Need to chat with dog owners about discipline

GuitaristsGirl · January 2011

I'm really not sure how to handle this. We are very loving and gentle with our dogs, treat them as members of the family, etc. However, as much as we'd like to think otherwise!, they are not people! Therefore, we discipline and talk to them in ways that we don't want to talk to DS.

With DS, we hope/ intend to limit our use of the word "no" to situations in which he's putting himself or others in harms way. (Use positive language instead of negative) We hope/ intend to redirect as a first line of defense. Etc. Etc.

With the dogs, although we try to be "calm and assertive" (a la the Dog Whisperer!) they are absolutely crazy little things that often drive me crazy! Also, my tolerance level is much lower now that DS is here (esp. with things like jumping, nipping, getting up in his face, etc.) So, I do raise my voice, I do tell them "no" in a very stern voice, and I do swat their behinds on very rare occasions.

It just occurred to me that there's not much point in limiting my use of "no" with DS, if he's going to hear it all the time in the house anyway!! In your opinion - Is this a valid thought/ concern, or am I making too much of it? Do you treat your dogs as you do your DS (within reason, of course) so that he only sees positive behavior to model, or do you trust that he will somehow be able to discern the difference? Or, maybe in your opinion the only thing that "matters" is the behavior directed specifically toward your LO?

preheatedoven · January 2011

I was just thinking about this the other day. We have two chihuahuas and we have to be stern with them or they will bark, nip, jump and pretty much take over the house.

I was scolding a dog the other day and was worried that the LOs would be alarmed that I was raising my voice. They didn't even notice. Didn't look my way, didn't stop what they were doing, just kept playing with each other.

I think they can distinguish your tone well enough to know that it is how you are talking to the dogs and that when you talk to them its different. (I hope that makes sense, I'm running on about 3 hrs of sleep!)

schmoodle · January 2011

GuitaristsGirl:

Or, maybe in your opinion the only thing that "matters" is the behavior directed specifically toward your LO?

I'd like to think this, but not sure. At this age, I'm not yet sure if Toodle gets the distinction between human and animal. DH often gets mad at the cats and swats at/kicks them (never with force or that would hurt them, but like shooing them out of the way) and I tell him not to do that in front of Toodle. We yell "get down" at the cats a lot when they're on tables/counters, so much that Toodle now yells "get down" at the cat anytime she's anywhere other than the floor - which would argue in favor of the opinion above, except that sometimes he also yells "get down!" at adults for no reason...but I don't have a problem with yelling no at animals in a way I wouldn't at Toodle. I figure even if he doesn't get it now, at some point soon he will draw the distinction between animals/people (even if we teach him to be gentle with both, a lesson DH has to follow as well).

ladychicago · January 2011

I know I am not at that parenting stage yet, but my take is that being the pack leader with your dog and working on discipline with your child are two totally different things. In fact, I think it is IMPORTANT for DS to see/hear you with the dogs, because DS is a pack leader too, and he needs to know how to effectively stop bad dog behavior. To me, the critical issue is having well behaved, safe dogs, and having commands the whole family can use to achieve that behavior. So if the dogs respond to a stern "no!" then I would not change that. It isn't that the only behaviors that matter are the ones directed at your LO, but it is about modeling good behavior for DS, and that means different actions towards people and pets. I honestly believe children are capable of understanding the difference between parent-child relationships and human-dog relationships.

GuitaristsGirl · January 2011

schmoodle:

We yell "get down" at the cats a lot when they're on tables/counters, so much that Toodle now yells "get down" at the cat anytime she's anywhere other than the floor - which would argue in favor of the opinion above, except that sometimes he also yells "get down!" at adults for no reason...

Too fnuny - I so see this in our future, and I'm not sure how I feel about it!

Smudges*Mom · January 2011

Grant laughs when I say no to Smudge. He sometimes cries when I say it to him--like, no, don't hit Smudge or no, don't stand on the iPad.

I don't know if it is a stellar training method, but we have pulled the ole squirt bottle back out. It seems to be working, just the sight of it correct Smudge's improper behavior.

jds0521 · January 2011

Hmm, well I guess we don't tell our dog "no" per say, we make it more specific to the bhavior he is doing. So if he's in the baby's face or in a place where we don't want him to be, we say "Go" very sternly. If we want him to stay put or not run at people when they come to the door, we say "stay". We do tell him no from time to time & he normally puts his ears down & stops whatever he is doing. We put him in puppy training when he was teeny tiny so he understands & listens to basic commands. And when he doesn't, we spray him with a water bottle to discipline him - he hates the water bottle! Normally we don't even have to spray him - just threaten him with it!

GuitaristsGirl · January 2011

ladychicago:
In fact, I think it is IMPORTANT for DS to see/hear you with the dogs, because DS is a pack leader too, and he needs to know how to effectively stop bad dog behavior.

Good point!

(Although, I'm still a little hesitant because, like SmudgesMom, my DS has also watched me with concern in his face when I get tough with the dogs - I don't want to scare him!)

superned · January 2011

Dogs and children are similar in that it's much more effective to teach them what to do, rather than simply tell them what not to do.

For example, "Don't jump on the couch" becomes "Please sit on the furniture."

Or, "Don't bark" becomes, "[Please] be quiet."

Dogs and children are similar because just telling them No gives them no direction on what to do instead. Teaching dogs things like "Quiet" or "Go to your bed" are relatively easy to do.

I don't think it's a matter of not using the word No around your children, but rather working on positive reinforcement with your dogs. It might be worth it to hire a professional trainer for a few sessions. (I don't know about you, but with everything else it's HARD for me to find time to work with my dogs, especially both of them individually...hence we're still working on some bad behaviors.) Overall, it's going to be way more effective, and then your question would be moot. : )

Temp159135562506975 · January 2011

i raise my voice with the dogs - b/c it's what they understand... it has never confused my children - they know i'm not yelling at them (b/c i really don't ever yell at them)... and it's not like it's happening all day long.

if you are having to correct your dogs that often - then there lies the problem.

We have our dogs gated off with access to the kitchen and dining room- but not the play area/livingroom where the kids are most of the day. They can see us but are not WITH the children - so this way they are safe, and the kids are safe... since it takes a long time to teach children how to be have with dogs... we do a little controlled time with the dogs and babies each day - but then end it before it gets too rough or crazy - b/c the babies can easily fall/jump on the dogs, and their natural response might be to bite - which wouldn't be THEIR fault - yet, would be very bad for our family and the dogs....

we put them in their kennels when the babies are going out into the kitchen/diningroom area - so there are never issues.... then when it's just DH & me, or us with DS1, we have the dogs come into the livingroom with us to hang out.

the only time i really have to yell at the dogs is if they start barking or rough housing too loud together - which is why i have to yell... otherwise it's rare that i have to correct them in front of the kids.

xtencornfield · January 2011

ladychicago:
I know I am not at that parenting stage yet, but my take is that being the pack leader with your dog and working on discipline with your child are two totally different things. In fact, I think it is IMPORTANT for DS to see/hear you with the dogs, because DS is a pack leader too, and he needs to know how to effectively stop bad dog behavior. To me, the critical issue is having well behaved, safe dogs, and having commands the whole family can use to achieve that behavior. So if the dogs respond to a stern "no!" then I would not change that. It isn't that the only behaviors that matter are the ones directed at your LO, but it is about modeling good behavior for DS, and that means different actions towards people and pets. I honestly believe children are capable of understanding the difference between parent-child relationships and human-dog relationships.

I agree with this. Buster is a well-behaved dog in general (and rarely barks which is why DS is a little startled and sometimes cries when other dogs bark) but he still needs to be given a stern "no" pretty frequently, particularly because of his size--90+lbs--and him thinking he's really the size of a toy poodle. DS definitely already knows that when we're reprimanding the dog, it's not directed at him.

perry7285 · January 2011

i think youre overthinking this. DS will understand that he is not a dog. i wouldnt worry.

qtpa2t · January 2011

I come from the school of thought in dog training that dogs don't understand "no". They don't understand what not to do, they understand what to do. I think kids are pretty much the same in their early stages. If anything, the dogs are good practice for the child. If you find yourself saying no to the dogs and raising your voice, trust me, you're going to find yourself doing it with your son.

jmkatz · January 2011

ladychicago:
I know I am not at that parenting stage yet, but my take is that being the pack leader with your dog and working on discipline with your child are two totally different things. In fact, I think it is IMPORTANT for DS to see/hear you with the dogs, because DS is a pack leader too, and he needs to know how to effectively stop bad dog behavior. To me, the critical issue is having well behaved, safe dogs, and having commands the whole family can use to achieve that behavior. So if the dogs respond to a stern "no!" then I would not change that. It isn't that the only behaviors that matter are the ones directed at your LO, but it is about modeling good behavior for DS, and that means different actions towards people and pets. I honestly believe children are capable of understanding the difference between parent-child relationships and human-dog relationships.

I agree with this 100%.

I want Lucy to KNOW that she can tell the dogs "No" if they are bothering her, licking her, taking her food , whatever. Also, we have always used "No" with our dogs (they are 5 and 6), so I really don't know how we could stop now anyway.

dusk42 · January 2011

We say "eh-eh!" to get their attention and then redirect. We also do a lot of positive reinforcement of the behaviors we want. If they are jumping, nipping, etc., "no" isn't an efficient fix. "No" is giving them attention, even if it is negative, and encouraging the behaviors. There are lots of more efficient things you can do that are easy.

https://www.ddfl.org/behavior/nilif.pdf

https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/cms-category/dog-training-tips

We don't swat them because it doesn't work and we don't want DD to think she can do that.

We do treat the dogs "softly," but it is really more important to teach DD that the dogs deserve a lot of respect - it's not for the dogs' benefit.

DD has learned that "eh-eh" means back off, so it's essentially "no," but not as annoying when she says "no" now.

Also, I would avoid listening to Cesar/the dog whisperer and instead focus on positive reinforcement/patricia mcconnell/NILIF (nothing in life is free).

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