous sex or having a trans child, but I wouldn't try to use the blank slate method this family is using.

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