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If you're not a fan of the circus...
How do you feel about Sea World? I've been watching some of the interviews with the trainers in Orlando and they keep using phrases like "working the animal". For some reason it's just now dawning on me that, for me, these parks aren't unlike circuses (which I'm opposed to) and I don't think I'll be taking my children there.
I'm just wondering, if you're against circuses are you against Sea World as well? (FWIW, I'm not totally against zoos because they do do conservation work and help keep endangered species alive. Though I'm sure a lot of zoo animals would be happier in their natural habitat. Sorry for the tangent 
.)
This discussion has been closed.
Re: If you're not a fan of the circus...
I know this is terrible but when I read that article all I could think about was Free Willy.
About Sea World....aren't the animals raised in captivity? Its not like Willy where they take a full-grown whale from the ocean, right? I'm not sure it makes a difference, but raising them in captivity reminds me of a pet. My dog might have enjoyed a life in the wild like Buck. But he's also happy sleeping on my couch all day. Maybe its similar for the whales and dolphins.
ETA: and now I have that stupid song in my head....Hold me, like the river Jordan. And I will then say to thee, you are my friend.
I think to me, Sea World is different because they're not harming the animals and most of the tricks the animals do (all the ones I've seen, anyway) are things they would naturally do in the wild. Jumping out of the water for a dolphin is natural - walking on their hind legs is NOT natural for an elephant. They also rehab hurt animals, work on conserving species, and other great things for marine life.
Would it be better for these animals to live in the wild? Perhaps. But I'm also not going to deprive my child of a fun, childhood activity because it might be better for the animals at Sea World to live in the wild. Unlike circuses, where I think the animals are treated cruelly and treated abusively during their training, I have yet to see evidence that Sea World does the same.
Yeah, I won't do DolphinQuest either. But if you're back in Hawaii ever, look into taking a snorkeling trip with dolphins in the wild. We couldn't touch them (obviously) but it was amazing! Our guide drove us around until we found a pod of dolphins and then we all got in the water and snorkeled around for awhile. After about 30 minutes, the dolphins got comfortable with us and started surfacing around us...absolutely breathtaking. There were instances where they were close enough to touch - so, so amazing!
My views are similar to libbyann's. The wild may seem like a fun and wonderful place but let's face it, there's a much greater risk of them dying out there too. Pretty sure Sea World has strick standards of how they treat the animals.
From their website "How does SeaWorld help conserve wildlife and their habitats?
The non-profit SeaWorld & Busch Gardens Conservation Fund (SWBGCF) works on behalf of wildlife and habitats worldwide. The goal of the SWBGCF is to encourage sustainable solutions by supporting critical conservation initiatives worldwide. The SWBGCF has sponsored a number of projects on aquatic and terrestrial animals, animal rescue and rehabilitation, habitat protection, and conservation education.
? The SWBGCF conducts grant awards each year. Since 2003, the SeaWorld & Busch Gardens Conservation Fund has granted $1.3 million to more than 100 projects in 25 countries on six continents. Selected projects must be science-based, solution-driven, and community-oriented - attributes needed to achieve effective and long-term conservation success. Groups working on animal conservation projects are invited to apply for a SWBGCF grant. Projects are carefully selected by a diverse mix of wildlife experts, scientists, business leaders, and educators."
I know 1.3mil is like a drop in the bucket these days but it's still a good thing. I think they've learned a good deal about the animals while in captivity too. Perhaps things that may help the ones in the wild in the future? I dunno. I need to go pump and get Abby off to MDO! Why am I here!?!!
Good points about the conservation efforts and taking the parks on a case-by-case basis.
I guess it just bothered me that there are reports that the whale that killed the trainer had lots of behavioral issues and had hurt people in the past. If that's true, then I'm very concerned that they're not (at that park at least) 100% concerned about the well being of the animal or the trainers for that matter.
i used to have a season pass to sea world when i lived in san diego. i loved going there. it wasn't until this morning that i really started to think about what those animals go through and how different their lives are in captivity. i know that they are treated well but it still kind of makes me sad at the same time. i get alli's point above though, that they don't know any different (just like we have housepets).
i just found this article on fox. idk, i read that killer whale had killed two people before the accident yesterday which, imo, is a red flag that this animal is bored and that captivity has not been the best thing for it. it really makes me sad because the whale doesn't realize what he is doing.
i'm not sure how i feel about it - i know that sea world really strives to treat their animals well. but they're still taking a wild animal out of its environment for the entertainment of others.
this is true of sea world as well. the majority (if not all?) of their animals come to them as rescues or are born in the care of man, so they really wouldn't have much of a chance of surviving on their own, in the wild.
i worked at sea world for several years and held a management position. i was privy to all of the behind-the-scenes stuff. the animals are well loved and treated like pets - i definitely never saw anything that would compare to the cruel treatment alleged of circuses.
This is good to know. What do you think about the reports of past aggressive behavior by this particular whale? Do you think they were sacrificing trainer safety and the animal's well being to get a good show?
for sure. but give it a nice cushy life, and retire it so to speak. i really don't think they should have continued to use it as entertainment.
this particular whale came from the icelandic seas - or at least this is what I heard on the news this morning. the US no longer allows animals to be taken from the ocean so I guess it's no longer the case, but it's obviously too late for the older animals.
I think if the whale were to be let free, it probably wouldn't last long in the wild...but it made me really sad to see such a large animal in a relatively small swimming space. ;(
ok and now i'm looking for articles that said this whale had killed 2 ppl previously and can't find any...maybe i heard it on the radio.
i'll let you know if that can even be validated...
I look at it the same way I would look at a dog who was being disobedient. You don't want to reward the behavior, and you certainly want to take safety measures, but you also don't want to completely isolate the dog or make him miserable. The 'killer whales' really enjoy performing - it's playtime for them.
I loved that when I'd go to the stadium and be the only one there, they were in the back tanks doing the same things that they do in the shows. It was obvious they were having fun.
From what I've read, this particular KW wasn't allowed to swim with others (animal or human), but they still let him(her?) play. I have no doubt they're reexamining that choice. I think it was a lose-lose situation because the KW was probably already feeling pretty isolated and so it would have been cruel to keep him from the show, but then obviously letting him perform wasn't a good thing either. IDK. I wonder what they're going to do with him now.
And how the other trainers feel. I don't know how I'd feel if my dog killed someone...
omg, found it. here's the article i heard about: https://cfnews13.com/News/Local/2010/2/24/woman_at_seaworld_not_breathing.html.
so yes, this whale had killed 2 other people AND they were still using it for entertainment. that's what really upsets me!
"Tompkins said the whale finished up a great session, where he performed well, and Brancheau was petting him on the nose, when her ponytail swung in front of the whale. That was when Tilikum grabbed her and pulled her underwater, where he held her."
and
Her death is the third that has been blamed on Tilikum Because of that, Tompkins said his staff was very careful how they worked with ?Tilly.?
I saw an interview this morning with one of the other trainers, and he said that the KW was performing when the trainer's long ponytail swung around and hit him. He grabbed her ponytail and drug her down under the water.
in the comments section of that same article:
Brancheau?s death is the third that has been blamed on Tilikum.
Feb. 21, 1991
Keltie Byrene, 20, slipped and fell into Tilikum?s whale pool. She was dragged, screaming across the pool and repeatedly submerged. Other trainers attempted to rescue her, but she eventually drowned.
July 5, 1999
A man hid inside SeaWorld Orlando after it closed, then jumped into Tilikum?s tank. He was found dead the next morning.
Even after that incident, trainers had said Tilikum had a history of that sort of thing.
?We do not consider this a safe animal for our own trainers to interact with in the water,? SeaWorld Vice President Vic Abbey said following the 1999 death. ?He has had a history before coming to SeaWorld OrlandoI don't think Sea World is anything like a circus as others have pointed out. They do research, work with the animals and overall treat the animals with love, dignity and respect. I do know as others have pointed out that they are a very good organization with the best interest of the animals in mind. And I do believe that now all their animals are animals raised in captitivy or animals that could not survive in the wild.
While I think it's very sad the trainer died, I also think it's a risk inherent in working with wild animals. There's a risk to having a dog in your home, no matter how tame it seems - much less working wth a killer whale. I think Sea World will obviously examine what happened and see what type of adjustments need to be made for their trainers and animals. But I also think that unfortunately, when you hold that type of job, that is a risk that is there.
Ditto abrooks 100%. And to be honest, three incidents over twenty years doesn't seem like that much to me, if you consider that we are talking about a wild animal that is predatory in nature.
I agree that the number of deaths assigned is definitely media sensationalism. Also, while I think it's terrible that she died, they knew he wasn't social anymore and that's why he was off-limits.
I can't get statesman.com to load, but essentially what I read was they didn't assign responsiblity for the first death bc there were three whales playing. He was involved but not necessarily responsible. The second death was caused by hypothermia. The man was bruised, but they found him on the whales back, not mangled to death.
I don't think Tilly was being predatory in any way. It's not like he tore the people to bits. He just doesn't understand that the human 'friends' he has can't play like he does. He has no idea that they can't hold their breath as long. It's a massive animal interacting with a tiny human. Accidents are going to happen. It's a risk they take. I don't know enough about them to speak to how to avoid death when a KW gets too excited, but it seems like something could be done. For example, small air tanks the trainers could wear in case they are drug under. IDK, I just hope the animal isn't put down for an accident.
I have large dogs, very large. I get injured by them on occassion when they get over-excited. It's a risk I take. And my 145 lb. male, Hank, could easily kill me if he wanted to. Perfect example, my husband has a black eye right now because Hank smacked heads with him while they were playing ball.
And if I remember correctly - the second person that died wasn't an employee. He hid out until after hours and then went into the whale's area. His death is completely his own fault.
I'm going to say something that's probably obvious: killer whales are wild animals regardless of their birth place. The instinct to behave in a way that ensures that animal's survival is its only motive. This doesn't mean that they are not intelligent, or don't enjoy "fun" and play (which they do.) It just means that whatever the circumstances that led for this specific animal to react and kill three people are rooted in protective instincts that are inherent and can't be trained out or bred out.
The point is that SeaWorld, zoos, aquariums, etc. are poor substitutes for the animal's natural environment. Animals are under a consistent level of stress because their artificial environment is not under their control. I'm not surprised when these accidents occur. I'm upset that the public understands little about wild animal behavior and proceeds to vilify the animal (no one has done that here. I'm just saying that sentiment pops up.)
I applaud the effort of humans to try to preserve animals through research and conservation, however, to expect a wild animal to behave in a manner beyond their instinctual actions is unfair.