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January 2011 Moms
I'm gonna call child services!!! (longish)
Ok, so I really don't intend to, but it might be difficult for me not to after today.
I met this woman back in May when she was 6 months pregnant. I found her a little annoying in some quirky ways, but I was new to the area, neither of us had any friends really, and she kept calling me so we hung out a few times. When I went to her apartment for the first time, I was horrified to discover that this 27 y.o. woman is a complete hoarder. We're talking 18 gallon buckets filled and stacked 4 high lining the entry, being used as a bed frame under 3 piled up futon mattresses, filling the 2nd bedroom, etc. Their bedroom, where the baby was going to be, was jam packed with oversized furniture and more...stuff. Oh, and let's not talk about the state of dusting, mopping, etc. All of this, on top of a completely filled storage unit. There is some "breathable" living space in the living room, but even that is still just cluttered and there are cables and such everywhere.
::sigh::
I really, really, really, don't want to be judgmental of this woman (as clearly I already am from the tone of this post). Who am I to condemn others who choose to live VERY differently? BUT, once she had the baby I simple sent a congratulatory text and never could bring myself to call or stop by because I know my daily increasing mommy instincts are going to be PISSED that there is now a child in this environment.
Well, she called me earlier this week and wants me to come over this afternoon. My heart is going to break for the precious baby being raised in this environment. My concerns aren't so immediate, but what about when this child is mobile?! There are so many things that could topple over, be unsafely climbed on, be choking hazards, etc. etc. and I just can't imagine how someone who clearly has a legitimate problem and isn't seeking to do anything about it is going to magically create a safe and stimulating environment in such a short period of time.
Just sad.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: I'm gonna call child services!!! (longish)
I would go and see how things are. If they are still horrible then you have to call. CPS is not the enemy. It is their job to evaluate a child's safety, not ours. If you are concerned about cleanliness, choking hazards, fire hazards, etc then this is in the best interest of the child. How would you feel if there was a fire and the firemen couldn't get in because of the situation there and you hadn't done anything? Obviously, you would not be at fault (you weren't the hoarder!) but you wouldn't feel good either. She honestly may not know any better. Maybe this is how she was raised and she figures if she is alive today then it can't be bad? As long as a child is taken care of medically, is fed, and not physically or sexually abused it is really hard to remove them from the home. Perhaps CPS will educate her on the health risks in her home and she will change things to ensure that child's safety. The only thing is... she may assume it was you who reported her and not want anymore contact. Sounds like you weren't very attached to her as a friend though.
I've got a degree in psych so I understand the nature of the illness, but I'm certainly not equipped to help her with it. I'm not even sure what being compassionate would look like in this situation. I've sat in the midst of her chaotic place and had really genuine conversations with her about all sorts of topics, but I don't know how to breach the severity of this one.
From what I can tell, she and her husband seem fairly equally responsible for what is in the apartment (she opened some of the bins when I was there once and the contents were pretty equally attributed to each). It could be that he wants to purge a bunch of it and she won't let him...that I don't know.
While I'd like to address the issue with her, I'm really not sure what to say or do. She came over to our place before I ever went to hers and she commented about how neat and clutter free it was. She then had no reservations about having me come over and asked if I would come. She didn't ever apologize or make excuses for the way things were, but just spoke about the amount of stuff they have fairly openly. She admits they have a lot and could probably stand to get rid of some stuff, but she doesn't see (or at least doesn't admit) to the actual magnitude of the problem. I just don't feel like I know her well enough to discuss it....I've been to her house twice and only really hung out with her about 5 times.
All I am saying is that if I were in your situation, I would have a discussion with the woman before calling CPS, that's just me. I am not telling you to counsel her but certainly a layman can have a discussion about a situation they think is harmful.
::sigh:: agreed. Like I said originally, I don't really have any intentions at this very moment of calling. Plus, I don't know the state of the place as it is today (yet). I can't really envision calling the authorities, but I wouldn't do it without having *some* conversation with her about the state of the place and their plans for the stuff as the baby gets older.
Involving CPS (or whoever) might seem in the child's best interest if the situation is as bad still as I remember. However, I'm also wrestling with the fact that this is a fellow military wife and I know if CPS gets involved there will most likely be ramifications for her DH (I believe his supervisors will inevitably get involved) and I'm not sure the full extent of that.
It's complicated and that is why I haven't called her....ignorance was sorta bliss the last month as bad as that is.
I wonder what the backstory is. For someone hit by the economic crisis this sounds like a possible "downgrade" scenario where they need a smaller space but cannot bear to part with all of the things from the previous lifestyle (that they hope to reattain). Also, as a military family--have they moved recently, are they facing another move soon, was their house seriously downgraded as part of their move, does holding on to stuff make them feel at home despite all of the moves, do they hope to get a bigger house, are they in a financial crisis?
I am not saying their house is an any way optimal, but saying it is abusive or critically dangerous (you don't say that in so many words, but that is what a CPS call implies) seems pretty extreme. Though obviously, you have seen it and I have not. You can only do what your conscience dictates, but if you call CPS what is the possible follow up? That they put the baby in foster care? Is that a better solution than living with clutter? (I don't know the answer, I am just throwing it out there as something for you to consider as you decide your approach.)
I think compassion in this situation looks like asking the questions above. I wouldn't jump to mental illness without ruling out emotional ties to stuff (which may or may not be mental illness) or financial issues first and then being a friend or suggesting resources about those.
More Green For Less Green
I hear what you're saying about the back story and I've thought about it a lot since seeing her place. The thing is, the economic crisis and downgrade theory doesn't work well because they are in a better place financially now than they ever have been before (more income, actually working off of a budget and paying down school and cc debt).
They moved a year ago and this place is a little smaller, but not enough so to explain how this amount of belongings ever possibly fit safely anywhere they have ever lived (still not even considering the apparently full storage unit). They aren't facing a move soon, but she is going to stay with her family (that live about 4 hours away) while her DH is deployed starting in Nov. Maybe that will be a better environment or spark some change, I don't know.
I'm sincerely hoping I walk into a completely different looking place today. I could never imagine actually being the kind of person to butt into someone's business to the extent of calling authorities, but I also don't know how I'm going to react to seeing a baby in that environment when I already was so concerned about it before. I'd never want to make her feel like she is not providing in her child's best interest or like my way of living is better than hers. I really just don't want to be in a position where I feel like I should call....
Without arguing the definition of hoarding or what possible stage of it these people may or may not be in...what if the amount of stuff means they can't/don't keep things remotely sanitary, stuff could easily topple on the child, there are fire hazards, choking hazards, etc.? At what point does it warrant a call to CPS?
No, not in my opinion. My parents have a lot of stuff (and I am the opposite because it bothered me so much), but they were very careful to keep me safe. Also, I think it's none of your business how clean they keep their house. There are consequences to over-cleaning too.
CPS should be for real problems of abuse, neglect, etc. Not a preference to keep more than others do or to clean under piles less than others.
The hoarders that are on that TV show are a whole different can of worms, but from the original description in this post, it doesn't sound like this qualifies.
Again...working for CPS I do have some insight on this issue. CPS is not only called for what people think are abuse or neglect. For example, beating a child or leaving them unattended in a car. CPS is also used for prevention and more often then not is used to assess RISK. CPS bases their investigations on 2 things: Risk and Safety. Safety issues are immediate issues that need addressed such as severe beating of a child. Due to the safety issues the child would be removed from the home. However, when there is a situation that involves risk, or the potential for a hazard, different measures are taken. Risk is determined by a possible scenario or situation that, if not addressed, could be come a safety issue for the child/family. In this situation, the house is apparently beyond messy or cluttered. Therefore it leads one to believe that there are potential hazards to the child. There could be mold, things falling on the child, roaches, ants, rodents etc. Therefore, CPS would most likely identify the house as a risk to the child. The preventative services offered would give the family a case worker to follow up and see what the family needs in terms of parenting instruction...mental health services...etc.
CPS has a bad repuation and I don't always agree with the decisions that they make. However, when there are people that just need a little bit of help being the best parent they can be, why not allow them to have that help?
Even though I'm not a CPS agent, I still feel like I can have opinion about this. She didn't say that she saw roaches or anything else, just clutter. I can't believe that CPS would want to waste their time on clutter. AND, I don't think that constitutes a potential hazard that is outside of the norm or reason. I live in Baltimore, where I know that CPS agents would not have time for such triviality. I'm basing this on her (admittedly judgmental) description of the lady's house. I don't know this woman IRL and I don't know her standards for cleanliness or potential hazards. I'm just going off what she said, which to me just sounds like lots of clutter.