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Adoption
Regarding state adoption laws
It amazes me that people think it's super easy to just read up and self educate oneself on adoption laws in a specific state. Unless you go to a law library and spend a SIGNIFICANT amount of time (since a non-lawyer will have to learn how to do legal research) researching the issue, do not assume that you know enough about state adoption law to be able to challenge an agency without consulting an attorney.
Learning about state specific law is not easy. In fact, it may be downright dangerous for a lay person to read a statute and assume they understand the law. To understand one Georgia adoption statute, I had to get on Westlaw and do a good bit of research, including reading case law and an attorney general opinion interpreting the statute. The attorney general and also the superior court's interpretation of the Georgia statute was actually exactly the opposite of what I would have thought from the plain meaning of the statute. So I actually caution everyone who thinks it's easy to just google and understand the law, that if you really do want to understand the law, the only way to be certain you are doing this is to contact an attorney who specializes in adoption law in the state where you want to adopt. I would suggest going to martindale.com and find someone who is AV rated and practices a great deal of family law.
I did a lot of google searching about Georgia law before taking the time to delve into the legal research on my own, and there is actually a LOT of inaccurate information out there, and it comes from sources that seem credible. Unless you are reading information that was written by an adoption attorney (and a GOOD attorney at that, as I saw two Georgia attorney websites with totally inaccurate information regarding Georgia adoption law - I would only trust literature from a firm with AV rated attorneys), I wouldn't give it a lot of weight.
Sure, I'm a lawyer. Even as a family law attorney practicing in Georgia, I'm not going to pretend that I can just go on Google or read a pamphlet from an adoption agency and understand Nevada adoption law. I only have Westlaw access to Georgia law. The only way I can understand the Nevada laws on my own is if I have access to case law and possibly even secondary resources like law review articles. Therefore, yesterday I left a voice message with an AV rated adoption attorney in Las Vegas to set up an appointment to discuss this specific issue.
Regarding "selling children" and this being so downright obvious, all birth mother expenses set off alarms in my mind. I think it's nuts that a woman can sign up with an adoption agency and have her rent, cell phone bills, and grocery bills paid for. I feel like this is baby selling, and yet it's perfectly legal. So just because the bio mom asking for additional funds for living expenses doesn't seem to pass the sniff test, I'm not going to jump to conclusions either.
Now I'll get off of MY soapbox 
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Regarding state adoption laws
I completely agree with you about laws. They are kind of like bible verses in that they can be easy to interpret different ways, the difference being that with laws, there is generally only one correct legal interpretation.
That's a really good analogy. Reading a statute is like reading a bible verse, where it can be interpreted in many ways. And that's what the courts do - interpret the laws. So in order to understand the law, a person needs to also understand how the courts have interpreted the statutes.
Right now little Logan is wearing one of the cute onsies you gave us. You had so much cute stuff!
Very well said!
I understand what your saying but most of these woman are basically living on the streets, going from place to place or living off of other people. If we want them to be sheltered and fed correctly for the 9 months they are carrying our babies then I think its our job to help with that. I might be the minority here and I think we paid more money than ANYONE I know in BM expenses but I always felt like it was my job to help them not only as a adopted mom to be but as a friend and christian.
Oh and this has NOTHING to do with adoption law...but the last pp in your post haha! Im not trying to say your wrong but I just have a different opinion on BM expenses
"I have four children. Two are adopted. I forget which two. -Bob Constantine
"All for Love,' a Saviour prayed 'Abba Father have Your way. Though they know not what they do...Let the Cross draw men to You...."
There are several websites out there that take the adoption statutes for each state and put them into layman's terms and they are updated on a regular basis. No one has to go and look up the actual statutes or use any legal libraries. I definitely don't think we should take that research and that should be all we believe, but I still absolutely think we need to research for ourselves and then verify the accuracy of what we think we understand with our attorney/s.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with researching and educating yourself and I stand by that.
I absolutely agree with this statement, but I think GoDawgs has a valid point. We can educate ourselves through information, but whether or not that information is credible, up to date, or from a good source is anyone's guess.
I've had other (reputable) attorneys tell my clients wrong opinions/advice before. It just happens. It can certainly happen on websites.
But then again, I know we lawyers are jaded and suspicious
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I knew the laws about birth mom expenses in our state because our agency had an attorney review them with us. We chose not to deal out of state.
I agree to an extent about the absurdity of these expenses. I'm from the camp that if a woman can parent, she should parent. I feel more strongly about this now having gone through an adoption. I wanted Q's birth mom to have every opportunity to see if she could handle parenting. It was a top priority to us that our birth mom was heavily counseled about all of her options--including looking at her financial situation and seeking out possible assistance. So giving pregnant women money during the match period (including days before birth) is somewhat contraditory to this philosophy.
Our (non-profit) agency rarely has situations where birth parents receive expenses. They just work with expectant moms to improve their lives, gain employment, etc. We did visit with some private agencies and were told that we should expect to pay the maximum the state allows. It felt uncomfortable and like a lure . . . getting women to sign with them, make a plan, and then get some financial help because gee, these folks really want your baby. Ick. I couldn't live with that.
I totally agree Willis and that is exactly what I said in my post here. But the reason I think it's being brought up over and over again, is that in the OP, no indication was given that she had even consulted an attorney in that state prior to this issue, or read up on the laws herself...she was depending on the agency to tell her what was what. And my suggestion was just to educate herself.
If she doesn't feel she can do that on her own, that's fine. But, IMO, she should have been in contact with an attorney long before the financial issue came up to make sure she understood what her rights were and what was and wasn't legal in that state -- instead of depending on what the agency told her, especially because prior to the match, she had no relationship with that agency.
Anytime we had a possible situation in another state, I looked up what statutes and their interpretations I could find online, and then would call several adoption attorneys in that area and get a free consultation to see if those interpretations were correct and also to check their rates for supporting us through an ICPC adoption and also to see what their experience was with ICPC. I never had any of them tell me what I read from the sites online was incorrect -- they often could add more information, but the covered basics were correct and they were always in agreement with one another. I'm sure there are crappy lawyers out there who might misinform, but that's why you check multiple sources.
Mrs B - Can you post your links that you use? (not trying to throw fuel in a flame, but I don't think I've seen the source you are talking about)
Just like every situation, state and agency are different, I think the same goes with BM expenses.
Ours wasn't ridiculous. We did pay medical. In our case we were more than happy to pay for a safe place for her to live, eat, receive counseling, etc. It not only helped take care of her, but also our daughter (and son). I'm not sure where she would have been otherwise.
Completely agree. Where I feel the issue comes up..in this particular case is just blindly paying the cost. The statement was made, "Of course we will pay the $1,700. We have bonded with our child." That implies that research wasn't even going to be done ON the legalities--and thus possible future demands of this issue! Of course, this is an implication and assumption that can be made from the statement--it could have meant something else.
Also, I'm sorry, but I question why a lawyer--even one from another state would hesitate so much to even read the statutes--that are out for everyone in the public to read up on. The "Law language" varies SO much from state to state that you won't even read it? Okay--I get that interpretation scares you--but going into a HUGE decision with no knowledge whatsoever on relevant information--especially in a field of which you are a confirmed expert? You aren't a layperson! Yeesh. I am sure that you will find this statement offensive and I'm sorry about that GoDawgs...
Of course, here is the one I use most frequently -- AGAIN, whatever I read here, I have verified with other sources, but so far I have not found any information as it has applied to any of my potential matches that was incorrect. The high level overviews are excellent.
Alabama - https://laws.adoption.com/statutes/alabama-adoption-laws.html
All States - https://laws.adoption.com/statutes/state-adoption-laws.html
And specifically, Nevada law regarding expenses: https://laws.adoption.com/statutes/nevada-laws,6.html
And I'll state it again, because I know it will be brought up again, always verify this information with an attorney/s. But I think it very clearly defines the various statutes and also gives you the actual reference to look up the full text. Like I said before, I have never run into an issue with these interpretations in the four states I have verified. It's certainly possible.
Who are you referring to?
I don't think you were referring to me, but I don't think anything said here has been judgy or preachy. In the OP, many of the ladies tried to nicely warn her to be careful, research, etc. and just were blown off. This is what the OP said originally -- C&P'd word for word.
"The birth parents are to sign their surrender of parental rights documents this morning, and yesterday I got a call from the agency telling me that the birth mom is demanding $1,700 more or she won't sign. Ugh. Of course we're going to cough it up - we've bonded with him and he's our son."
It's not an issue of whether the expense is ridiculous/high/whatever, the issue is that a demand was made in exchange for signing according to the OP, and that the OP was going to meet that demand to keep her son. I believe she mostly was given the benefit of the doubt and people were asking her to research, giving her advice, etc.
Ditto all of this. No one has been offensive or judgmental to the OP. Knowledgeable people were simply giving advice and advising her to be cautious, based on what she stated herself was going on. You do not have to be a rocket scientist, or a lawyer, or anything else, to be able to read a law and understand when something is or is not against that law. How is showing concern and offering advice preachy? Saying such is just defensive.
For my daughter I would have paid a hell of a lot more than 1700 after the fact...legal or illegal I would have done it.
Flame away if you want but its the truth and I would feel 10000% ok with it.
Espcecially since the birthmom is putting more importance on less than 2 grand over her child I would NOT want them raising the baby. Period.
br
I'm not one to get into drama or be rude on the boards, but this is something I am compelled to comment on. This is disrespectful to all those involved in the adoption triad. I am absolutely horrified that someone would do something illegal for a baby. Ethics and morals may vary slightly from person to person (how much is too much in birth mother expenses, at what point is it okay to do TPR, etc), but doing something illegal is never okay. Never. Adoption only works if there are rules and laws in place and those rules and laws are followed. Otherwise HUMAN BABIES will be trafficked.
I can NOT believe you said this.
This was my original warning to GoDawgs. The thing is, TPR CAN be revoked if all the right rules/laws were not followed in obtaining TPR. I don't want that for GoDawgs because I can't imagine the pain she would have, so I am glad to hear that she is working with a lawyer to clarify the issue. That is the right course of action...not to just pay blindly.
I believe she's referring to me. I only said Go might find my statement offensive b/c she has found other statements of mine offensive in the past--and I didn't mean them to be.
Just to be clear I don't find my statement offensive, judgy or preachy at all. I find them to be honest. I find the entire situation to be ethically and morally upsetting in a number of ways--and clearly it has set the board off..so I'm not the only cheese standing alone here....When you see or feel red flags flying up all around you--you don't just keep running by!
Said perfectly Sally J. This is also IMO why adoption sometimes receives such a horrible reputation. There are many out there who still think that we are "buying" our children by paying agency fees, BM expenses etc. Why would we want to ad to this misconception?
100% agree with you. After I went back and re-read your reply, I figured it was probably you Joe was referring to. Yea, nothing you said was preachy. Actually, the judging comes from those who just assume that MrsB and others are not intelligent enough to read and discern laws for themselves. And no one ever said they were going to go off of their understanding alone. It's ridiculous the assumption was made that people aren't capable of doing research for themselves to better their knowledge and add to what they learn from attorneys, etc. Yes, the whole situation is full of ethical and moral questions. I hope everything works out.
Ok I hear you on the feeling that if I ran out and told the world that I would pay any amount for my child it would give a bad rep to adoption. And I fully admit I am jaded (try to make longgg story short) OUr daughter birthfamily is way messed up and they have a another child slightly older than DD and seeing how she is raised is bad enough but imagining my baby girl being treated like that brings me to my knees. So thats why I say (figuring we may not know the whole story) that I can understand why GoDawgs would hand over the money.
My son is the adoption cliche (miracle pregnancy after adoption) and we would pay any amount of money to keep him safe..He had some health issues when he was born and we paid a lot to get it all sorted out.
I see a woman that is trying to sell her baby as dangerous for that baby....If that baby was mine and in a dangerous situation I would pay any amount of money I had to to keep them safe.
Does that make better sense?
br