Social Development is a Part of Neurology

susanmosley · February 2011

NOT a result of early "socialization."

The masses are hell bent right now on the importance of early socialization of children and getting them with peer groups sooner than later so that they do not fall behind in the social department.

When talking about normally developing children, early (and most important) social skills are acquired as a result of neurological growth and development, NOT imitating and modeling.

The social skills that ensure competency are much more complex than many understand. It begins with the development of theory of mind and perspective taking and understanding that others have different thoughts, experiences, and belief systems. Children learn to follow others eye gaze very early on, which in turn gives them insight to what the other person is thinking about. Humans develop the ability to analyze others' moves, actions, and gestures and (amazingly), adapt their behaviors/responses to stay in tune with the adult. At a young age, children can read other's motives and intentions - and not through verbal language. Children learn that they can manipulate others through their language/words and that others can do the same to them.

Preschools don't teach these skills. They expect children to enter school with the abilities developed or developing. Modeling doesn't teach these skills. Just as children don't learn to roll over at 3 months or pull up at 10 months via modeling and watching others, these required social skills are not typically taught...the exception is when you have a child with a social emotional difference.

Sure preschool programs give children a place to use these skills. And I could write a list a mile long of what preschool has to offer. But this idea that kids need to be "socialized" by 2 or 3 or they are screwed is out of control as the peer and adult modeling in these environments is not what is teaching these underlying developmental skills. Yes, they can remind to you say please and thank you and share with your friends, but those are the superficial, tip of the iceberg skills - not the core that is developed as a part of normal neurological growth.

That's it for my early morning rant. Thanks for letting me get it out. Debate as you like, I won't buy it (But I would love to hear it!)

EnglishMajor03 · February 2011

Amen!

Does anyone else understand the magnitude of having SM on this board beside me?! Truly a wealth of information.

babypuplove · February 2011

susanmosley:

NOT a result of early "socialization."

The masses are hell bent right now on the importance of early socialization of children and getting them with peer groups sooner than later so that they do not fall behind in the social department.

When talking about normally developing children, early (and most important) social skills are acquired as a result of neurological growth and development, NOT imitating and modeling.

The social skills that ensure competency are much more complex than many understand. It begins with the development of theory of mind and perspective taking and understanding that others have different thoughts, experiences, and belief systems. Children learn to follow others eye gaze very early on, which in turn gives them insight to what the other person is thinking about. Humans develop the ability to analyze others' moves, actions, and gestures and (amazingly), adapt their behaviors/responses to stay in tune with the adult. At a young age, children can read other's motives and intentions - and not through verbal language. Children learn that they can manipulate others through their language/words and that others can do the same to them.

Preschools don't teach these skills. They expect children to enter school with the abilities developed or developing. Modeling doesn't teach these skills. Just as children don't learn to roll over at 3 months or pull up at 10 months via modeling and watching others, these required social skills are not typically taught...the exception is when you have a child with a social emotional difference.

Sure preschool programs give children a place to use these skills. And I could write a list a mile long of what preschool has to offer. But this idea that kids need to be "socialized" by 2 or 3 or they are screwed is out of control as the peer and adult modeling in these environments is not what is teaching these underlying developmental skills. Yes, they can remind to you say please and thank you and share with your friends, but those are the superficial, tip of the iceberg skills - not the core that is developed as a part of normal neurological growth.

That's it for my early morning rant. Thanks for letting me get it out. Debate as you like, I won't buy it (But I would love to hear it!)

I completely agree, especially with the bolded part. We are doing preschool with DD, but only because I think it is something that she will enjoy, and honestly, I need the small break it gives me every week to just be with the baby. I have no problem with people not sending their kids to preschool. Just like I have no problem with people sending their children to daycare, but there is no need to sugar coat it by stating that their kids are better off because they are more socialized. I'm sure a great daycare can be a lot of fun for some kids, but a baby being at home with their mother, as long as she isn't completely incompetent, is great too.

Andrewsgal · February 2011

I agree with you to an extent the rest I would love to debate but I am working today in a kinder class to help the teacher come up with a game plan in handling a child whose social deficitsaree causing trouble in the classroom. A child who never attended Preschool

ironic don't you think?

babypuplove · February 2011

Andrewsgal:
I agree with you to an extent the rest I would love to debate but I am working today in a kinder class to help the teacher come up with a game plan in handling a child whose social deficitsaree causing trouble in the classroom. A child who never attended Preschool ironic don't you think?

Bolded part #1: I was trying to figure out what kind of disorder "social deficitsaree" was, when I realized you are just missing a couple of spaces. Smile

Bolded part #2: Not really. I mean, there are a million other factors at play that we aren't aware of. Such as, was this child nursed or given formula as an infant? Devil

susanmosley · February 2011

Andrewsgal - I would have to suggest that there is something else going on with attention, executive functioning, anxiety, language or sensory processing & not a result of no preschool. But I am also 1 million percent confident we will not se eye to eye on this. Iff the school is calling in a BCBA for this child, it isn't simply that because he didn't go to preK. You don't seem to have much confidence in what a typically developing child is capable of. (& yes, I know I shouldn't end a sentence in a preposition).

lms_bride · February 2011

THANK YOU for putting this on here! I love your scientific brain, not one pressured by what all the other moms are doing. And frankly, I always feel better when my opinions are reaffirmed (who doesn't?).

Andrewsgal · February 2011

susanmosley:
Andrewsgal - I would have to suggest that there is something else going on with attention, executive functioning, anxiety, language or sensory processing & not a result of no preschool. But I am also 1 million percent confident we will not se eye to eye on this. Iff the school is calling in a BCBA for this child, it isn't simply that because he didn't go to preK. You don't seem to have much confidence in what a typically developing child is capable of. (& yes, I know I shouldn't end a sentence in a preposition).

On a lunch break but I am very familiar with this child and her family ther are no coborbid or underlying issues here it is very intresting to see. I will not share anymore about this child, I just wanted to say ihave seen social deficits in typically developing children due to lack of exposure. I don't underestimate kids I am a realist. I do believe some kids are fine without preschool but some are not.

wifeandmama · February 2011

We all get your schtick, Andrewsgal.. My children will be socially inept, fall behind in school, and work mediocre jobs and/or end up in prison because I didn't send them to preschool. OR - even worse!!! - my children will disrupt your precious flowers in their "kinder" class. THE HORROR!!!!!!

ENOUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

susanmosley · February 2011

Andrewsgal:
I do believe some kids are fine without preschool but some are not.

And some kids are fine with preschool but some are not. I'm in a preK class right now where many show deficits/differences that aren't getting remediation by being in preschool. And regarding the kid you are working with (who I admittedly know nothing about), just because there is not a diagnosis doesn't mean there is not a neurological subtlety that is the underlying issue.

susanmosley · February 2011

Additionally Andrewsgal, I will say I do respect your opinions & beliefs on this - you are clearly as passionate about it as I am - I just think you are wrong

Andrewsgal · February 2011

susanmosley:
Andrewsgal:
I do believe some kids are fine without preschool but some are not.

And some kids are fine with preschool but some are not. I'm in a preK class right now where many show deficits/differences that aren't getting remediation by being in preschool. And regarding the kid you are working with (who I admittedly know nothing about), just because there is not a diagnosis doesn't mean there is not a neurological subtlety that is the underlying issue.

Really? After knowing the population I work with typically and my degree you don't think I can spot a nuero condition a mile away?

susanmosley · February 2011

Andrewsgal:
susanmosley:
Andrewsgal:
I do believe some kids are fine without preschool but some are not.

And some kids are fine with preschool but some are not. I'm in a preK class right now where many show deficits/differences that aren't getting remediation by being in preschool. And regarding the kid you are working with (who I admittedly know nothing about), just because there is not a diagnosis doesn't mean there is not a neurological subtlety that is the underlying issue.
Really? After knowing the population I work with typically and my degree you don't think I can spot a nuero condition a mile away?

I know I can't. And I have a lot of experience and education in this field as well. The mild and subtle deficits are HARD to identify and those are the kids who fall through the cracks and are called defiant and/or behavior problems. I think you are fooling yourself (ad being pretty egotistical, naive, and narrow minded) to say that you can spot them a mile away. That REALLY rubs me the wrong way. I am willing to say that I DON'T know it all - not even close. And the more I know, the less I know. I had a lot of respect until that statement. WOW. Seriously? You really don't know everything - and it is a bummer to those you work for that you believe you do. I'm embarrassed for you by that statement. I wish you hadn't said it and I hadn't had to go here. Ugh. Totally not the point of my initial post.

Mrs.Hizzo · February 2011

Susan, your OP makes me wonder what happens in kids with Aspergers, who never learn to read body language and non-verbal cues. I don't mean I think it has anything to do with socialization, I was just puzzling about what might happen in a baby to retard that particular aspect of social development.

Alli321 · February 2011

No debate here, as a mother of a daughter with delays and a neurological problem I agree with you. I will say that socializing with others her age and even with her baby sister has helped her cognitive and verbal skills. I believe that if I wasn't so into getting her out to playdates and other places/events with other kids she wouldn't be as far along as she is now.

susanmosley · February 2011

Mrs.Hizzo:
Susan, your OP makes me wonder what happens in kids with Aspergers, who never learn to read body language and non-verbal cues. I don't mean I think it has anything to do with socialization, I was just puzzling about what might happen in a baby to retard that particular aspect of social development.

They need to learn social thinking (a la Michelle Garcia Winner www,socialthinking.com), using a cognitive behavioral approach (not a behavioral approach) and learn that they have these deficits so they can learn how to compensate. What happens is that the kids have deficits that will not get better without someone helping/showing them and illustrating their differences and weakness in that area. It is the underlying problem of Aspergers and why independent adults with Aspergers can't hold jobs, develop meaningful/reciprocal relationships, etc. BIG issue. In addition, it isn't really "fixable" or necessarily possible to get these people up to peer level - they typically only improve related to themselves.

Alli321 · February 2011

Also, many neurological problems are so subtle and mild that they are very hard to diagnose or can be diagnosed incorrectly as a behavior problem or something like that.

Mrs.Hizzo · February 2011

susanmosley:
Mrs.Hizzo:
Susan, your OP makes me wonder what happens in kids with Aspergers, who never learn to read body language and non-verbal cues. I don't mean I think it has anything to do with socialization, I was just puzzling about what might happen in a baby to retard that particular aspect of social development.
They need to learn social thinking (a la Michelle Garcia Winner www,socialthinking.com), using a cognitive behavioral approach (not a behavioral approach) and learn that they have these deficits so they can learn how to compensate. What happens is that the kids have deficits that will not get better without someone helping/showing them and illustrating their differences and weakness in that area. It is the underlying problem of Aspergers and why independent adults with Aspergers can't hold jobs, develop meaningful/reciprocal relationships, etc. BIG issue. In addition, it isn't really "fixable" or necessarily possible to get these people up to peer level - they typically only improve related to themselves.

I have absolutely no idea what you just said to me.

Notwifezilla7 · February 2011

There's just so much to comment on in this post, my brain is spinning!

Basically, thanks SM!! Your OP speaks to everything that I believe in my core!

!

susanmosley · February 2011

Mrs.Hizzo:
susanmosley:
Mrs.Hizzo:
Susan, your OP makes me wonder what happens in kids with Aspergers, who never learn to read body language and non-verbal cues. I don't mean I think it has anything to do with socialization, I was just puzzling about what might happen in a baby to retard that particular aspect of social development.
They need to learn social thinking (a la Michelle Garcia Winner www,socialthinking.com), using a cognitive behavioral approach (not a behavioral approach) and learn that they have these deficits so they can learn how to compensate. What happens is that the kids have deficits that will not get better without someone helping/showing them and illustrating their differences and weakness in that area. It is the underlying problem of Aspergers and why independent adults with Aspergers can't hold jobs, develop meaningful/reciprocal relationships, etc. BIG issue. In addition, it isn't really "fixable" or necessarily possible to get these people up to peer level - they typically only improve related to themselves.
I have absolutely no idea what you just said to me.

HAHA. I was just coming back to say that my reply to you had generalizations and lacked cohesion in a major way - so sorry. Feel free to restate your question, if you care I could beat this horse for ever, so I am not going to stop replying until I have no one to reply to

I just reread your question - maybe you are asking on a neurological level what happens in individuals with Asperger's/autism? I think that is the million dollar question! I think the "duh" answer is that the areas/neurons/pathways/connections that are needed for understanding social nuances, social observation, developing relatedness, and social success are not developed or working as are in a neurotypical brain. So in these situations, the next best thing is teaching these people awareness and compensation. And it is proving to be a very successful treatment approach.

Are you sorry you asked?

susanmosley · February 2011

Mrs.Hizzo:
Susan, your OP makes me wonder what happens in kids with Aspergers, who never learn to read body language and non-verbal cues. I don't mean I think it has anything to do with socialization, I was just puzzling about what might happen in a baby to retard that particular aspect of social development.

With reread #3, I think you are talking about what causes Asperger's? Good question.

But to tie this into my OP, we know that kids with Asperger's done develop appropriate social skills simply by being placed in groups with children with typical social abilities...illustrating again that social skills or lack there of isn't a learned behavior type of thing, it is a neurological/developmental deal.

susanmosley · February 2011

Mrs.Hizzo:
Susan, your OP makes me wonder what happens in kids with Aspergers, who never learn to read body language and non-verbal cues. I don't mean I think it has anything to do with socialization, I was just puzzling about what might happen in a baby to retard that particular aspect of social development.

With reread #3, I think you are talking about what causes Asperger's? Good question.

But to tie this into my OP, we know that kids with Asperger's done develop appropriate social skills simply by being placed in groups with children with typical social abilities...illustrating again that social skills or lack there of isn't just a learned behavior type of thing, it is initially a neurological/developmental deal.

susanmosley · February 2011

Alli321:
No debate here, as a mother of a daughter with delays and a neurological problem I agree with you. I will say that socializing with others her age and even with her baby sister has helped her cognitive and verbal skills. I believe that if I wasn't so into getting her out to playdates and other places/events with other kids she wouldn't be as far along as she is now.

Sure, I would totally agree that social progress with kids with deficits can't be addressed fully without social opportunities. However, even though she may have neurological damage, she will still develop and mature as she ages, and some of the social skills we see early on in most children may follow a typical trajectory to some extent with her, just in a delayed manner. Does she have an autism spectrum disorder or something else?....if you care to share

susanmosley · February 2011

Alli321:
Also, many neurological problems are so subtle and mild that they are very hard to diagnose or can be diagnosed incorrectly as a behavior problem or something like that.

Without a doubt!!! I think that is a HUGE problem.

Alli321 · February 2011

After going to 2 orthopedists and 2 neurologists (we see the 2nd next week) it turns out she is missing part of her corpus collosum. We just know that from the MRI results, but will find out more from the neurologist. But her signs are very mild right now that it was hard to diagnose (which is why I guess the 1st 2 doctors said there was nothing wrong).

Alli321 · February 2011

susanmosley:
Alli321:
No debate here, as a mother of a daughter with delays and a neurological problem I agree with you. I will say that socializing with others her age and even with her baby sister has helped her cognitive and verbal skills. I believe that if I wasn't so into getting her out to playdates and other places/events with other kids she wouldn't be as far along as she is now.
Sure, I would totally agree that social progress with kids with deficits can't be addressed fully without social opportunities. However, even though she may have neurological damage, she will still develop and mature as she ages, and some of the social skills we see early on in most children may follow a typical trajectory to some extent with her, just in a delayed manner. Does she have an autism spectrum disorder or something else?....if you care to share

After going to 2 orthopedists and 2 neurologists (we see the 2nd next week) it turns out she is missing part of her corpus collosum. We just know that from the MRI results, but will find out more from the neurologist. But her signs are very mild right now that it was hard to diagnose (which is why I guess the 1st 2 doctors said there was nothing wrong).

mandymack · February 2011

EnglishMajor03:
Amen!
Does anyone else understand the magnitude of having SM on this board beside me?! Truly a wealth of information.

Me!!!

S, you are an invaluable resource (amongst a host of other things) to this board and it means a lot to me personally that you take the time to post/reply to topics that MATTER, beyond the daily typical SAHM banter.

I had not a clue on the effects, expectations, pros/cons of Preschool nor of Early Socialization... I have always felt like this phase of Emily's life was like taking a stab in the dark. You've shed A LOT of helpful light on it all for me and I can absolutely see and appreciate the truth of what you are saying, as I look back on our experiences and I agree with you 100%. So again, thank you!

Mrs.Hizzo · February 2011

susanmosley:
Mrs.Hizzo:
susanmosley:
Mrs.Hizzo:
Susan, your OP makes me wonder what happens in kids with Aspergers, who never learn to read body language and non-verbal cues. I don't mean I think it has anything to do with socialization, I was just puzzling about what might happen in a baby to retard that particular aspect of social development.
They need to learn social thinking (a la Michelle Garcia Winner www,socialthinking.com), using a cognitive behavioral approach (not a behavioral approach) and learn that they have these deficits so they can learn how to compensate. What happens is that the kids have deficits that will not get better without someone helping/showing them and illustrating their differences and weakness in that area. It is the underlying problem of Aspergers and why independent adults with Aspergers can't hold jobs, develop meaningful/reciprocal relationships, etc. BIG issue. In addition, it isn't really "fixable" or necessarily possible to get these people up to peer level - they typically only improve related to themselves.
I have absolutely no idea what you just said to me.
HAHA. I was just coming back to say that my reply to you had generalizations and lacked cohesion in a major way - so sorry. Feel free to restate your question, if you care I could beat this horse for ever, so I am not going to stop replying until I have no one to reply to
I just reread your question - maybe you are asking on a neurological level what happens in individuals with Asperger's/autism? I think that is the million dollar question! I think the "duh" answer is that the areas/neurons/pathways/connections that are needed for understanding social nuances, social observation, developing relatedness, and social success are not developed or working as are in a neurotypical brain. So in these situations, the next best thing is teaching these people awareness and compensation. And it is proving to be a very successful treatment approach.
Are you sorry you asked?

LOL, I'm not sorry I asked it. It's just that I stared blankly at your response for a couple minutes before deciding I wasn't even going to try to decipher it. I got enough of it to understand that whatever is it that doesn't function in these kids, it's hardwired to the point that no amount of socialization or therapy can fully compensate for the deficit.

Really, I didn't have a question, because I know that there are only theories about what causes any sort of autism. It was more just me stating that your OP about how kids are supposed to develop makes me really wonder about the kids who don't follow a normal track. So, basically, it was a worthless response on my part, but if there are any recent theories about this stuff that you'd care to share, I find the subject really interesting.

wifeandmama · February 2011

TobeMrs.Shavers:
EnglishMajor03:
Amen!
Does anyone else understand the magnitude of having SM on this board beside me?! Truly a wealth of information.
Me!!!
S, you are an invaluable resource (amongst a host of other things) to this board and it means a lot to me personally that you take the time to post/reply to topics that MATTER, beyond the daily typical SAHM banter.
I had not a clue on the effects, expectations, pros/cons of Preschool nor of Early Socialization... I have always felt like this phase of Emily's life was like taking a stab in the dark. You've shed A LOT of helpful light on it all for me and I can absolutely see and appreciate the truth of what you are saying, as I look back on our experiences and I agree with you 100%. So again, thank you!

agreed!

Love hearing SM's thoughts!

susanmosley · February 2011

Thanks English, Amanda, & wifeandmama - what you've said really makes me feel good - & eases my worries that I have annoyed the board with my babbling on a topic that I brought up! The feelings are mutual - you guys are great.

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Social Development is a Part of Neurology

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