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Success after IF
DavezWife
member
a lil' "church" discussion if you want
DavezWife
member
I was raised catholic, and Ava is baptized Lutheran per Davez's request (whatevs) but we've not gone to mass since. (except for weddings, etc)
God and I are fighting. He keeps taking my babies. It is of my belief that in my particular situation, this has gone beyond "He doesn't give you more than you can handle" and just gone Pure Medical Science at this point. I don't think God is driving my rollercoaster at this point. Think what you want, up to you, but I'm kinda not really a huge fan of Him right now, and to be honest, I may or may not give any church I drive by the middle finger.
I just heard a killer quote from my new friend Josie: the way I figure, if he is who he says he is, then he's cool with it". I thought the whole idea of "still believing there is a God, but denoucing him" is an interesting round table, so I'm throwing it out there.
What do you think about God's roll when the going gets (really) tough, i.e. severe IF, let's say.
Annnnnnnnd discuss.
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This discussion has been closed.
Re: a lil' "church" discussion if you want
infertility is the ONLY thing that has made me question my faith. plenty of other crappy things have happened in my life, but infertility was the only thing that made me wonder if there really is a god. so much of getting pregnant and staying pregnant just seems up to god.
i say if you want to flip off every single church in the country, you are more than entitled to do so. you've been through hell - god will understand.
I pretty much gave up on him 9 years ago when my brother was killed in a car accident. The fact that no one stopped and helped my brother while he was basically laying dead on Interstate 75 in Florida makes me angry! My brother was robbed of meeting his nephews and niece. I also couldn't stand watching my father crying because you aren't supposed to bury you children. I swear that day a huge part of my dad died with Perry!
I also said a giant F YOU to him with this entire IF thing and all my m/c especially my late m/c.
I did still had my children baptised and I had my 2nd wedding (first time we eloped and our families wanted a church wedding) at methodist church. I was raised Catholic but I hate the anti IF treatment views!
LO #1 - 1 unmedicated/self-monitored IUI w/ donor sperm.
LO #2 - 1 m/c, 2 BFNs, 4th IUI worked (unmedicated/self-monitored with new donor sperm).
Life is beautiful!
I guess I'm in the minority here...
I think all those sayings "god won't give you more...he has a plan" etc. etc. can be very hurtful and not the best motivators when struggling with something. I don't see the situation as "god taking babies", bad things happen to good people, it sucks, it's unfair, it makes us cry and ache and hurt, but I also think god brings us to people who can heal us (spiritually as well as physically).
I don't like the quote, it seems like a very childish way of looking at things, like saying well, if he's going to forgive me anyways I'll just do whatever I want. I do believe that you can be a faithful person and still get mad at god, get angry but like any relationship eventually you need to make peace and look for the deeper meaning.
E
God is not taking your babies....He does not punish.
There is no verse in the Bible that says he wont give us what we cant handle, it's a paraphrase. :Corinthians 10:13 which states that when we are tempted, God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our ability to endure, but with the temptation will provide a way out (exodus)
Having said that, after this last miscarriage, my faith was in question. But I also know that THAT is where God wanted me then. I was really trying to listen to what the heck he was trying to tell me, if anything. I've turned infertility into an idol. It controls my life. This does not glorify the Lord.
I find peace in knowing that His plan is better than mine, even though it sucks for me right now, I have to have faith that His Path for me is much more mighty and beyond anything I can grasp.
HE will forgive me ( and you ) for throwing our fists up to the heavens when we hurt. HE knows it's what we need to do, we're human. But HE also waits and waits for us to come "back" to Him. That's when HE does HIS best work on me.
Morning lady. While I don't agree with you and can't relate to what you are saying now, you know there was most definitely a time (a long, long time) that I could. Even once we decided to adopt & some form of hope returned, I still questioned, WHY. All.the.time. Honestly before I became Noah's mommy, I can't say that the anger & bitterness ever left.
I think I was at my all time low & the most angry with God after we lost the triplets, but boy had that anger had time to grow. When we had the loss in November, I cried out to Him that I could not take it anymore. I was sick & tired of how He seemed to grant every prayer in the world but ours. During our struggle, I was so ashamed of how angry at Him I was, but I couldn't help it. I'm crying just thinking about it. Now, growing up, we weren't church goers, but we went from time to time. Never went during college and then me & hubby started going sporadically. On mothers day right after our first loss, DH & I were so angry at Him. We went to church. And we were angry at Him. How awful is that? Angry at him, in church. DH, who grew up Catholic, had made a decision that day that he couldn't be angry with God anymore. I wish I could have done that.
With so much loss, all you do is ask WHY and try to "figure it out". I really don't think that's ever possible.
Something that stands out about what you said...."Still believing there is a God". Well, in my heart, He is THE God. It's just something inherent in me. I think it is believing He is the God. Does he drive everything? I believe so. I believe He is my creator & my savior. Did he take those babies from us to punish us? No, not anymore. I believe in my heart that the way we "got" our son was such a miracle. I know he's the one God meant for us. My biology, my body screwed me. It screwed my husband. I know that there is something medically wrong with me that can't be fixed. And I dont think we will ever know what it is. I don't think God "did it" to punish me, I just think it's my medical fact. It was a struggle, the struggle, that taught me to let Him in. My mom says all the time, "it could happen naturally", "miracles do happen". Yes, miracles happen. Noah is a miracle. But I don't believe that I will ever have a successful pregnancy. It's just not in the cards. Did God do it? I don't think so. But what he did do was teach me how to deal with that loss. He taught me that I didn't have to curl up & die, because I had Him. He taught me that I didn't have to bear all those horrible burdens----I could put it all on His shoulders. Everything. He didn't cause that awful stuff to happen, but He could carry my pain for me.
When I was angry & mad, yelling at Him & full of bitterness....I got nothing. There was a point in time that I wanted to die. My life was so horrible in every aspect that I honestly did not think I could do it anymore. I did not want that, but it's how I was. I started reading verses from the bible (and I do not read the bible, though I should). My friends started talking to me about it. I started praying. I asked for healing. The way I see it, I had a choice....I could have kept the anger & eventually ended my marriage & probably even my life. I would still end up with nothing. Or I could do what really was the only option left to me...open up to him. It was hard & took some time. To be blunt, is it something for me to lean on? Yes, I definitely lean on it & believe it to my core. But without it, I would have a pretty empty heart.
I don't really think it's about "not giving you more than you can handle". I think it is more about him leading/helping you to choose what you can handle & how you go about dealing with that *** hand. Does that make sense? I dont know, maybe that was all rambling. I never thought this at the time, but I am closer to God than ever, because of what we went through & the place I'm at now. For me, I had a choice. I could choose faith or I could choose to quit, on God & everything else.
I sometimes wish there was certain answers to what you asked.That's part of faith though. I didn't really have God in my heart for so long. But I did want Him in it. I was just angry. I think that God expects you to be angry sometimes. He expects you to yell at him & to question.I think it's a miracle in and of itself that He can come into hearts, bitter & angry hearts, like mine was.
I'm not telling you what to do, you know I don't roll like that.
But it seems like you could be open to Him. Yea, you're angry & not really lovin' on him right now, but you don't seem like you've shut him out completely. You seem as churchy as we were. Heck, we don't go now, but I've got Him in my heart. Read over some scripture & blogs about this sort of thing. Talk to peeps. Question. Keep asking the tough ones. Be open to what you hear & read. I was amazed at how some of the crazy things got arranged in my head & heart in the beginning. Be open, what do you have to lose? That's just my take though, based on what I've experienced.
I just moved my blog to Wordpress & wrote this recently: https://thevallefamily.wordpress.com/journey-to-our-baby-love/
Because we're fancy like that.
Well, I personally don't believe in god and never have. BUT, for some reason, even though I don't believe anything, my view has always been that if there WAS a god, I would view it as the more benevolent/loving/accepting force that doesn't punish or judge for someone doubting, not believing, questioning (maybe my hopeful "Get out of Jail Free Card" just in case? LOL).
Honestly though, my view is that the purpose/benefit of religion is keeping people moral, honest, good (in theory, obviously doesn't work in practice all the time), etc., so the "head", so to speak, should judge solely by that and not by rote rule following/belief/praying, etc. So if you're a good person, I don't think lack of faith or anger at god for very valid reasons would jeopardize anything. I realize my position is entirely circular since I don't believe but then say what I would believe, but that's just how I've always thought about it.
My thoughts exactly!!
Oh man, this could be a lengthy discussion sometime. Hard to put it all in a post. I personally cringe when I hear " He doesn't give you more than you can handle" because I don't think he's particularly giving us every single challenge as some sort of test, per se. I do think of Him as a heavenly father, who cares about me and hurts when I hurt, like my biological father. I do think there is a big plan out there, and it's going to be great. It's like an ever changing plan, but it's good. If that makes sense. Even though there are many lows along the way.
I don't blame you for being mad at Him right now at all. I think that's where you're at. You've been suffering a lot. I do think that in let's say 5 years, or 10 years, you will be glad of where you're at, because the kids you will have are the ones that are "meant to be" ha ha, do you hate that phrase too? I can't compare my situation to yours, everyones is different. I had three early losses, and it's so hard, but I realize if one of them would've worked out, I wouldn't have my Julia or Emma. And I love and know my Julia and Emma, so I am happy with how things turned out. Even though I would've loved those other babies too. I don't know, just rambling now.
I went to church sporadically growing up and never really felt like I belonged anywhere. When I was about 23 I realized I was missing something, and I realized it was God. I got baptized then and am definitely a believer. I'm not Catholic or Lutheran, I guess I just consider myself Christian and believe in the bible.
In summary (lol) I don't think God is punishing you, as I don't think people are "rewarded" by getting pg, having kids, etc. Anyway, it's interesting to see what people have to say.
Me too. When I rock Noah, his glider is by his window that looks out to our Garden. DH buried our triplets there. And while I rock Him, I think about them as I look out. But not with sadness anymore. I can't explain how or why, besides that it's just Him. More miracles have taken place in our lives since we matched with his birth parents in August than I ever thought possible. I am BLOW AWAY about what has taken place these last months. It is all beyond my wildest dreams. And I will always miss them, but if they had lived, I wouldn't be able to claim THIS miracle. Life back then was horrible, but would I change it? Not a chance. And that realization, for whatever reason that I can not explain, is because of God. Never did I think I could look back on something so horrible and say that.
Anyways, Efooey, June24, Lady chicago, and a few others said it much better than myself.
I am not sure what I believe or not these days. I grew up methodist, went to church camp, married in a church. I feel uplifted when I attend services, but where or where is He when people really need him. Why does bad have to happen to awesome people, like yourself?
I don't understand anymore.
On the other hand I have these two perfect little girls who I love more than anything in this world. they are awesome, only someone such as He can create such awesome little people.
I'm conflicted, but more on the I don't really believe... but like you said He's forgiving right?
Savannah
Callista
Baby Trail Blog
"Someday we will look at our babies and know it will be worth it. If it was easy, we would not have had our babies, the babies we were meant to have." From Amy052006
part of me feels like a little child with my fingers in my ears going "neener neener neener" and the mature part of me (hey, it's in there, lol) is going to save this thread for later when I can read some really wise words and "get" it better.
I truly don't believe God points a finger and says, you get cancer, you get IF, you lead a charmed life. I think he holds our hand and cries with us, as we experience joy and loss, and I am glad He is there.
I also think He helps guide us in the right direction, but we dont always listen
ETA: I read some of the responses and at the risk of being preachy, I really believe that God gave his only son so he could be more benevolent. I certainly don't believe that God strikes down (figuratively or literally) those who don't believe in Him. I am married to a Jew and we have some differing opinions on some pretty important things. I was taught and I accept that Jesus is the key, but I DO NOT believe that means that if one doesn't believe Jesus is the son, that one is condemned. I think that if there is a judgement, it is based on actions overall, and being mad at God doesn't factor into it. My husband lost his faith, and found it, when I talked about mine. I am proud of that, but I don't ask that he abandon his judism, I only ask that he honor it, if that makes sense. I want him to be able to stand up and be proud to be Jewish, just as I am proud and happy being catholic. It is not about what you practice, but how. You actions, as a whole, not your thoughts
Being angry at God, in my mind, is sort of like being angry at your parents. I love my parents, but wow, I can get so angry at my mother that I am incapable of forming words. I have also been that angry at God. But just as my mother forgives me, He forgives me. I am sure that someday Ethan will feel that same anger at me, but at no point will I stop loving him because he is angry, or because he questions that I am doing the right thing for him. I will love him unconditionally, no matter what, for all time. But I might not like what he is doing. God might not like how I behave all the time, but He will always be at my side.
Most definitely.
My take on it? God may not give you more than you can handle - but life sure does.
Two years ago, my sister's fifteen year old son climbed a tree, put a rope around his neck, jumped, and died - alone - in the woods. Who could "handle" that? That wasn't God taking her son. That was her son's mental troubles, and a horrible, horrible teenage impulse - a HUMAN teenage impulse and illness. Nothing to do with God handing out a situation for someone to "handle."
3 years prior to that - my brother-in-law died in bed with my other sister and his then just turned 4 year old daughter laying in bed with him. Again - not God. Frailty of the human condition.
There are atrocities in other countries that none of us could begin to imagine. Babies - infants - raped in Africa (thought to be a cure for AIDS by some very superstitious and uneducated people.) Mass rape and genocide as a means of dispiriting and traumatizing during times of war. The holocaust? Surely more than ANYONE could "handle." Try to fathom being in a concentration camp and watching emaciated family members walk to the "showers."
LIFE - as a human - can be fuucking HARD. Humans can be so MEAN to each other - humans can be extremely fragile - and humans can be extremely GOOD too.
No, I don't think God doles out bad things to people He thinks can "handle" them. That is just the most ridiculous concept to me. And I don't think everything happens for a reason either. Another trite, simplistic cliche I can't stand.
I like to think that God does exist to provide comfort - I like to think miracles CAN happen - I like to think there is something beyond what we know now. I like to think Jesus was an amazing, spiritual teacher. I like to believe that there is power in prayer - the energy of humans sending positive, strong feelings together - that it can have some effect, sometimes. That's what I like to think. I struggle with "faith" - I envy those who have it, without question - but I sometimes wonder though, how many really terrible things they've dealt with (and I know some have!! But I know a lot - haven't. And I think it's easier to have faith when you think "God never gives you more than you can handle!" and you're referring to your car breaking down... or bad news about a job you really wanted but are basically OK without... or a friend letting you down. Those types of examples make me shake my head and often say out loud, "Jesus.")
"When it comes to sleeping, whatever your baby does is normal. If one thing has damaged parents enjoyment of their babies, it's rigid expectations about how and when the baby should sleep." ~ James McKenna, Ph.D., Mother Baby Behavioral Sleep Center, University of Notre Dame
I will be the first to admit I totally have issues with the church and god in general. I am definitely agnostic, I would like to believe there is something bigger than myself out there. As a child I never believed in hell. I have no idea how I ever got the idea in my head as a youngster that I just didn't understand how an all loving god could have hell. To this day I still can't wrap my head around it.
My other big issue is that I have never felt comforted by the church. I was raped and my grandfather passed away right around the same time and that was the first time I really felt angry at the whole shebang. Then the rc church told us that we couldn't get married because DH wasn't catholic and we were sure we wanted to have kids right away, they said our marriage would fail. We left since we clearly weren't getting married there and cried my eyes out. I would just feel worse about myself when I went so I stopped going completely.
At my lowest IF point I started searching for something else, started meditating and read up a lot on Buddhism which I know is more of a philosophy than a religion but I do feel very comforted by it. I believe that my grandfather is out there watching over me, I have always just "felt" it. I think these are more spiritual vs religious though.
I also hate the whole thing happens for a reason but then I look and I wouldn't be where I am if those things didn't happen. If I wasn't raped I would never have transferred colleges and met DH. I feel in my heart like Jax was the one we were supposed to have and I have no idea why I had to have the miscarriages to get to him. If Dh wasn't abused as a child he wouldn't be who he is today, yes a dip at times but overall he is a wonderful father and husband. I just can't believe though that any of it is a master plan created by god.
I am all over the place.
Daycare is SO exhausting!
Blog
Oh gosh, I am very sorry to hear you suffered such a traumatic event...and lost your grandfather around the same time. Terrible.
LO #1 - 1 unmedicated/self-monitored IUI w/ donor sperm.
LO #2 - 1 m/c, 2 BFNs, 4th IUI worked (unmedicated/self-monitored with new donor sperm).
Life is beautiful!
One thousand percent agree with your perspective on this.
"When it comes to sleeping, whatever your baby does is normal. If one thing has damaged parents enjoyment of their babies, it's rigid expectations about how and when the baby should sleep." ~ James McKenna, Ph.D., Mother Baby Behavioral Sleep Center, University of Notre Dame
I prefer to think of life in these terms when times get tough.. heard this when I was a kid and stuck with me. When things are overwhelming .. I need to somehow keep things in perspective.
The young lady was at the end of her rope. Seeing no way out, she dropped to her knees in prayer. "Lord, I can't go on," she said. "I have too heavy a cross to bear."
The Lord replied, "My daughter, if you can't bear its weight, just place your cross inside this room. Then, open that other door and pick out any cross you wish."
The woman was filled with relief. "Thank you, Lord," she sighed, and she did as she was told. Upon entering the other door, she saw many crosses, some so large the tops were not visible. Then, she spotted a tiny cross leaning against a far wall. "I'd like that one, Lord," she whispered. And the Lord replied," My daughter, that is the cross you just brought in."
TTC #1: IUI #2 = BFP , Betas 550 (16 dpiui), 1523 (18 dpiui)
Hypothyroid, LPD, FSH 13.0, TTC 2 yrs B4 BFP
TTC #2: FSH 23, AMA, IUI 1, 2, 3 = BFN, IVF #1 = MC
IVF #2 = BFP - Betas 194 (14dp2dt), 366 (16 dp2dt), 841 (18 dp2dt)
(vanished twin ~7 weeks)
Love
I love the message behind this, even though I'm not religious.
LO #1 - 1 unmedicated/self-monitored IUI w/ donor sperm.
LO #2 - 1 m/c, 2 BFNs, 4th IUI worked (unmedicated/self-monitored with new donor sperm).
Life is beautiful!
Lucypee, I fricken love every single word that fricken comes out of your mouth. cheese and rice, write a book already.
(and "word" to the cross story, I like that. And thankfully, have always had that message in the back of my head/heart during this mess. The one thing my extended travels, and nursing, has taught me is that there is ALWAYS someone out there having a chittier day than I'm having)
Infertility really made me question everything about my faith- I remember thinking "WHY is God doing this to us, aren't we good people?" I was so angry at God. Now looking back I realize that things really do happen to us to teach us something, I know how much I hated hearing that all the time, but I really believe it's true. If I had been able to get pregnant we never would have met and adopted baby C- God obviously had another path in mind for us. IF taught me patience (something I never have had) and that
Good things do happen to do good people- I look at my 1 year old newphew who was just diagnosed with cancer- is that fair? NO- but life isn't fair. I do think at a certain point some things are just medical issues and have nothing to do with God- that is the only way I can justify sickness and disease- because I don't beleive that God is punishing anyone with disease or infertility (for example)
So true. The suffering in the world is so heartbreaking. Sometimes that sad fact really gives us perspective and thankfulness, even for the awful things that have happened. Just thinking about some of the things I saw in Thailand & China, or hearing about kids with terminal diseases....
I don't believe in God. I don't believe in a master plan or that you're being tested. I believe life sucks sometimes. It just happens to suck more for some and at sometimes than others.
I'm trying to embrace the idea that you can't control everything that happens to you. All you can control is how you react to it.
I had somewhat of a breakdown Rosh Hashanah 2008. It was approximately 2 years after my ectopic and 2 year after my miscarriage, from IVF #4, and we were prepping for IVF #7. Where Christmas seems to be a difficult time of the year for many christians dealing with IF, Rosh Hashanah was my very difficult time. After that breakdown, I blogged the following about exactly what you're talking about - believing but being angry.
"This might lead some to wonder if my sadness is just a timing issue or if, after all I've been through, I'm questioning my belief in G-d. I can answer that honestly. No, I have never questioned my belief in G-d. I still believe that everything that happens does so for a reason and those reasons are guided by G-d. This doesn't mean that I haven't struggled with my anger at him for facilitating the things that have happened to us, or, more accurately, not happened for us. I have considered thrusting a big middle finger at the sky and not participating in this year's Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur services, but, I realize that doing so would not be out of anger or disbelief, but, rather, out of defiance and that wouldn't be the right reason. And, as I said at the beginning of this post, I actually enjoy these holidays. So, who would I be hurting in the end if I chose not to participate?"
I am by no means a religious person in any way. However, I will never forget something my grandfather said after my uncle (his son) passed away suddenly at the age of 35. He said "Should I be angry at God for taking my son? Maybe. But then who do I thank for giving me my son in the first place, and the 35 wonderful years we had together?"
I try and remember this during the hard times, especially now, when I look into my daughter's beautiful face and realize what I miracle I have experienced.
I am in the camp of everything happens for a reason - I truly believe this is the case - even though we may not know the reason at the time and may not know the reason for some time. I lost my father at the age of 18 and my mother at the age of 19 - my brother who was 17 and I at the age of 19 were on our own - no other family. I had to take custody of my brother and we somehow make it -against all odds. My brother is now a Marine fighting for this country. I think if we did not lose our parents at such a young age then we would not have turned into the people we were meant to be - of course it was hard - very hard - but now I can look back as see that it did happen for a reason - and obviously we were able to handle it.
Sometimes I struggle with the fact that God has taken almost all of my family- with the exception of my brother and now he will not even give me a family of my own. When I had my miscarriage it really took a toll on me and even though a year later I am still grieving - I also see that maybe it was not my time to be a mother - or maybe my marriage needed to become stronger before we become parents.
You're welcome to visit anytime!
I'm so late to this post, but I agree with this 100%. I wouldn't have Gwen if Gregory survived birth. I wouldn't have her, but I WOULD have him. I love her to the moon and back. I don't think that it means Gregory wasn't "meant to be" my baby.
I understand what both of you are saying perfectly, and, in your situations, it makes sense, but, I think my perspective might be a little different. If either of you hadn't suffered the terrible losses you did, you still may have gone on to have the amazing children you have today, however, in my case, if hadn't lost two pregnancies, or, if any of my other IVF's had been successful, I absolutely would not have had Alana because we never would have needed to pursue donor egg.
So, I can only speak for me and my situation, but, I 100% believe that, had I not suffered through what I did, I absolutely would not have Alana, the child I believe I was meant to have.