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SanHawaii08
member
why chinese mothers are superior
SanHawaii08
member
inamra guessed it - this was the article i was talking about in the weekly check-in.
linky. discuss. 
This discussion has been closed.
Re: why chinese mothers are superior
some quick thoughts on my part, will probably add more later...
at first, i thought she was being satirical. I was laughing...until i realized she was completely serious! i hope she exaggerated a bit for marketing purposes, but i think she does do a *great* job highlighting how huge the cultural gap is in terms of these two methods of parenting. as i alluded to in the weekly check-in, i think the special snowflake, i deserve a blue ribbon for showing up attitude has gone way too far. people, including kids, will live up to (or at least try to live up to) the expectations you set for them, and being rewarded for being mediocre is not acceptable imo. eg, my kids won't earn money for good grades - that's just what you do. my mom was one of those who would look at a 96 and ask where the other 4 points went, heh. I don't think there's anything wrong with that and will probably do the same - if you don't get a 100, it's not the end of the world, but we'll talk about what happened and devise a strategy for how to do better next time.
the comments i thought were really interesting too, i've only read a few, but i imagine i'll feel a bit defensive at many of them - i expect to be a strict parent (though not like that!) and expect my kids to excel, not just in schoolwork, but in being responsible, persistent, working hard, etc to meet their goals. i think there is *huge* benefit to pushing someone beyond (what they think are) their limits to show them what they can achieve - there is such a sense of accomplishment, and it builds so much self confidence and self esteem. I loved the piano story, though I could never actually go the lengths she did. i'll also encourage sports, especially team sports, which teach a whole different set of skills and attitudes. it doesn't matter to me which instrument they play, though I do hope they pick something. i certainly won't spank them, nor call them garbage, but i hope they fear my disapproval at least a little bit as much as i feared my parents' while growing up.
too much, and I think that causes other problems...at some point, you need to make your own decisions and be okay with them.
okay, that was longer and more ramble-y than i expected...
My impression was that, yes, she was serious, but that she also laid out the brutal truth and behavioral extremes in order to live up to the "Chinese mother" caricature.She is trying to sell a book, after all.
For me, the article got me thinking about some research I once read that suggested that while Asian (from Asia) mothers attributed children's success to hard work, American mothers tended to attribute it to innate ability. So although I think the author was often extreme, I agree with the idea of instilling the value of hard work and teaching children that success and enjoyment often don't arrive until you've earned it. (And that you can be success even if the odds - biological, circumstantial, etc. - seem stacked against you)
Personally, I do hope to "press" my children to work hard, be responsible, and give good effort in school and all things in life; we will have high expectations. At the same time, I hope I support them in making their own path, finding their own passions, and feeling unconditionally loved whether or not they play piano at Carnegie Hall.
I read this a few days ago, and although I think she's probably writing mostly truths, I think she's also being intentionally polemic to stir up controversy to drive up sales.
Anyway, my thoughts: she has a point about the Western mother. The whole "everyone is a special snowflake and we're all winners!!!!" attitude has come waaaaay too far in my opinion. No, we're not all winners. When you play soccer, one team wins and one team loses. And then you grow up, get a job, and one person gets a promotion while another one doesn't. Teaching your child anything else does them a huge disservice later in life and gives kids entitlement complexes.
That said, I expect great things from my children. And by great things, I mean that they do things to the best of their ability - that they fully reach their potential. If they're genuinely crap at math (which may happen - I am!), then a B in that class might be the top of their potential, and that's OK. But if they're excellent at math and get a B? Not OK, and I'll expect better from them.
I also expect them to work hard at things that they don't excel at, because with a few exceptions, success is more due to perseverance than innate talent. I read about a study done with two groups of kids. All the kids were given a fairly easy task, which everyone completed. The first group was told, "Oh wow! Good job! You are so smart!" (i.e., praising innate ability and talent). The second group was told, "Oh wow! Good job! You worked so hard!" (i.e., praising perseverance). The next task was much harder - almost all of the kids from the first group gave up in a short period of time, while the kids in the second group buckled down and tried even harder, and most succeeded in completing the task. It doesn't mean that you can't compliment and encourage your child when they possess a talent, or that you shouldn't say they're smart - but that hard work and determination need to be applauded and celebrated as well.
Oh, one thing I'm curious about - what about developmentally disabled children? Where do they fit into her plan of "you must be the best at everything"?
i completely believe this is why i'm terrified of failure and am very risk-adverse - i was always told i was smart, and i never had to work hard for my grades. ...in college, i avoided classes that involved things i'm "bad" at, like writing papers, and now regret not taking the opportunity to take all sorts of fascinating classes. when else will i get an opportunity to learn about say, anthropology, just because?
the book nurture shock talks about this study too - really interesting book, btw!
good question!
So interesting you say that, because when I read about the study, I thought, "OMG! That explains so much!" It was like a lightbulb went on above my head.
My mom told me nearly every day of my childhood that I was brilliant. And at the risk of sounding snotty, it's true (my IQ is well above average). HOWEVER...I never really had to work at most tasks, I pick up new things very quickly, and excellent grades came easily - so when I ran across things that I wasn't immediately good at, I tended to give up on them quite quickly, and would avoid things that I suspected I wouldn't instantly excel at. It took me a while to realize I was doing that of course, and I make more of an effort these days, but I still feel that little sense of discomfort when faced with something that might prove difficult. Kind of embarrassing to admit, actually!
I'm going to go look for that book!
I'm this way, as well. While I wasn't exposed to this type of parenting as a child, I knew expectations were high. I ended up being a total people-pleaser and often struggled with fear and anxiety...in elementary school. There was an incident when I was in the 1st grade. It's totally embarrassing in retrospect, but it really showed my parents how the expectations were affecting my psyche. I even had a bit of an identity crisis in college. Since I was good at math and science, that automatically meant I was going to be an engineer of some sort. When I saw other areas of study in college, I began to question my path and wonder if everything I'd accomplished up until that point was done for me or more for the approval of my parents. Do I really want to be an engineer? Or would I be better at/happier with X, Y or Z? LOL...well it turns out that while my heart isn't in engineering, per se, my degree did open doors for me and I'm now in a field where I don't even use anything I learned in college.
ah, i just saw this article, which talks about how the Journal article is misleading, and what the book is really about.
yes, EXACTLY. sadly, I didn't recognize it until 4 or 5 years ago, and while I too, try to force myself to at least *try* things I might not be immediately good at, it's still hard.
i think you'll like the book!!
me too!! because I completely see the upside of pushing children to their full potential and think there are too many parents that go way to far in protecting their children from the realities of real life. But then I was like, uh-oh I'm missing the point.
I can say I have supervised someone (in my current profession) that was clearly raised somewhat like this. Nothing to do with his/her ethnicity. That person will hopefully succeed at another job but was not a good fit for the relaxed atmosphere I was at and it was just crazy because that person seemed unable to turn off this go at everything 110% all the time mode but clearly could have added a lot to our practice if only he had not p.o.'d every one every day. I guess in some places that is an attribute, but constantly trying to make yourself look smart (at the expense of anyone and everyone) is not how a majority of the world functions. It was so clear that person had no concept of social cues and was just a time bomb waiting to happen - we can't afford to steamroll over the wrong person and risk having good partnerships collapse because of someone's inability to correctly read the task at hand/role/assignment.
I wonder this as well. And not even going that far, but what about children that are destined for things beyond raw academic achievement? I have an amazingly creative (and successful) friend that practically flunked out of high school (probably due to an undiagnosed learning disability) but found a creative calling that she has turned into a wonderful career and probably possesses more drive (when it comes to that niche) than most people. If she had continued to be pushed at academics she would have failed (and almost did) but instead found a different avenue to pursue. I'm afraid some people would have discounted and punished her when she failed math for the upteenth time, but she had parents (and a school system) that helped her find something else. Starting with cosmetology school for HS credit, once she realized she was good at something she set more goals which lead to a BA in Fashion and now a great job as a stylist in LA - not an easy job to get which speaks to her passionate drive now.
This is a funny opposite opinion on the Chinese Mom article: The Guilty, Preoccupied, Ambivalent Western Mom, by Ayelet Waldman, author of one of my favorite parenting books Bad Mother:
https://on.wsj.com/eSW2S5
Cerclage placed @ 21w6d due to CI (IC)
Jaime & Brent
Oahu, Hawaii | Sept. 9, 2005
My Food Blog - Good Eats 'n Sweet Treats
sorry, it's taken me a while to get back to this thread, haven't had a chance to bump in a few days.
H - I'm sorry to hear how things were growing up.
totally agree that the relationship is more important than the career. and i can't believe their reaction to the article! 
hugs to you. My dad tried to teach me basic when i was really young, don't remember how old, and I just flat-out refused, hah. i was NOT interested i computers at ALL. 
my parents were never controlling (beyond just requiring good grades), so I was able to play instruments I wanted (and I ended up with piano and violin, hah - though maybe i chose them b/c that's what i was exposed to? my sister plays flute and piccolo though), do activities I wanted, etc. i've always been very thankful that they've let me make my own decisions about who to date etc (though some guidance would have been nice, as i said earlier!). anyhow, back to the programming...both my parents are math/CS, and i hated it in high school...but somehow, that's what i ended up getting my degree in! it's what i was good at 
but i don't write code anymore (and haven't for years), and I always wonder what other classes/degree I might have pursued if i had looked beyond just engineering. even without direct pressure from my parents to go into engineering, there's still the unspoken pressure to be successful, etc and I wonder how much that influenced my decision, as opposed to pursuing something i really love. what that is, i wouldn't know, because i've never really explored anything else! 