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A theoretical playgroup question
This really isn't about my playgroup, seriously, it was just the easiest way I could think of to word it.
If you were in a playgroup where one child consistently played too rough with your child and made her uncomfortable, what would you do or say?
The child's mom attempts to correct the behavior about 50% of the time, but that doesn't work (obviously.) You also know this mom has come under criticism before because of her child's behavior and is very sensitive to it. You also have to see this mom a few times a week.
Would you say something to the mom? There's no physical harm being done, and it's not even bullying, it's just an older child trying to play way too rough with a younger kid. Or would you just try as much as possible to keep your child away from the older one?
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Re: A theoretical playgroup question
I would personally correct the child if they were too rough with my kid and I would hope that if I didn't see something that my friends would help correct Amelia. For example...if Amelia is throwing dirt at one of Charlotte's boys and Charlotte sees it and I don't I wouldn't have an issue at all with Charlotte asking Amelia to stop. I know she would do it gently by asking Amelia to please stop throwing dirt because it is dangerous.
I think when you're in a playgroup you can kinda get away with "helping" to discipline other kiddos...no, you're not dragging them to time out, but sometimes a gentle reminder from another adult is all it takes to whip a kiddo into shape.
ditto kelley. if they're not actually hurting them i would constantly remind the kid to be gentle.
Brandi, how much of that do you think is due to Luca's age though? Two year olds have such little impulse control. Would you feel differently if he was four?
j+k+m+e | running with needles
hmm. And what if a potential outsider witnessed a similar kid and thought that kid was too old to be in the playgroup. Or what if that kid was sharing that kids non-toddler appropriate snacks with your toddler.
It's very hard to deal with when the kid really loves play group.
What could you say that would help? If you have an idea of how to help, I think it'd be ok to bring it up and ask if she's tried it.
I think reminding the older child to be gentle with the little ones, playing up the "big boy/big girl" aspect of it, is good. Also, I think it's super important to try to catch the older kid doing something right and praise them. Because if they are at a younger sibling's playgroup, they might be feeling ignored or left out.
I've never had a 4 year old. I just know that my child is much more "high maintenance" than others his age. I also know that he doesn't play nice with smaller children. He doesn't get that he is bigger and can hurt them. He seems to get pleasure out of knocking them down or putting them in a head lock. It's awful! Maybe a 4 year old would "get it".
As for the snack thing. I'm not sure what they are. However, I'm not too picky about what my kid eats. Unless it's going to stain it clothes or break his teeth I really don't care. It's a once in a while kind of thing. Not like his only meal for the day. With 2 so close together, I think I've had to let some things go. Maybe it would be different if I only had 1 to worry about. We really pick our battles around here and dicipline has taken the front seat.
Is there an age range for the play group? He the child a sibling of a smaller child?
I just wanted to point out that it's super easy to blame the parent. However, she's obviously aware as she does correct him. She may just be frazzled and need some adult time and a break. If he isn't causing harm I'd let it go. Maybe said child should come share his inappropriate snack and play with Luca.
This exactly. I can relate to this completely.
But is this child too old for the playgroup? How young are the other children he's playing with? Is the child there with a younger sibling? I'm just curious.
I've been in a similar situation except the child was only about 6 months older. He was/is very aggressive and violent . BUT the mother does nothing and you are literally "not allowed" to discuss discipline with her. It sucks. Her kid also has been chewing gum since he was about 2 years old and often eats things like cotton candy for lunch *rather than*- not in addition to- anything healthy or substantive. Hmmmm. Wonder if there is a connection there.
Anyway, based on seeing that situation and also having been in the mom with the older kid situation, I agree with offering gentle guidance to the 4year old. Lots of "sweetie and honey", i.e. "it's ok to play with M, sweetheart, but that's just a little too rough." If the mom does try to correct the child, she'd probably be glad to have someone else lend a hand with the discipline. it can get tiring for her, i'm sure. that is why i related the story above. if they never try to discipline, they would probably get mad but if she does try at least half the time, she cares. the other 1/2 she's probably just exhausted.
And on days you don't have the energy to also part time parent a child that isn't yours, just remove M from the situation. make sure, even if you don't htink the mom can hear because she is probably watching out the corner of her eye for her child being judged, to leave with something nice (even if it's BS. it's all about peace in the kingdom for playgroups, i feel). "you can have this area, I think M wants to try out something new." whatever... KWIM?
if the kid was sharing his snacks, i would say "kid, thank you so much for sharing. that is really nice (always praise the positive behaviors) but toddler X can't eat these kinds of things yet. she's not as big as you and these might upset her tummy."
So it's not playgroup, it's a dance/movement class. And there aren't any age restrictions on the class and he's an only child. He and Marion have known each other for well over a year now and often, this boy is the only boy and certainly the oldest child (by a year or more) in the class. He latches on to Marion because they know each other and because she's a pretty rough and tumble little girl. He doesn't (at least not to the extent that I've seen with Marion) play the same way with Tracey.
They play chase and run around pretty well most of the time. But the last few classes, I think because there haven't been another other big boys there, he's really gotten more physical with Marion. He yanks the bows out of her hair and won't give them back, takes her stuffed animals, things like that. What kind of really got me upset yesterday was that he had her literally, in the corner of the room, swinging his arms at her like he was going to hit her, and she was crying out for me, but he wouldn't let her go. I work at this class and it was a very busy day, so I wasn't doing the best job supervising the two of them and it escalated to this before I could get there.
Usually Mar really likes playing with him, but yesterday she'd get cryish and clingy every time he got near her. I tried saying things to him yesterday, like please give her space, but every time she'd step away from me, he was all over her.
I know this mom really struggles with her son's behavior, as we've discussed it in the past. And she's, well, I won't say she's AP, because we've never had those discussions, but I know she's very much into the camp of gentle discipline, not raising her voice, trying to rationalize with him, no spanking or time outs. So I think she feels she's at the end of her rope with what she's comfortable calling discipline and what actually works for him. They're also struggling financially and she gets to take the class for free, so I think it's one of the few social activities they get to do as well.
I don't want to make waves with this mom as I think I'd go crazy myself if he were my son. At the same time, I know that he's been making Marion progressively more uncomfortable and I don't want her to pick up on his bad behaviors (we're already struggling with pushing that she learned at MDO. Sorry Tracey.) I guess the best thing I can do is just to supervise them myself, ask him nicely not to do the behaviors when I see them, and if he won't listen to me, remove Marion from the situation.
And the snack thing doesn't bother me a whole lot (although I've seen him with nuts before which give me mild concern) but I think it's just a further indication that he's just not around kids his own age enough to know how to properly interact with little ones.
j+k+m+e | running with needles
j+k+m+e | running with needles
There's no set number of kids. Usually between four to seven. Class lasts about 45 minutes and the parents dance with their kids. There is a "teacher" and basically it's songs that we dance along with, sometimes with shakers, sometimes with scarves, but all the songs have lots of words and actions and the kids are encourage to act out the songs. About half the songs are do what you want to do (run around and fly like birds, for example) and about half the songs are done in a circle (we put the scarves in the middle and pretend to plant fruits and vegetables.)
It's basically a place for them to get some energy out and to use their imaginations. They also learn to share (we take turns leading the group), follow in a line (sort of) and learn to sit still and be quiet. Class always ends with about a minute of silence.
j+k+m+e | running with needles
So, I would talk to the mom. My approach would be something like:
I know M loves to play with Kid and vice versa but the other day he was a little rough with her and now she is kind of scared (insert mom being mortified and apologizing). It's no one's fault, he's 4 and she's 2 and he is bigger and a boy. He was having fun but a switch just flipped with her and now she's a little aprehensive. maybe we can work together so they can continue to be friends but she doesn't get scared again because I like that they can interact... they have clearly connected. What do you think we can do?
I think an APIsh parent would be willing to work with this approach. Usually. THere is always a wild card but it's worth a try.
It might open up a dialogue. Maybe you can tell her about the discipline techniques that you use for M that are really successful framed in a more AP way of doing things (for what it's worth, Dr Sears is an advocate of discipline and of Time Out)
"We've done a *reflection moment <or insert other crunchy terminology here>* for M that works really well where we just remove her from the situation to the other side of the room." This is kind of what discipline is like in Montessori- the child disrupting circle time is moved out of the circle but not from the interaction, like they are put at a desk facing the circle but not allowed to sit in the circle with their peers
I think there are two parts: correcting the rough kid and telling yours how to stick up for herself. The second doesn't do anything, but I think it is important for my kids to speak up for themselves when they're being hurt or made uncomfortable.
I see these rough kids as an opportunity to teach some valuable life lessons.
The teachers separate them when things get too rough. They constantly correct any behavior that is not right. (Some kids it is sitting in chairs or being in the right part of the room.) It sounds tedious, but that's how they handle it. And if there are two kids who have a hard time together, they keep them apart.
Maybe this only works when they're older, but I talk to Lucas about which words to use when things get too rough. All his friends (and him I'm sure) eventually hurt each other. So, when I hear that someone hurt him at school by pushing or being rough, I tell him to tell the child to stop it.
We had a rougher kid at school until his family relocated. He was part of our group and we cared about him, but his behavior was an issue. We determined that Lucas needed to learn to handle him because life deals you all kinds of people - but again, he's older.
I really like this point.