I think I'm going to have to 'ferberize'

Ananke · February 2011

I just can't take the sleep issues anymore. I've tried everything short of a CIO approach, and if anything, DS's sleep has only gotten worse, waking every 30-45 minutes the last few nights. I'm just at a loss and by 11pm each night I'm a crying mess because he's usually already woken 4 or 5 (or more) times. My marriage is suffering, I have virtually no time to clean or spend by myself, and I feel like my life for the last 2+ months hs been consumed by trying to get him to sleep. DS has his 6 month appt in about a week, so I'm going to talk to them to make sure there isn't a medical cause for all his wakings before jumping into Ferber. If anyone has any last ditch efforts for me to try, I'm all ears. I really, really don't want to go with even a modified version, but I simply can't keep living like I am. Iknow everything is temporary, but on only 2-3 hours of broken sleep, I can't be a good mother or wife, and doing things like driving becomes dangerous. I also have started posting really biitchy things on TB, and I'm not normally a biitchy person.

Ugh, anyway, thanks for letting me vent and ramble.

triquetra123 · February 2011

You said you've tried everything short of CIO. What all have you tried?

LouiseB2001 · February 2011

I remember DD being that age and very similar. She would wake up 4 times before I even got to bed. I thought it would never get better and I just took it one day at a time, very very tired. Are you bed-sharing? That helped us so I could just feed DD when she woke up and she would calm down. Still some nights were very messy with her waking up crying all the time but then DH would take her for a 'walk' around the apartment and rock her back to sleep. I know it is hard, but it does get better.

Regarding Ferber you should know several things: Ferber and most other CIO methods do not recommend doing anything before at least 6 months. Ferber has also been very misunderstood and he suggests several other ways of dealing with sleep problems than CIO, in fact there is a really good introduction to the 2nd edition on Amazon (available through preview 'look inside the book'). Before even thinking of letting your baby cry you should make sure you have read up on these approaches. I have read 'Healthy sleep habits, happy child' (and I hated it) which does describe some CIO methods and without being explicit the Sleep Lady also have similar suggestions but with the parent staying in the room to begin with. I liked her approach and we are following some of this now so I can recommend the book. Consistency is key and unless you go by a 'system' you are more likely to confuse your DS than help him learn to sleep.

Hang in there mama, it gets better. Ask DH to help out a bit more and get a babysitter/mother's helper for tough times.

Ananke · February 2011

LouiseB2001:
I remember DD being that age and very similar. She would wake up 4 times before I even got to bed. I thought it would never get better and I just took it one day at a time, very very tired. Are you bed-sharing? That helped us so I could just feed DD when she woke up and she would calm down. Still some nights were very messy with her waking up crying all the time but then DH would take her for a 'walk' around the apartment and rock her back to sleep. I know it is hard, but it does get better.
Regarding Ferber you should know several things: Ferber and most other CIO methods do not recommend doing anything before at least 6 months. Ferber has also been very misunderstood and he suggests several other ways of dealing with sleep problems than CIO, in fact there is a really good introduction to the 2nd edition on Amazon (available through preview 'look inside the book'). Before even thinking of letting your baby cry you should make sure you have read up on these approaches. I have read 'Healthy sleep habits, happy child' (and I hated it) which does describe some CIO methods and without being explicit the Sleep Lady also have similar suggestions but with the parent staying in the room to begin with. I liked her approach and we are following some of this now so I can recommend the book. Consistency is key and unless you go by a 'system' you are more likely to confuse your DS than help him learn to sleep.
Hang in there mama, it gets better. Ask DH to help out a bit more and get a babysitter/mother's helper for tough times.

Thanks for all this. I do have Ferber's book, and have read a good portion of it already, and I've tried some of his suggestions already, but haven't seen any improvement yet. I tried methods from NCSS also, but again, no such luck, although DS loves his lovey so much I think he stays awake sometimes to play with it. I've tried rocking, not rocking, drowsy but awake, putting him down at various times during his sleep cycle, establishing routines, nursing to sleep, not nursing to sleep, bedsharing, cosleeping just in the same room, not being in the same room, earlier/later bedtimes, bath, massage, and even tummy sleeping (he can roll over to his back), and I'm sure some other things I'm not thinking of - my mind isn't very clear at the moment.

The only thing that is netting me any sleep at the moment is bedsharing during the early morning hours. We can't bring DS into our bedroom (too many animals, and we can't kick them out of our room since it's the largest room in the house), so I bring him into a spare bed that's in his room at around 3am. Even then, we both sleep fitfully. I'd honestly prefer to spend the entire night in DS's room bedsharing, but even spending part of the night in there is causing a rift in my marriage. DH is not okay with it and thinks I coddle DS too much as it is, and the longer the sleep issues go on, the more he's pushing to just let him cry (he wanted to try Ferber a month ago, but found out that DS should be at least 6 months, so he agreed to wait at least until then). The last time I said no, I won't, he said "fine, do it your way, but I don't want to hear about it anymore", so any support from him is unlikely (this is a whole other issue we won't get into, so for the purpose of this, we'll just assume I do all nighttime parenting). I keep telling myself it'll get better on it's own, but ffs, it's been 2 months of hourly waking and 30 minute naps.

I've been attributing the bad sleep to gas, teething, growth spurts, developmental leap, etc, but I question if I really think those things are causing it or if I'm ust making excuses for a bad habit that I've created. That's why I'm going to talk to the pedi (who is the most AP friendly Dr. in the area) before trying anything.

I may check out the Sleep Lady, I haven't heard much about her. I'd really like something a little gentler than Ferber, but hadn't really found much that I haven't already tried.

Allie30 · February 2011

I have both Ferber and Weissbluth (Healthy Sleep Habits) AND the No-Cry (dude, and Babywise, but you can FORGET IT) and I haven't gotten much help from any of them. Ferber, Weissbluth,a dn Babywise don't have ANYTHING to say about infants who do not sleep unless you put them down drowsy. They all seem to think they'll go to sleep "eventually."

My baby won't. I've only tried to put her down "drowsy" for naps, but she doesn't go to sleep. At all. For hours. I've tried "in room extiniction" in which I've stood above her, touching her. for HOURS. She sleeps fine once I nurse or rock her to sleep, then sneak her in the crib, but that's all.And if I try regular extinction. leaving hte room, then she doesn't calm down if I come back in. The books all seem to think if you come in, your baby will stop crying. Nope. She doesn't stop if I come in, she doesn't stop if I touch her, she doesn't even stop if I pick her up. IF she starts crying in her crib, only a big old soothing bouncing routine or nursing will stop my baby from crying.

Ferber is mostly trying to solve the problems of older babies and children who have problems. No one can really help you with an infant. All the books say nothing about babies younger than 4-6 months and it's clear to me my almost five month old is NOT READY for any of that. It means we don't usually put her to sleep until 9:30 or 10 most nights, but when we do put her down, she stays for hours. For instance, I'm writing this right now to distract myself from my boobs, which are exploding because she's been asleep so long.

I know we're probably setting ourselves up for sleep problems in teh long run but what can I do? the way I see it, she's up either way -- either in her crib crying or with me and happy. no book can help me, or give me any solution other than "you can't do it for a few more months". And it drives me crazy there's like two pages on "putting them down drowsy" and no one seems to think that it won't work. They also all seem to think my baby will stop crying if I come in. she won't. She doesn't. it's ridiculous.

iris427 · February 2011

Have you read Sleeping Through The Night? I think the author's name is Jodi Mindell or something like that. It addresses sleep issues in younger babies as well as older babies and toddlers. It's the book we used for sleep training and it was immensely helpful. My daughter was still waking frequently every single night at 11 months. I met mothers whose kids were still doing that at 2 and 2.5 and I realized if I didn't do CIO, I'd probably be in the same boat and I just couldn't do it anymore.

Your sleep and sanity are important. You can't be a good mother if you are miserable and not dealing well with months of sleep deprivation. Like you, I felt exhausted all the time, my emotions were out of control, and I didn't have the patience to be a good mother. Doing CIO was one of the best parenting choices I ever made. I felt like a new person after my daughter started STTN and 1000 x better of a mother.

And my daughter is not traumatized. Her attachment to us has not been broken. She's a happy, well-rested kid with a mother who actually has the energy (well somewhat lol) to keep up with her and play with her.

GL.

MrsFoltz · February 2011

I just wanted to add that my LO was doing the exact same thing right before 6 months. We were doing BLW, starting at about 5.5 monhs, but he wasnt really eating much - just making a mess. At my 6 month appt my pedi said that he needed to be on 2 meals a day and that I could probably spread out my nursing sessions from 3 hours to 4 hours during the day, so that he would eat more at each feeding and learn that he could go longer between. Between those two things the night wakings have gotten much better- maybe up once or twice a night. I didin't love the idea of feeding him all this food (purees mostly so that he actually et some in his stomach) but I gotta tell you, he gobbles it up and was obviously hungry- he also weighed 20lbs at that appt so he's a big guy. Just something else to think about. GL!!

bh2720 · February 2011

It sounds like what you have been going through is really hard--I can't image dealing with a situation like that for so long. Kudos to you for not losing your mind :-)

The Ferber method is great and I really hope it works for you. Don't let anyone guilt you into not doing what you need to do for your family.

BelhurstBride · February 2011

Don't feel that you're making excuses or that you've created a bad habit. Lots of babies go through exactly the same thing; it's just their personality.

DD was the same way and I read all the books. With lots of perseverance NCSS was what made the difference, but it took months and months. As an immediate solution we brought her into bed with us full time. It was so much easier to just nurse that way. It didn't stop the frequent wakings, but it helped me to get a bit more sleep. DH started staying up later with her, and I went to bed earlier. That way I could get a few uninterrupted hours of sleep, after he came to bed (around midnight) I took over all wakings. DH then got up with her in the morning so I could catch another hour or two then. It helped with everyone's mood. Eventually we also started using her swing at night. It was the only way she'd sleep longer than 45 minutes without one of us right there.

About a month ago she did a 180 and now gives us 5-6 hours stretches, on her own, in her crib, on a regular basis. If nothing else don't forget that it's a phase and that this, too, shall pass.

erinkate23 · February 2011

If you're actually reading Ferber's book (the whole thing), you'll find that CIO is really only a very small portion of what he discusses for sleep. "Ferberizing" is not extinction "close the door and put in the earplugs" crying. It wouldn't work for us; DS gets hysterical and won't calm down, but I can see how it would work for a baby who needs to fuss themselves to sleep a little.

I am more concerned that you and your husband aren't seeing eye-to-eye on parenting. Forget the sleep stuff... your husband seems to honestly believe that you can "coddle" a 5 month old. From your tone, he wants you to "Toughen Up" his 5 month old newborn. Any form of sleep training where BOTH parents aren't 100% on board is going to cause more tension in your marriage, not less. If you feel like he's forcing you into doing this, stop and spend some time talking about your parenting philosophies.

I think you and your husband seriously need to talk about this whole "You're Coddling Him" thing. Research continues to show that you can't love a baby or hold a baby or "spoil" a baby. Regardless of what you choose to do to help the sleep problems, this is an underlying issue that you'll be dealing with on many different levels for his entire childhood.

https://healthland.time.com/2010/09/29/no-such-thing-as-too-much-love-spoiled-babies-grow-up-to-be-smarter-kinder-kids/

Ananke · February 2011

Thanks everyone! Your posts really mean a lot to me. After I posted last night, I pretty much got confirmation that his wakings aren't just a bad habit (at least not for the most part). He was up literally every 15 or 20 minutes screaming from gas pains. I was confused why he was so much worse last night, then saw my empty Starbucks latte bottle from yesterday. I've been dairy free for a couple weeks, and didn't even think about it when I drank the coffee yesterday.

So, I think it's obvious now that he has a milk protein allergy, and it can take up to 3 weeks to get it out of their system. Hopefully the couple mess ups I've had the last couple days ( ate some margarine with whey and gave him a small amount of older frozen BM) won't totally reset that time. I'm thinking of also just eliminating soy also since some babies who are sensitive to milk are also sensitive to soy.

erinkate: you are right that we don't see eye-to-eye on parenting. We thought we did, and then DS came and I totally softened up. We're working on it though, and I'm sure there will ned to be some major compromises over te next several years. Unfortunately, it's hard to get DH to look at the research. He'll research a new phone or video game for days, but for some reason doesn't take a ton of stock into parenting research. Maybe because so much of it is controversial.

Thanks again everyone. I was a at an extremely low point last night, but your responses helped a bunch. I'll definitely be waiting until DS feels better before attempting any sort of sleep training. Hopefully I won't be making this same post in another month or two!!

jen5-03 · February 2011

Glad you're going to give him more time. I will say that I do not believe in sleep habits at all until a kid is AT LEAST a year, and probably more like 2yo. Because my DD's sleep is nothing like it was when she was under 2. And those changing sleep "habits" (more like patterns) mean that most people who do sleep train find themselves re-training their baby multiple times.

One thing that might help you if your DH is willing, is for him to try soothing the baby in the evening. My deal with DH was that he would take all wakings before midnight and I would take them from midnight-6am, and he'd be back on duty after 6am until he had to get ready for work at 7am (I was not working at the time). Anyway, just having the evening off and being able to get a little bit of sleep in the morning really helped me. DH would often take DD on long walks in the morning so he got some exercise and the house would be quiet. All the little old ladies out on their morning walks would stop and chat with him too!

Lindsay7733 · February 2011

Ananke:
erinkate: you are right that we don't see eye-to-eye on parenting. We thought we did, and then DS came and I totally softened up. We're working on it though, and I'm sure there will ned to be some major compromises over te next several years. Unfortunately, it's hard to get DH to look at the research. He'll research a new phone or video game for days, but for some reason doesn't take a ton of stock into parenting research. Maybe because so much of it is controversial.

I am having the same exact issue with DH. It breaks my heart everyday. Hang in there and know you're not alone.

erbear · February 2011

you do what you need to do. We did Ferber around 6 months with Kate. She was up 10-12 times a night and a cranky, miserable, overtired wreck. She needed sleep. Within a few days, she was sleeping 12 hours straight and was a totally different kid when well-rested. It was hard but in the end, you have to do what your kid needs.

iris427 · February 2011

jen5/03:
Glad you're going to give him more time. I will say that I do not believe in sleep habits at all until a kid is AT LEAST a year, and probably more like 2yo. Because my DD's sleep is nothing like it was when she was under 2. And those changing sleep "habits" (more like patterns) mean that most people who do sleep train find themselves re-training their baby multiple times.

This may be true for your kid, but it's not for everyone. The way I was putting my daughter to sleep at night during the first year was having a direct impact on the amount of night wakings she was having. She absolutely had developed sleep habits within the first year, probably within the first 4-6 months. We sleep trained her at 11 months and have never had to do it again. She is 2.5 now and her nighttime sleep habits have not changed at all since the sleep training.

someflower6 · February 2011

mama-- you gotta do what you gotta do. one of the most important aspects of AP-- parenting in general-- is balance. you can't be an effective parent if you're so fatigued, you can't see straight!

i haven't done ferber but i am sure that done responsibly, it can be very effective. with that in mind, i do wonder if you'll have to "re-ferber" in the future. maybe, maybe not, depending on your kid. i just know that my LO has gone through periods of ridiculous, constant wake ups, followed by sttn, followed by random wakings, follwed by waking once or twice, followed by sttn, and so on and so forth. it seems between colds and teething and learning how to stand in her crib, there is always something to distrub her sleep.

good luck, hun. one way or another, you're little one WILL sleep!

jkkg317 · February 2011

I can't imagine not having DH supporting me on parenting views, he pretty much figures I do all the research I spend the most time with the baby, he does what I do, but he is a little lazy, doesn't want to lose sleep sort of deal. I'm sorry your going through that. Maybe someone could watch him for a few hours while you sleep, if there is no one, maybe call a daycare and see if they can watch him for an afternoon. I definitely think you getting some sleep will help sooo much and I hope you can find someone to help you. Whether you Ferber or not gl.

lanie30 · February 2011

Read the Ferber book. It really helped me understand the relationship between how a baby is put to sleep and the frequent wakings. When you do you may notice a few similarities. Its a great book on sleep in general.

I can completely relate to you and want to hug you right now. Jo woke up every half hour and its really really hard to talk to someone whose baby let them sleep more than 2 hours per night. You just want to scream " you don't get it."

I will say that I did some crying with Jo (I literally cried too) around 8 months, or just before and it saved me, my child and my marriage. She cried 7 minutes total (interrupted, I went in 2 x) and that was that. She slept for 2 hours or so and then started waking every hour. Then we did a bit more and she slept 2 hours at a time. Then she was down to 2 x per night and it felt like a holiday.

I felt whole again. The pain of exhaustion left my back and chest, and I liked being a mom again. I maintain that no one is attached when they are that exhausted. Being a good mom sometimes means looking at a difficult answer to a problem. For me that meant doing a bit of crying.

BEST thing I ever did. I wish I had not dismissed it so quickly when she was younger. I would have saved myself so much pain and saved my poor baby from being a red eyed screaming baby unable to sleep at all herself and without any coping methods. I look back at what I did to her before teaching her to sleep and feel far more guilty about that than 7 minutes of crying.

JoannaJes · February 2011

You need to get all of your medical issues straightened out before you even think about sleep training. It's quite possible that your LO is waking up from pain.

Milk protein allergy can cause frequent nightwakings in babies, and if you aren't keeping this under control, no amount on sleep training is going to help you.

Have you evaluated the possibility that your LO might have silent reflux as well? It sounds like even when you abstain from dairy, that the nightwakings persist.

DD has a milk protein allergy and reflux. She doesn't wake up at night screaming, but she is uncomfortable and likes to eat a lot to comfort herself. When we got her medical issues under control, she started sleeping much better.

joolz425 · February 2011

oh gosh your poor thing...you must be exhausted! i complain about being tired with 8 hours of broken sleep! don't know how you are able to function.

kelbrian · March 2011

I was in the same situation as you, and we finally broke down and Ferberized at six months.

Best decision we've ever made. She went from waking every hour to only waking once or twice a night to nurse, which I was fine with. She dropped that herself around a year.

The book itself has valuable information in it about sleep patterns and other such things. I would highly recommend reading it in its entirety.

We have the same bedtime routine now at 2.5 that we did at six months, and I think she thrives off of that. It helps her feel comfortable, relaxed. It helps her calm down.

She absolutely developed sleep habits before a year as the direct result of how I was putting her to bed, and I will not make the same mistakes the next time around.

I'm with Lanie - I feel worse about all of those sleepless nights and my red-eyed exhausted baby and red-eyed exhausted me than I do about the few minutes of crying she did.

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