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Adoption
MayDayGirl
member
HTT: spanking
MayDayGirl
member
in Adoption
This applies to all, not just foster parents:
In our program we're not allowed to spank (is this true for working with the state?)
But I recently had a conversation with my SIL who spanks and said she pretty much doesn't tell any of her friends because they all think it's terrible, and spanking is really "out" these days. She lives in a big city and even in her church they say "watch yourself, close windows if you do it etc et" and it seems so strange to me!
Since we can't spank S and Bright is too little, I just had never been aware of that.
I talked to my sister who lives in a small town and she said all her friends spank, she doesn't know anyone who doesn't.
So what's the deal? Do you think spanking is ok or bad? Would you/will you/do you do it?
Married on 3.20.2004. It took 30 month, 2 failed adoptions and IVF for our first miracle. We have had 9 foster kids since he was born and started the domestic adoption process when he was 10 month old, we had 4 failed matches in that time. After our daughter was born we brought her home and spent 2 weeks fearing we might lose her because of complications that came up. But Praise God all went through and she is ours forever! Expecting again after IVF
This discussion has been closed.
Re: HTT: spanking
No spanking, swatting, biting back in our house. Not only did we have to sign something stating that we would never spank (and we have an open foster license until next week or so when we finalize), but we don't believe in it.
Both of us were spanked as children, and we believe that violence begets violence. Our oldest is a pretty easy kid (and very sensitive) so time-out or toy removal is more than enough. DS#2 is only 18 months, so too little.
You probably have to define spanking. I've seen various definitions. In my mind, spanking is a hand swatting the bottom. We do not plan to spank. However, I also do not think that those who do spank are bad parents or abusive. I just prefer to try other, hopefully more effective, discipline methods.
There was a similar discussion on another board this week, where ladies were defining swatting the hand away from danger to be spanking. If my son was reaching for a hot pan or a lit candle or something, I would probably swat his hand away (or just pick him up) out of instinct. I do not consider that to be spanking, but some people do.
In the end, I think you have to tailor your discipline approach to the individual child. The same approach will not work for all children.
Before I had children I always thought, a little swat on the butt was appropriate discipline mostly because that's what my parents did. I figured I survived and I'm fine, so why shouldn't it be okay?
Now that I am a parent, I think it's a terrible way to discipline. I don't see what hitting your child teaches them other than to fear you. I want respect from my children not fear. I also see how much they mimic us and I'm sure that telling them no hitting by spanking their butt only further reinforces that hitting is okay.
There are so many more positive ways to discipline (we primarily use Love and Logic type of discipline) and I do judge people who hit their kids (in any way).
I don't think spanking is very effective. I never avoided getting in trouble to avoid spanking. I just avoided getting caught. I personally think that it works better to let children suffer the consequences of their actions rather than preventing them from every upset or punishing everything they do.
This does not mean I will not guide my children. There will be more discussions in my home than there were when I was a child.
We, too, had to sign a contract stating that we will never use any form of corporal punishment (right down to denying food or locking a child in a room).
Personally, I think that spanking is not a good tool for everyday behavior modification/discipline. It teaches kids that some violence is okay and that if it is used by the right authority or in the right setting it's not really violence at all. It also breeds resentment and future resistance/rebellion.
Do I think there's never I time that I would have spanked my child if I didn't swear not to? No. I'm sure in the moment, when danger is imminent, I might swat my child who keeps reaching for the stove or running into the road. But, I do think that doing anything "in the moment" is likely to breed less useful or long-term results than deliberating and finding a more appropriate lesson that is meanful to the child.
Oh, and I've always wondered for those who think spanking or hitting your child is okay...
Would you ever hit a coworker to teach them something?
Would you ever hit your parent or sibling to teach them something?
Would you ever hit your spouse to teach them something?
What about a friend or a stranger?
Then how is it ever okay to hit a defenseless child whom you love more than anything in the world? I cannot for the life of me wrap my head around this logic.
Sally, Pepomnt, get out of my head!
Love and Logic, Positive Discipline, and similar methods are we what we plan to use in our home.
"HT" stands for "hot topic" and the final letter stands for the day, because we have a fairly regular "Hot Topic Tuesday."
Do you consider the example I listed in my previous post to be spanking? The example was smacking my son's hand away if he was reaching for a hot pan or a burning candle. I would not be smacking his hand as a punishment, I would be swatting his hand out of harm's way to prevent him from getting burned. I have not actually done this or been in a situation like this. I was just using it as an example, since this was a discussion on another board this week.
Precisely. Though my kids are still very young, the way we discipline DS is very, very different from what DD responds to. With DS we have always had to be very hands-on - he does not respond well to time-outs, removing toys, etc. But with DD, a dirty look is all she needs to stop a behavior.
I have spanked DS twice (just last week actually). But we very quickly found that he repeats things - the very next day when the dog was barking, he hit her. And when DD took his toy that evening he hit her too. This may very well be "normal" 3-year old behavior, but my point is that he'd never done that until I spanked him. So for now he won't be spanked.
I fully believe, however, that there are children for whom spanking is a perfectly acceptable form of punishment. It's certainly not for every child or for every parent, but when it's used appropriately on a child with the "right" temperament, I see no problem with it.
We had to sign something that said we wouldn't use corporal punishment, or as our SW put it, "Don't beat your child."
I was spanked as a child, and I turned out fine. My parents had a ritual to it. You were spanked (open hand only, no implements), sent to your room to cry it out, then the parent would sit you down, ask you why you thought you were punished (we were wrong half the time), got a hug and "I love you", and life went on. In very short order, just the threat of a spanking was enough to get us to behave. My dad said he preferred spanking to being sent to his room (his mom's discipline tactic), because then he would just stew about stuff and never got it out of his system.
Interestingly enough, now that my parents are grandparents, they don't like spanking, won't do it to their grandchildren, and don't want to see their grandchildren spanked.
DH was never spanked as far as I can tell.
I agree with those who feel there are more effective ways to discipline a child than by spanking. Will it happen on occasion? I wouldn't be surprised, but I see it happening WAY less often with our kids, if at all. I think we are more likely to use things like time-outs, removal of privileges, and I'm more and more leaning toward positive reinforcement (praise for good behavior). We've had to discuss this a lot in doing our homestudy, and that's where we've landed.
In the litigious society we live in, I could see someone calling DCS or the cops if they saw a parent spanking their child. There was a brouhaha when the pictures came out of Kate Gosselin spanking her daughter.
I don't think this example is appropriate discipline either. I think in this case the child would focus more on the fact that their parent, whom they love and trust, just hit them, not that they are getting ready to get hurt.
A more appropriate way to handle it is to take hold of their hand, get down to eye level, say 'Hot! Don't touch, it will hurt!' and then redirect them. Does it take more time? Yes. Is it more effective and also teaches them the desired lesson? Yes.
Me! Me! I love these topics!?
Developmental psychologists seem to agree that spanking doesn't really "teach" the ?child much as I (think) Sally said..however?as someone else said, in dangerous situations--say the child is reaching for a hot pan, has run out into the street etc--and you haven't BEEN spanking as a punishment--it IS effective because it is immediate and makes an impact (no pun intended) of course there's a difference between a spank/swat and beating a kid senseless or leaving bruises/marks too.
In our developmental psych class we watched ?video where parents were spanking their kids and this one family--sheesh, they spanked to the point of it being thoughtless! ?It was a 20/20 video on spanking and after the show aired the kids went to foster care for awhile! One thing about child abuse is that it's extremely hard to correct. Parents who get nailed for it will go to classes where they learn how abuse is defined--as anything from swatting/spanking to punching and biting and they will STILL say afterwards.."That's not me." But it is!?
I just have to say one more thing about corporal punishment.
I read this article in Newsweek recently about this school in Georgia where the principal had brought back the paddle! The school was so bad with behavior problems teachers were quitting and it was just a mess. So the principal would paddle the kids for things like lying, fighting, cheating, stealing etc. Well that business has stopped---like dropped 90% and the school has gone from a bottom 50% to raising in the ranks in terms of academics. Teachers who previously left have come back...and the principal hasn't had to use the paddle in over a year. ?It's definitely old school....but it seems to be working...Any thoughts on that? ?
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Ditto. I was thinking about this the other day. I was spanked as a child. Honestly, I can only remember 1-2 spankings although I know there were more. However, I clearly remember the times that I had to sit on a kitchen chair in the middle of the living room for 5 minutes. Everyone's day went on around me, and I had to sit there being the center of attention. It was the worst possible punishment I could receive.
My point is that I agree that there are more effective ways to discipline your child than spanking. The "chair" approach probably would not work for all kids, but there are other approaches that would be equally as effective and not painful.
Hitting an adult is not the same as spanking a child who does not yet have the skill of reasoning and long-term consequences. Your comparisons are not apples-to-apples.
Tell me how you would have handled the situation DS presented me with last week: We're in the driveway playing with sidewalk chalk. I have the baby sitting on my lap, and DS is drawing quietly. Suddenly he stands up, gives me a mischievous sideways glance, and starts edging away from me. I say, with a very sharp tone, "DSname, stay RIGHT here." He screams "NO" and takes off in a dead run for the street. Meanwhile, a giant diesel truck is barreling down our residential street... As I shoved poor DD off of my lap and RAN after my son, I screamed his name loud enough that the driver of the truck heard me (and probably saw my panic-stricken run). He slowed down but never saw DS because there was another truck parked on the side of the street and DS was running out in front of it. He narrowly avoided killing my son. You'd better believe that the second I got my hands on my child I bent him over my knee and walloped his a$$. And then hugged him and praised God that he wasn't killed.
Long story short, it's fine and good to say that spanking accomplishes nothing positive. But there are absolutely real-life circumstances where a child HAS to learn swift, certain and sometimes physically painful consequences to their actions. All the reasoning in the world wouldn't have made a difference to my son. He needed to be shocked and punished at that exact moment.
I totally agree with this.
We plan on using Love & Logic and hope to avoid spanking as much as possible. But I think that punishment and behavior modification has to be tailored to each child. There are some children who will modify their behaviors based on a look you give them, or a firm word. But others require toys taken away, or time outs. And then there are situations like the above where a child puts themselves in danger -- where a spanking or swat (with the hand, no implements) is appropriate.
With older children, spanking works, especially if it's administered by someone other than parents who are supposed to love the child. But it works because it instills fear, not because the children learn responsibility or why certain behavior is "bad." When these children leave the school, what's to keep them from lapsing into unacceptable behavior? Will they always need a centurion to watch over them with the threat of violence to function appropriately in society?
And what's it teach them about the use of violence to make someone comply with your will?
I do not approve, and NO BODY outside my family (and really, not even my family) better lay a hand on my children. Discipline them appropriately while they are under you care/in you house--sure! But using physical force? That is the surest way to raise my wrath!
We don't plan on spanking, however, when we started talking about parenting styles I told DH I wasn't against it-because I was spanked. However, my views have since changed, but I do believe that there are some situations where it may be appropriate-as a complete last resort. With that said I will say this... with DH being a special education teacher, DH sees the ramifications of spanking going to far-and kids learning violence from that and bringing it to school with them. We plan on using other methods of discipline such as Love and Logic.
I just have a question about this story and I promise I'm not being judgy..in your previous post, you mentioned that after these two spankings this week your son had started hitting others...and you didn't think the walloping was effective..but here you..kinda?defended it..right??
So do you think it was effective? Or not? ?
I read that article too and thought it was very interesting. It didn't change my stance on spanking though. I think I had more of an issue with the fact that parents didn't seem to be disciplining their children and instead were leaving it to the school to do. Also I went to school in a very poor area and some of my classes were out of control and others I had teachers who had the respect of their students. These teachers could put anyone in their place with just a look. I know they always set high expectations for all students and then sat down with students who did not meet those expectations to discuss what went wrong. So I still stand by that there are better ways to discipline rather than hitting.
i would not do it. everything i studied in college was to prepare me for being a mother so i spent extra time on child psychology. i haven't heard one credible dr. who says spanking is ok. why would i want to teach my child to hit when he's frustrated with someone?
the only time i think it's not abusive to cause physical pain to your child is if you grab him as a reflex to keep him from danger, like if he was running into the street or something. of course, that wouldn't be on purpose so i guess that doesn't count.
when i was younger my mom spanked me a few times. i always told the truth even when it got me in trouble but a couple of times she thought i did something that i didn't do. she said to apologize or i'd get a spanking. i took the spanking every time and it didn't faze me a bit.
Well, I don't think the principal just swatted the kids, told them "this behavior is bad, now go on your way," I believe they then had a conversation about why a certain behavior is inappropriate.
The principal was conflicted about the use of the paddle.?
Here's the article.
https://www.newsweek.com/id/195119?
Oh and it was South Carolina. My bad. ?
my kids will probably hate it but i will explain everything to them and allow them to ask any questions they want. just because i'll be the mother doesn't mean i have the right to force them into things without telling them why.
My point is that you would never hit someone who you casually know or even someone you love (like yours spouse or family) because it's not acceptable. Why is it acceptable to hit your child then? I also don't understand the point that it's okay to hit because the child doesn't understand reason or consequences. How does hitting help the child learn how to reason or learn consequences?
As for your example I think that your DS didn't learn that running in the street is unsafe or scares mommy and I doubt that spanking him taught him to not do it again. In fact you said it only taught him to hit the dog and your DD.
In this case, I would have reacted the same way as you did, minus the spanking. Seeing my face full of fear and hearing it in my voice would have taught something more to my child. I also would have explained to him/her that running in the street is unsafe, I would show him the big truck that almost hit him, explain that he could have gotten seriously hurt and that he scared mommy. I would have then showed him how to cross the street by looking both ways and holding mommy's hand. I would probably have to cover this many, many times especially at a young age.
I reiterate my point. Will it take longer on my part than spanking? Yes. Will it teach the lesson I desire my child to learn? Yes.
I haven't read the article yet, but I don't think it matters that they had a conversation. If you hit a kid, they will be angered by you. It doesn't matter if you tell them where a secret treasure is hidden in that moment immediately before or after--they will block you out.
Sallyjo, I totally agree.
I also make it a point to communicate to my son (who is 4--I do it with the baby, too, but I don't think it's as helpful) what is expected. We live in a condo, so we play on the sidewalk, etc. And DS#1 knows that him staying out of the street is central to being allowed to play outside. If he doesn't listen, or does things he knows he's not supposed to, fun ends immediately. We talk about it before hand--where we're going, how we act, etc. He knows that no listening=no fun.
Sorry, I realize I worded that poorly. The driveway incident happened about 10 days ago. DS did not do any hitting after that spanking. It was several days later, when he got spanked again for something else, when he started hitting. So in the first incident, I do believe it was effective. It got his attention (see below) and communicated to him that running from me was a very, very bad choice. He was extremely obedient for the next few days! The second time, I realize it was not effective - I spanked him during a complete meltdown. Normally I just walk away from him when he's like that, but he was in the middle of a poopy diaper change and poop was getting smeared all over my carpet, my pants, and as I was trying to just get the dirty diaper back on so I could walk away, I got kicked in the throat (with a poopy foot)... as a very last resort I spanked him. It didn't help the situation and it was after that we saw a problem. So he will not be spanked out of frustration or out of ordinary discipline; he will only be spanked if a dangerous situation arises again.
And to noonecare - no my son was not an already scared 3 year old when he got spanked in the driveway. He was a laughing, oblivious-to-any-danger, still-trying-to-wrench-free-and-run 3 year old.
Because I'm feeling attacked (not by you tct), I'm going to keep going with this. I've seen this theme a lot in this thread. Expecting a child of a certain age to modify their behavior because you've explained something is unrealistic. Say you've got a 2-year old who keeps climbing on the counters. Over and over and over. Or a 6-year old who thinks it's funny to throw rocks at passing cars. Explaining stuff to kids, even allowing them to ask questions, is NOT going to work for a LOT of stages in a child's life. You'll make yourself blue in the face and want to rip your hair out... and meanwhile your child's behavior could be putting them in danger, or placing unnecessary stress on your marriage, etc. Sometimes, for some children, a spanking is 100% warranted and gets the job done. Judging parents for doing what they feel is right, and what works for their child, is ridiculous. A spanking, administered by a loving parent, does NOT constitute abuse. I've never heard anything so offensive.
There are absolutely times when your child will need to do something without having a reason. "Because I said so" will come out of your mouth a lot more than you're thinking, and it's okay. IMO, raising your children to expect reasons for everything they're asked to do is setting them up for a lot of trouble down the road. Children are children, who lack life experience and a frame of reference. They are not adults, and I do not feel that they should be treated as adults. Doing so gives them a sense of entitlement that will come back to bite everyone on the rear. It's a huge disservice to your child, who will not understand when their teachers, employers and other authority figures do not allow them the same "freedoms".
So those who wish to judge me for spanking, that's your right. But in our household, this is the philosophy with which our kids will be raised.
I disagree with this. You, of course, have to explain things at a child's developmental level, but that doesn't mean you can't explain. At the same time I agree that a child has to also understand that rules are rules. Sometimes, "because I said so" is the reason. I still don't think that spanking gets the point across any better. You can teach your child to be responsible because it is what you want or to avoid punishment. It's really up to you how you want your child to be motivated. I'd rather my child want to achieve good than just avoid punishment.
And there will be NO time when I hit my child. It simply isn't allowed. I will be forced to be more creative in my discipline techniques.
I suggest next time your child is having a temper tantrum, that you give yourself a time out. I have a feeling I'll be doing a lot of that myself.
Are you assuming that because I punished my child, I don't also motivate him? I'd like to gently remind you that you do not know my son, you do not know his personality or the challenges we face with him. We have been very creative in our discipline and our motivational techniques. Some kids are more challenging than others, it's as simple as that.
Thank you for suggesting I give myself a time out. Did you read what he was doing during his meltdown? A timeout for myself is usually my first step. But when a meltdown starts in the middle of a diarrhea-filled diaper change... well, that simply wasn't an option at that time.
I realize my response may sound snarky, but your post was condescending. It's really difficult to hear advice and judgment from people who are not walking this path. Yes, you may be very well educated on the subject, but book learning and on-the-job training, so to speak, are very different. Until you've spent a month living my life, please do not critique how I choose to lovingly discipline (and the word discipline includes both positive and negative reinforcement) my own children. I've reached my conclusion through research, prayer, and trial and error with my individual children. I am doing right by them, and that's all that matters.
these are my thoughts, precisely.
I was spanked as a child and it did put fear in me. I hated it, and it didn't necessarily keep me from trying to get away with something. I would have much rather been talked to, been able to be more open with why i did what i did, etc.
MH believes in it. It has been the object of many of our arguments lately re: our paperwork. He was spanked, his mom is raising our niece and spanks her and all is see is lashing out and at this point, an 8 year old who still has a "tude" and could care less.
If she was just talked to, i think the outcome would be much different.