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Natural Birth
Missed miscarriage 12/26/11 at 12 weeks
Circumcision
Just curious. We did not and are still happy with our decision. I just wanted to see the results on this board.[Poll]
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This discussion has been closed.
Re: Circumcision
Eva, born on 1/2/11
Celia and Lily, born on 5/17/13
i have taken care of many adults post surgery that have had to had circumcision completed . its a horrible surgery as an adult much more difficult. these men had to have the surgery due to frequent infections happening related to the foreskin. and one older gentelmen was having partial obstruction from his foreskin.. he was >70yrs old.
we will choose to circumcise. i know its nice to be natural and not to inflict harm on your child unless absolutely necessary but i really think its better to do it now than have to have a horrible surgery later in life
just my opinion though
I completely respect this opinion, and understand where you are coming from. But what I don't get when I see people say stuff like this, that so many men get infections later on, etc, is that the US has the highest rate of circumcision for non-religious reasons of any Western nation, so do other countries, like the UK for example, have incredibly high rates of older men needing to be circumcised? My dh is from the UK and my son was born there and it isn't even an option unless you find a private doctor (and in London there were 2 I believe) to do it, so I just can't believe a whole country has men running rampant with infections from being uncirc'ed.
Good point. I wonder if because it's less common to be uncirc'd here that maybe those men with infections aren't learning how to clean themselves properly? My understanding is that the infections generally should not happen if they are cleaning regularly under the foreskin. I do kind of wonder about some of the very elderly, because maybe they have more difficulty due to physical/mental incapacities.
We're still deciding, but I definitely lean towards not doing it. I don't quite understand either why it would be "major surgery" as an adult, but not as a baby. Is it just that adult males are able to vocalize how horrible it is?
I respect others' decisions, too, but I wonder how people can say for certain that the surgery is much worse for grown men than for infants. Is it the emotional effects on grown men compounding the pain? Do parents maybe take better care of the infant than the grown men themselves? Other complicating factors like diabetes, heart disease, medications? My gut reaction is to think that people just underestimate how hard it is on the baby because he can't really communicate, but I have no first hand experience with circ to support this. (or second hand experience, I guess
sjoli - can you provide insight? (I'm honestly curious...I hope this response doesn't sound snarky)
I am not against circumcision, I just decided to leave the decision up to my son since it's a non-reversible procedure.
I think they say it is less painful for infants because of the quick healing. I have had two boys circumcised one at 7 months and one at birth. My 7 month old was circumcised in conjunction with a surgery, but he did not need any pain medication afterwards. He was crawling around once we got home. And I watched closely for any signs of pain or discomfort. My infant did not shed a tear during his circumcision.
I used to teach at a school with quite a few international students. Some of the boys were circumcised in their culture at 16 I think, and they said they would do anything to have the circumcision just be at birth.
Exactly what I was thinking, and at least as an adult they can get more than just a little topical lidocaine.
We are currently living in Germany, and my OB is also a urologist, so I figured it wouldn't be any big deal for him to perform a circumcision. DH is Jewish, so we are doing it for religious reasons, and also because my father and all 5 of his brothers were born at home, none of them circumcised at birth, and they ALL had to be done later in life--3 of them (my father included) as adults.
It is definitely not the 'norm' here as far as infants are concerned. When we asked my doctor about it, he said he has never done the procedure on an infant, and wouldn't be comfortable doing it (and believe me, I want someone doing it who has done a LOT of them!). BUT--he said he does an average of 2 per week on older boys and men, it's not at all uncommon later. So, take that for what it's worth to you.
When we contacted friends in the country to ask about it, we also found out that one of our friends has a 5 year old son who wasn't circumcised as a baby, and they are now having to have it done due to his foreskin being too tight and causing lots of pain.
I wish we didn't feel that we needed to do it (DS was circumcised at his 1 week appointment), and it is going to be much more of a production here in Europe (we will be going to a Jewish hospital in Berlin, about an hour away), but I would rather do it when this babe is an infant rather than have him have issues later on, and have to do it as a grown man. Our DS was totally healed within a week, and my father said that when he had his done (about age 27, I think), it took almost 3 weeks to heal completely, and he was in a LOT of pain. We did give our DS infant Tylenol, as well as lidocaine pain ointment before the procedure, and with each diaper change. He never seemed bothered by it.
I think there's no right or wrong decision. You just have to research, think it over, and decide what you're most comfortable with.
Lori
Wife to Morgan, Mom to Sebastian (almost 4)
Little BOY #2 on the way! Due 11.02.2010
Oh-I also wanted to say that there may be something to the not learning how to clean an uncircumcised penis properly, but my father is a physician, and extremely fastidious, so I know that his issue was not a hygienic one. With a lot of older boys and men, it's not so much a problem with 'infection,' per se, but with adhesions (the foreskin heals to the head of the penis, then tears away). It causes a lot of pain and bleeding, and that can LEAD to infection, due to the man having open wounds on his penis. This was my dad's (and all of his brothers') issue, and it is apparently quite common. So, coupled with our Jewish issue, we are also motivated by my family's history of this problem.
Lori
Wife to Morgan, Mom to Sebastian (almost 4)
Little BOY #2 on the way! Due 11.02.2010
I am not disputing that this happens later on in life with men, but I, personally, am skeptical of it being such a huge number that it warrants being a reason for circ'ing as an infant, and I say that from my experience of living in a country where it is not the norm and being married to someone who doesn't know one person who has had to have this done as an adult. It is just an interesting observation to me.
I 100% agree that this is a decision that should not be made lightly, but rather with research and thought, and it is up to every couple personally.
I'm with Andrea on this... if foreskins were so faulty- why in the countries where everyone has this problematic anatomy... haven't they learned about our wonderful circumcision habit and started doing it themselves? Are they just stupid!? Who wouldn't want to give up a really wonderful part of their sexual anatomy and functioning to avoid the risk of something happening later?
How on Earth did modern humans get to this point if a foreskin would cause problems on the very organ of reproduction!! Are you saying that prehistoric people could manage- but we modern folks haven't come up with a droid ap that will remind men to carefully wash under their foreskin yet?
oh... about washing "properly" I'm curious... have any of your women ever had "an infection" ... I have. Was it because you didn't wash "properly"? Have you every heard of ANY woman who got an infection that people speculated was caused by their reluctance to wash? Last time I got a yeast infection it was because I took a round of antibiotics for a sinus infection. They circumcise women because in those cultures women are considered unclean too. If you think men are inherently too dirty or too lazy to manage basic personal hygiene, maybe you need to take a deep breath and figure out where that is coming from- AND if you are in the right frame of mind to even raise a son if you have such LOW expectations, because I assure you they can wash their favorite body part and they don't need you to cut piece off to save them the effort.
I'm really disappointed to see such awful poll results right here on the natural birth board... for all your trust in your own body- you sure have no faith in his. Heartbroken really.
https://thefrontporchswing.blogspot.com/2010/03/to-celebrate-genital-integrity.html#links
ITA with the idea that elderly men in other countries have been getting by for generations without their culture shifting toward circumcision.
As for the age thing: circumcision as an entry into manhood is common in some Muslim cultures (done at puberty in Turkey, for one) and African tribal cultures (done in the late teens). It is a huge celebration worthy of honor and joy in those settings. In Western culture we have a bias that says circumcision after the NB stage is unbearable, but that is a cultural norm not a universal health truth.
More Green For Less Green
The only difference is that we treat our elderly men differently in this country. In most of the countries where those men have been getting by for generations, they have lived in a home with family members until their death. They had a loved one that was willing to care for them and make sure that they remain clean.
In our culture we send our elderly to nursing homes and pay someone minimum wage to change their diapers and clean them. My babysitter was a former nurses' aide and she told me horror stories about what she saw with uncirc'd men where she worked. Unfortunately, some staff she worked with would let the men sit in their own filth for days at a time and then the men would develop infections. In some cases the infections and swelling got so bad that it cut off blood supply and surgeries were necessary.
I agree that it is easy to keep the penis clean as an elderly man and all around the world people do it without problems, but you can't compare the elderly in those cultures to ours. The way we care for them is completely different. I can't imagine that every 18-year-old nurses' aide getting paid minimum wage is taking the time to properly clean the foreskin on every 90 year old man in her care.
Shed some tears for my two boys while you're at it.
The heartbreak was not over individual children (although I won't deny that hurts too), but I was speaking of my feelings for our society as a whole to have any hope for change, if the people who I would trust to be the most compassionate, educated, and willing to question are so defiant and glib in defense of genital mutilation of children despite all their other "natural" leanings.
Gloria Lemay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWUoAPo6Y2Y
I get what you're saying here, but this isn't a logical argument in favor of circumcision. This is a logical argument in favor of better conditions in nursing homes, better trained and better paid staff in nursing homes, and more directly involved families in the lives of their elderly relatives. Lets not blame the incompetence of some nursing home employees and their unwillingness to properly clean and care for a man that is unable to do so himself on the man's anatomy. Men are left for days sitting in their own filth, and you're arguing for circumcision as the solution? Do you see a problem with that line of thinking? Our culture is so terrified of the uncircumcised penis. We think it is dirty and gross when it is nothing of the sort. What I think is dirty and gross is not properly caring for a man who is unable to care for himself just because he happens to have a foreskin and it freaks a nurse's aid out. I really think you came to the wrong logical end when formulating your argument.
That said, I am not anti-circumcision and I certainly do not shed tears for your sons. I think every family has the right to make this decision for themselves. But as the mother of an uncircumcised boy, I take issue with the absence of care you described above, not the presence of a foreskin.
It wasn't an argument for it. I just hate it when the anti-circers start saying that elderly men around the world survive without having problems. I just wanted to point out that you can't compare those elderly men to the ones in our country because they are cared for completely differently.
And I agree that something needs to be done about the way we treat our elderly in this country. No one deserves to be thrown into a nursing home so that the burden of care falls on a complete stranger. It makes me sick.
I don't care what medical decisions other people make for their children, so I don't understand why other people choose to care so much about what I do with mine. And yes, I see it as a medical decision.
I guess everyone chooses their issue to get all crazy about. Like you said, I am much more concerned with the way people take care of the elderly in this country and issues like that than the fact that some parents choose to circ their sons because of their religion or the fact that it can reduce their chances of cancer.
not agreeing or dis agreeing.
but men probably don't go around "hey i'm gettin circ'ed this weekend wanna come help me out after?"
Then the argument doesn't work the other way either. You can't have people on here saying 'I know tons of men who have had to have it done as an adult and it was so painful for them'. If you don't believe men are going around telling people then the pro-circ argument there fails as well.
As for the elderly culture thing, I can tell you that the country I have experience with treats their elderly the same way the US does, and they are absolutely 1000% a non-circ'ing country for non religious reasons. So that doesn't hold either. While I see the validity of the point, I agree with the pp that this can not be a reason for circumcision.
As I have said in every post on here, I don't care what you do with your son. I thought we would circ our son until right before he was born and DH convinced me otherwise, which I am happy with, because it was the right thing for us.