Am I in denial? (preschool vent - long)

ScoobyM · April 2011

Please tell me if I am just being one of those parents who can't see their child's problems clearly. Ellie has been having problems at preschool lately (she goes 2x a week). About 2 months ago she started giving her teacher trouble, not listening to directions and charmingly, screaming at the top of her lungs when the teacher tells her no or otherwise directs her (mainly, to lay quietly at naptime).

I completely understand her behavior is unacceptable and disruptive to the other kids. I have offered to pick her up early before naptime, but her teacher doesn't want to do this because she doesn't want Ellie to get the wrong lesson, that she doesn't have to do as she is told. So I am trying to work with her and we are collaborating about how to address this behavior and DH and I are reinforcing it at home all the time. And at home I feel like she is showing a lot of improvement in her behavior - DH has noticed it too as has our nanny.

So here is my vent - today, at drop off the teacher told DH that she thinks we should pick Ellie up before naptime on Thursday because she (the teacher) has to leave early and there will be a sub in the classroom. This really ticks me off. It is making me feel like my daughter is some sort of problem child, a special case, and the poor sub shouldn't have to deal with her. I am so tired of this whole nap issue being such a huge deal. The reality is, Ellie hasn't napped consistently since she was 2 or maybe even before that, and she has never napped at school. She doesn't wake up in the morning till almost 8 and at home, her quiet playtime is around 2, which is when her naptime was on those rare occasions she actually did fall asleep. At school, naptime is at 12:30 - she has only been up for 4.5 hours and she ISN'T TIRED! How can you expect an energetic 3 year old to lay quietly for 45 minutes when she isn't tired - am I the only one who thinks that is unreasonable? And her teacher won't remove her from the classroom during naptime because she feels that is letting Ellie get her way, so instead they fight this battle each week and then I get a phone call talking to me about how I can discipline her at home better so she'll listen to her teacher.

I want to work with the teacher to show that I am supportive of her efforts and to help Ellie learn how to behave, but I do not like feeling as though Ellie is some sort of special problem. I know screaming is really bad but surely she isn't the only 3 year old who vents her frustration and anger that way? And given her schedule, is it that big a deal to have her leave the room or let me pick her up early to avoid the whole problem? Or am I really just denying the reality that I have a troublemaker for a kid and I'm not doing my job as a parent to discipline her better?

I'm sorry this is so long but this has been building up for a few weeks now and I am just really frustrated and sick of questioning my own parenting - I need some objective input on the situation. Thanks in advance if you made it through this whole thing and have some input!

vanverth · April 2011

I think that she is sending Ellie home early so that she does not lose consistency. The sub might let her get up and roam around and that would set back any achievement they have made a school.

I know you have a routine but have you thought about waking her up earlier in the morning and then she might be tired when 12:30 rolls around?

itsmexine · April 2011

First of all according to your ticker Ellie is 3 today so happy birthday little girl.

I don't think this is a discipline issue at all. I think it is a schedule issue. It is hard to switch schedules back and forth from what happens at home to what happens at preschool. As pp mentioned I'd try shifting her schedule and try getting her up a little earlier so the schedules are more similar if not the same.

I would also explore ideas with the teacher about activities during quiet time. If she doesn't want to take a nap can she sit with some books or color or do some sort of other quiet activity on her mat? I do think it is unrealistic to think a 3 yr old will just lay quietly for 45 minutes if they don't have something to occupy them.

stever · April 2011

I agree that she needs to learn to do as she's told and to lay quietly even if she doesn't want to sleep. I also think that the teacher might want to send her home so that she doesn't lose consistency. All that said, she's 3. It sounds like they're making an awfully big deal about a toddler acting like a toddler.

I'd probably pick her up on Thurs, but then sit down and have a more in depth convo with the teacher to get a better feel for how she feels about Ellie's behavior and what she wants to do to help her.

ateytelb · April 2011

What's her bedtime at night? Since she hasn't been napping in the afternoon I am not sure she would start napping if you move her bedtime/waking up in the morning time. I don't see how disciplining will make her fall asleep. Jason had a problem with napping in school in the beginning too, but I think the fact that he goes there full-time helped him adjust relatively fast. Maybe this type of day-care/preschool is not working for Ellie at this point. Have you considered a half-a-day preschool since you have a nanny anyway?

ScoobyM · April 2011

Thanks to everyone for reading my novel of a post and offering your input! You're making me feel a little better that she is not destined to be a permanent resident of the principal's office down the road. I swear, I have no perspective on what is "normal" 3 year old behavior and what is a sign we need special counseling. For better or worse, each discussion with her teacher leaves me feeling as though I've failed and I'm the cause of all this drama because I'm such a weak parent - I guess that means this is really my issue, not Ellie's.

Anyway - to answer some of the questions, the teacher will give her a book to read but only after she lays quietly for 45 min or so. I suppose I could wake her up earlier but that will disrupt MY sleep which I'm not excited about. DH and I are night owls and late risers and luckily our kids seem to be the same, and I really don't want to mess with that if I don't have to. I think if she were going to face the same issue again next year I might look for a different school, but next year she will be in the 3 year old class and they don't take naps, so we'll give it another try next year and see how it goes. And for now I suppose we'll stick it out and keep working on helping her listen better at school and I'll try to be less sensitive to her teacher's suggestions.

Pesky · April 2011

Can you start rolling her naptime/quiet time back a bit so it is more like 1:30 or 1 pm, closer to the school time? The consistency of schedules might help too. Unfortunately a lot of kids still nap at this time and realize the teacher doesn't want to punish the rest of the class who is trying to nap because your DD still wants to play. Her request could be not just making it easier for the sub, but perhaps easier on your DD if she is unsure of the sub's reaction to your DD. I'd just shrug and go with it.

srhartline · April 2011

This is what worked for us with my 2nd daughter-a different school with a 1/2 day program. If I left her in the same school that I sent my first daughter she would have a nap which then made her not tired for bed until after 1 am!

The first school was great don't get me wrong. During their quiet time after lunch they played videos. The kids could watch or sleep, but the lights would be turned off and they could not get up from their mats. My other 3 kids went there and I had no problem--I just could not stay awake until 1 am and then take care of a newborn all day long too.

LyndaCarter · April 2011

If she really doesn't need a nap, can she go to another room with other kids who aren't napping? Maybe an older class of kids?

We've started a listening chart at home. DD#1 gets a sticker for each day she listens to us and her teachers without screaming, hitting, fighting, saying no, etc. When she gets 7 stickers she gets a new toy/book/treat. It has really worked to remind her of the chart so she continues to listen without trouble.

We have adjusted our weekend schedule to match the weekday schedule at our house so that we avoid the nap trouble. One of us gets up on Saturday with DD#1 and watches a movie until DD#2 gets up with the other one. We trade on Sunday so we each get a sleep-in day. Then DD#1 is down for her nap no later than 1:00pm on those days as well.

KGsky · April 2011

Even though some of this is normal toddler behavior, there is a certain degree of conformity that starts happening around this age. She should be taking cues from the environment and other kids around her that it is naptime/quiet time, not time to scream and yell and run around the room. My daughter is in an all-day preschool, and many of the kids don't nap, but they do lay quietly or engage in some quiet activity like reading.

Expressing disagreement and being uncooperative is normal at 3. Being out of control and basically tantruming (every time) is not. I'm just wondering: she's improving at home, so are you talking to her about her behavior at school and telling her that it's not OK? I don't really have concrete answers for you, but I know when DD was having accidents, we'd talk every day about the importance of telling her teachers when she had to go and going when she felt the need before we left the house. It really stuck with her and they tell us that she will always tell them "what mommy said" and that she really understands what's important to mommy. Maybe something similar about naptime could help?

gimmietimmies · April 2011

Yeah, not napping at 3 isn't unusual. K rarely does and E stopped napping at 2 (she was awful, up at 6 and asleep at 10-11). Both were at a dayhome, but she still had them do quiet time. It didn't have to be sleeping, but they had to do a quiet activity (like reading or coloring) so they didn't disturb the other kids. E took a while to learn that she needed to be quiet (she still doesn't stop talking), but she managed to learn that it was expected (eventually). I don't know if it would work in a daycare, but when E wasn't compliant, she was assigned chores when there were fun activities. Upside is she actually doesn't mind helping out in the house and she will be first to volunteer here so we don't miss the fun stuff.

ScoobyM · April 2011

Unfortunately the teacher will not let her go to another room or engage in another quiet activity unless she lays quietly first. She told me that she needs Ellie to be quiet until the other kids are asleep and then for about 10-15 minutes afterward, which works out to about 45 minutes. I'm certain if she had a book she would sit quietly and read, she does this at home all the time, but that is not the way it works in her classroom.

We do reinforce the teacher's rules and the importance of listening to her teacher and laying quietly at naptime on a daily basis and when she does well at school we make a huge deal of it and she gets a treat or a reward. And she gets a consequence when she is not a good listener - she has to go to her room as soon as she gets home and lay quietly on her bed, with no books or toys, for at least 30 minutes. This was something we worked out with her teacher so that she can also remind Ellie of the consequence if Ellie has trouble laying quietly. She's only had to do it once so far and it was not pleasant for either of us, but yesterday she actually slept at school for the first time in months and she was a very good listener, per the teacher's report card.

In retrospect, I think I should have taken more seriously the difference in the schedule at this school from our home schedule. I am not willing to change our home routine, it would require pretty big changes for all of us and I'm happy with our current schedule and routine at home, so I think if I had to do it again I'd probably look for a school that is a little closer to how we do things at home. We only have a couple months left, so we will ride it out and hopefully next year will be better since the nap will be gone and she will have learned a lesson from all this (as will I).

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