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Parenting
If you do the whole love & logic, natural consequences thing, I have a ?
What's the natural consequence for gouging my kitchen table with a black pen, such that even the few black lines I do manage to scrub out leave a scribbly indentation all over the table? I told Alex I am still thinking of what needs to happen. DH says no writing implements - pens, pencils, crayons, color wonders, etc for a week or two. I say that won't work since I took away his Tag pen for doing the same effing thing to the footboard of his bed with it and this happened two days later.
Jenni ~~Alex & Avery ~~ 6/13/06~~Adam ~~3/26/08
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Re: If you do the whole love & logic, natural consequences thing, I have a ?
He's 3 years old, and because it didn't work the first time, you're 100% certain that it won't work if you try it again?
I just went to a L&L seminar last weekend---this was the advice given: don't put any kind of timeline on the consequences. If you tell DC they are losing out on art supplies for 2 weeks--they can wait you out and know that no matter what they do, you will eventually give them their stuff back. You have to always keep them wondering a little about the consequences in order for them to really make an effort to understand their own misbehavior and figure out for themselves what they need to do. so what you should do is say that the art supplies are going away because it seems as though DS does not know how to use them responsibly or appropriately. But you very lovingly and sincerely assure him that big kids know how to use their toys/art supplies appropriately and that you are sure that as he gets older, he will learn how to be more responsible, too. You also assure him that you will give him plenty of opportunities to show you that he knows how to be responsible and not damage your property with his other toys and when you see that he is ready, he can have the art supplies back. The whole thing has to be done with the attitude and tone that you are taking his stuff because you are giving him an opportunity to learn and grow, not because you are trying to punish him. It's up to you decide if your son is ready to get his things back in a week or three months.
The other thing you can do is "go big." Tell him that he has damaged your table and it needs to be repaired, which may require having a professional sand it down and refinish it or whatever you think will work. Smile at him and tell him lovingly that you are not upset at all, because it won't cost you a thing. Then ask him how he plans to pay for the damages. You could suggest that perhaps he needs to "sell" his art supplies at a garage sale or whatever to pay for the damage he has caused. Then, DON'T replace them. He needs to earn enough money on his own to buy back any of the art supplies he cares to replace.
The seminar was given by Jim and Charles Fay--the authors of the L&L books. They swear up and down that even a preschooler is capable of paying to repair any damage they cause--whether it's by selling their possessions or doing extra work to earn the money.
Am I the only person who thinks this is completely over the top and a little on the
end of things? Jesus. It's a 3 year old! It's very chilling to imagine a poor preschooler selling his crayons at a yard sale. Mean, imo.
(obviously not a dig at your - 4S. But the author).
I knew this was going to rile some people up. There is no easy way for me to explain it in writing. The authors of the book were very clear that the love part comes first. You would smile and assure the child you are not mad because the goal of discipline is NOT to punish and be mean, it is to provide opprtunity for your child to grow, mature. I know it sounds rather maniacal, but really, the authors insisted that it had to come from a place of sincerity. Even when disciplining, your child needs to see you as loving and benevolent, but still firm. You don't want to be a raving lunatic whose scares the crap out of the kid. and obviously, you start small and work up to more extreme consequences (which is what I meant when I said you could "go big"--I was thinking it in my head but didn't type out that "going big" was the end of a progression.)
Also, the other part that the authors were big on was making discipline "actionable." Most people give timeouts and say it will last for x minutes. Or they take an item away for 2 weeks. All that teaches the kid is that he just has to bide his time and then all is well again. But if you make the discipline based on the child doing an action, such as repairing the damage he caused, then the child learns that his actions have consequences and maybe he needs to change his behavior. it doesn't need to be selling his art supplies, although that is one option they suggested. You could have your child work with you to sand the table down, Or you could say, "since I know you are not able to help fix the table, I will do it. It should take about 3 hours for me to fix. Because I will be spending 3 hours on the table tomorrow, we'll have to miss out on going to the park like we had planned."
In the end, it's up to each parent to decide what works best for them and their child. And in a lot of cases, the end result is almost the same as in a non Love & Logic households. Take the example above. The mom could see her messed up table, scream and yell and say "you're grounded and we aren't going to the park!' And there will probably be transgressions every other day that result in yelling and missed park trips. Or, as an alternative, the mom could explain it like I did earlier. Either way, the result is the same, a missed park date. But one way it is punitive and the other way it is showing the consequenses of the boy messing up the table.
Also--to be fair, the example the authors used involved selling a Wii on Craig's List when a child couldn't use it responsibly. Granted, it is a little over the top to sell crayons at a garage sale, but that was the closest analogy I could come up with in the situation posted above that was similar to the example from the class. I know nobody is going to set up a garage sale over night just to sell some crayons--that was kind of just for the sake of making an example.
I agree with her ideas--he should help clean up the mess (even when he can't do it right, it's important that they learn to fix what they did wrong). I also wouldn't take away his writing utensils until he's older--I would take them away, and I would tell him that his bad choices are what made you take them away. When he knows how to control himself better, he can have them back--because really, it has nothing to do with age, and everything to do with self-control (which is different for every child, but this certainly is a motivator here).
I also agree that natural consequences are usually harder, but it still doesn't make me think a random punishment would be very successful here.