Parenting after 35
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Opening a gigantic can of worms...
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I found this article at the LA Times: https://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-my-turn-infertility-20110425,0,470341.story?track=rss
I certainly would never ask about this on an IF board or the over 35 board, but I've got to ask. Why is there such a need for IFers to dictate how people communicate to them? In a perfect world everyone would know how to say the right thing and avoid sticking their foot in their mouth, but the world is far from perfect.
That said, I have MS - something far worse than IF IMO - and it has never occurred to me to explain, or even wish, for people to speak about my disease in a certain way.
I don't get it. Can someone explain to me please? Or flame away if you feel the need to.
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Re: Opening a gigantic can of worms...
I read this as just one person's opinion and desires. I think it's meant to be educational. I don't find anything that bothers me about it, but also nothing that is particularly interesting or exciting.
No flames - I read it a bit differently. Less of a dictation and more of a "helpful suggestions" thing. Hearing "just relax"or "if it's meant to be" just makes me want to put red-hot rusty pokers in my ears and my struggles to get pregnant are just a blip of nothing compared with what some couples go through.
It has been my experience (and experiences recounted by others) that many friends really know what to say but they really want to offer comfort and hope. Getting pregnant is so natural and something that is just expected to happen with no problems. Seems hard for some people to wrap their minds around the fact that there is a real disease preventing it so they don't regard it that way. I doubt that anyone would suggest that a person "relax" their way to being cancer-free or suggest that reversing progressive retinal degeneration will happen "if it's meant to be". It sucks to have the threat to or death of a dream so flippantly dismissed by people who care about you because they just don't get it.
I toooootally get how people can become frustrated by well-meaning friends and family making ill-informed comments. I know several people who have suffered IF and, despite generally having a gift for sticking my foot in my mouth, have never said any of the offending quotes in the article.
I guess what I'm getting at is I've seen many articles about IF and the comments from IFers tend to be scathing, or at least bitter, about how non-IFers relate to them. That's what I don't get. Of course people who never had to worry about IF don't get it. Why would they?
Am I making any sense? Am I horrible?
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Not horrible and making sense - but you're right in that we're bringing our own personal life experiences to the discussion. It's interesting to hear your take on it. Glad you opened the can of worms :-)
I guess that all people assume they are capable of reproduction. Until you find out you aren't or it's going to be hard. Others feel at complete liberty to make comments and assumptions about it and then say these things out loud. The comments would suggest that they just don't take it seriously.
It's ridiculous, if you think of it. When would they feel so free to comment about anything else of a personal nature or something to do with another persons body when it is beyond their control? Imagine if someone came up to you at a family reunion or a work party and said, "Why are you riding that little cart around the mall? Oh, you have MS? You just need to relax. You have MS because you're trying too hard to walk and get around normally. You know, my cousins friends wifes neighbor took super doses of vitamin C and her MS was cured."
First, you would probably think that this a-hole has no idea what they're talking about. Then you might feel a bit defensive about the suggestion that you brought this on yourself. Finally, there might be a healthy helping of resentment that your condition isn't taken seriously because to you, this is really serious.
It is IF awareness week (or month) so that's why it's all out there now. I think I just know about the frustration from the women I've met on these boards. If anyone bothered to ask a person who was blind, deaf, paralyzed, whatever what they wish people would or wouldn't say to them, I'll bet you'd get an earful. It's interesting that most people don't ask about a physical disability (or do they?) and don't offer diagnose/suggestions/philosophical explanations for people with a disease like cancer. But IF? It's like the floodgates are let freely open.
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This. I didn't get offended by it and it's just more of the same thing. It seems that more and more of these kind of articles are in the media these days. I personally know a few couples that went through IF, so there's def. more awareness about it nowadays.
This article didn't offend me either, but I am IF. I don't go around telling people how I want them to speak to me, but I really kept our struggles between DH and me because I know how insensitive people can be. I know they are well-meaning, but when someone told me that I should just do IVF when she got pg naturally on her first try, I lost it. It's very personal. It hurts like hell to have someone tell you that there are so many options out there when she will never have to explore them. I felt robbed of something that should be so natural and so blissful and shouldn't have to cost a fortune to only maybe work.
I can't compare my experience to your experience in any way. I know next to nothing about MS. I am sure it is horrible. I could research it and become an "expert", but I would never have the experience of being in your shoes. I would hope that I would never say anything ignorant or rude that would offend you, and I can honestly say that throughout my IF journey, no one on these boards has ever offended me. Again, I don't go around asking people to talk about my situation in a certain way, and I do have a reasonably tough skin. Now, if anyone makes offensive comments about my son that's a whole different story!
And I have to say I don't know where I was headed with this thread. I have a cousin who TTC for 5 years before finally adopting her sweet baby last year. DH has a cousin who TTC for more than 10 years before finally getting a family. I always tried to tread lightly, offering up apologies and a shoulder to cry on, but that's all since I'm more than willing to admit I'm a moron who has no idea what they're going through.
I'm not trying too say "I'm awesome because I didn't suggest getting drunk on vacation" would result in a baby, I just reckon that there are so many people that DO suggest that that it has something to do with more than the empathy Monica spoke of being lacking.
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I am IF, too. What Indiana said above is exactly what I would say. I was unexplained IF and basically only a few family members knew about our issues. I found support from the IF Board and was never offended by anyone or anything they said. I do think my IF situation made me more aware of people and their struggles whatever they may be.
I too went through 5 years of IF. I dont' read that article as "this is how to speak to someone w/ IF" either. I see it as an informational piece.
BUT - having been on many IF boards over the years, there are women who really do seem to want to dictate how people talk to them. Honestly, I've always kind of rolled my eyes at that. IF is like many other diseases out there - until you experience it yourself or know someone close to you who has dealt with it, most people just can't "understand" it and don't know enough about it to know what to say or not to say.
This is just another example of how people see the world very much through their own eyes and it's hard to step back from that.
But I do have to say this - w/ IF, the hardest part about it is that children are everywhere and when most people you know had no problems getting PG - the assumption that it should be 'easy' and the lack of empathy can be amazing. I think it's almost easier to be empathetic about something you know nothing about than something that was easy for you but not for someone else.
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We had IF, and it can be heartbreaking and emotional--and very personal. While I don't think that someone with IF should "dictate" how people speak to them (agree with you, in a perfect world people would know how to be appropriate!), I know that insensitive comments can be really awful. It's also kind of like parenting--until you go through it, you don't really *know* what it's like. So I don't think it's up to me (or anyone else) to judge how bad my situation/problem/condition is compared to someone else's.
I'm right there with ECB--when almost everyone you know is able to get pg naturally, it's like your body is betraying you--really hard to deal with.
ditto what all the other IF'ers said.
but just to play devil's advocate.. if the article WAS dictating how people should speak to IF couples --- why not? Considering that the PC crap in this nation is out of control... and you look like a jerk for saying certain things that don't mean any harm- why not dictate the PC terms and phrases to say to IF people?
again- i'm not agreeing with that... but if it's OK to dictate what we call someone b/c of their skin color... why not dictate other things that might be offensive if not said properly?
IF sucks and everyone deals with it differently. I was very open about it... and i was also very fortunate and got pg fairly easily with assistance.... i have friends who waited years and years for a baby... and a brother/SIL who never could have one.... it's hard on everyone. It sucks that some people don't understand it better, but that's humans.
I was very open with our struggles (as I have been with other challenges in my life, like depression and ADHD). The thing, for me, with infertility, is that I know that there is/was something *medically* wrong with me that prevented me from getting pregnant on my own, but I still felt like I was failing my DH. So, add well meaning or clueless comments to how I already felt, it was frustrating. Plus, folks gloss over how difficult IF is. As the author included well meaning people say "just adopt", "just relax", "just do IVF". With IF, one JUST doesn't do anything. I lived my life in two week increments, waiting to ovulate, waiting to test. We couldn't go on vacation, we were saving money in case we had to pay for IVF (which we did). And, for some reason, folks think it's their business to comment or make suggestions regarding TTC.
I was lucky, it "only" took us two years and one IVF cycle to get LO. But now I am dealing with people asking me when we are going to have another one. I keep reminding myself that I don't have to share my medical history and personal experience to try to convince them.
I think the purpose of the article is to provide awareness and to show a few easy ways to keep from unintentionally hurting someone experiencing IF. Honestly, things can relate to many other diagnosis as well, IMO.
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No offense taken here. I like conversations like this because it gives a chance for explanation... Honestly, if I could have dictated what people said to me and how they said it, I would have in a heartbeat!
I have been pretty open with the struggles it took to have L., but it wasn't by choice. It is very hard to live in a family centric state (Utah) to be mature, married and childless for 16 years. The volume of comments I received on an on-going basis would blow most people away.
When you walk down the street, when you first meet people or when you see family or friends you haven't seen in a while- what is usually the first couple things they ask you? How are you doing, what have you been up to, are you married and do you have any kids!
Imagine being reminded *every* single time you meet someone of your deficiencies. Imagine how it feels to have it constantly brought up that you are not 'whole'. With most other medical issues and ailments the reminders are internal- you see someone healthy and think about the fact that you have an issue. Usually you have the option of whether you want to divulge your condition, because with most ailments people don't ask you straight out. With IF, other people bring it to your attention, and they do it regularly and without any sense of shame.
Fertility is such a deeply personal thing, but it is tied to a very public thing (family). As a woman, I felt that the most basic part of me was broken. I felt that maybe this was God's way of saying I wasn't a good enough person to have children. I felt that the unique divinity given to women to allow them to create life was not given to me. And I felt shame and guilt and just bad.
Once people did know, then they would feel the need to either diagnose me or treat me. "Well, your problem is just...." "All you need to do is just..." "My cousins-great-aunts-neighbor just did xyz and got pregnant the next day..." After 16 years of on and off treatment I've heard every old wives tale you can come up with, thank you very much!
So not only did I have my own guilt and issues to work through, but since everyone else seemed so intent on fixing me, then they must all think I'm broken too!
Take all of that mess, mix in well meaning friends and loved ones constantly reminding you, add a dash of hormones (thanks to all the treatments you are undergoing), the fact that it is near impossible to go anywhere and not see either a cute pregnant woman or children, the number of people you know who get knocked up 'accidentally', the number of news stories of violence against children (why are THEY allowed to have kids and I'm not???) and I'm really surprised that there are not IF related mental hospitals!
Part of the issue too is how things compound. This may be the first time Aunt Sally has ever said anything to me about IF, but it's the 57th time this month that I've been told to "just relax" and it will happen.
The worst, for me, was that this was all coming from people who love me and sincerely desired our success. An obnoxious comment is easier to ignore from a stranger. When it is coming from someone you love it is much more personal. And that is why I think there are so many articles like the one you listed. These articles are not aimed at Joe Schmo general public- they are the result of a dozen people who tell you "I wish I knew what to say or do to make it better for you."
Really, I guess the bottom line is this- if the person struggling with IF is someone you love, wouldn't you want to say or do what will help them feel better? If you love them, wouldn't it be alright to let them dictate what the best response for the situation is? And if the person struggling with IF is not someone you love or care about, then why are you becoming involved in their very personal struggles?
Does that make sense?
Hi! I understand your questions. As someone who has been through IF and pregnancy loss, I think her statements of suggestion are perfect. I agree with you that every ailment or illness can cause people to insert foot; however, I argue that with infertility most people feel a compelling need to fix it. Diabetes, MS, cancer, HIV -- those things can't be fixed and most people refrain from offering unsolicited advice, no? They simply don't know much about it most of the time. But conception? Everyone claims to be a guru!!!
My general experience with infertility and pregnancy loss was that suddenly all boundaries and filters disappeared for people and they seemed to quickly develop diarrhea of the mouth. I think the author is speaking to that. I admire her courage to speak up. Most of us just suffer in silence until we heal.
Gone but never forgotten, our three angel babies Jude, Mary and Gerard