SO spontaneous

Corleyrae

The thread below got me thinking with the "spontaneous" multiples. At what point is your twins no longer spontaneous? Is it spon. if a not one single action was taken or if anything short of implanting two fertilized eggs, etc. Just curious what the cut off point is.

kelandspence2012

Spontaneous is without assistance ... no medical intervention!

CNYBride05

kelandspence2012:

Spontaneous is without assistance ... no medical intervention!

This may be true for fraterna twinsl.  All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

Mrs. Alice

MrsLee04:

CNYBride05:

All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

True!  I've read that with IVF the identical twining rate is about 4-5 times that of naturally conceived pregnancy.  I think of spontaneous twins are those from a pregnancy conceived with no medical intervention.

JocelynB0911

I always understood a spontaneous twin pregnancy was one with no medical intervention.

CNYBride05

MrsLee04:

CNYBride05:

All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

interesting.  Our RE had a different take and we did not do ICSI or assisted hatching.  It doesn't matter to me how they occurred as long as they are healthy. 

Cinnamon Haze

You can also look at it this way:

w/o the 'help' of IVF you wouldnt have conceived at all, which means it is still a product of the treatment and therefore not spontaneous.

PurpleIris30

MrsLee04:

CNYBride05:

All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

In the general population, identical twins occur about .5% of the time, while with ivf, the average rate rises to 1.7% (higher with donor eggs or young mothers).  So while IVF does increase the rate, the odds of this happening are still really small.  Also, more recent journal articles say that assisted hatching, ICSI, and PGD don't increase the odds, although no one is certain exactly what causes the increase. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19409556 

FWIW, my RE and MFM (unconnected doctors in different states) have termed my pregnancy a "spontaneous monozygotic pregnancy" even though I did ivf.  I didn't inquire about the spontaneous part of their separate characterizations, but I just assume it was meant to distinguish a fraternal twin pregnancy in which I had transferred two embryos.

In the end, I don't think it really matters.  There's no way to tell if my embryo would have split if the egg and sperm had met on their own.  I consider myself pregnant through IVF, and having twins through very small random chance.  My doctors consider it to be a spontaneous twin pregnancy.

CNYBride05

PurpleIris30:

MrsLee04:

CNYBride05:

All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

In the general population, identical twins occur about .5% of the time, while with ivf, the average rate rises to 1.7% (higher with donor eggs or young mothers).  So while IVF does increase the rate, the odds of this happening are still really small.  Also, more recent journal articles say that assisted hatching, ICSI, and PGD don't increase the odds, although no one is certain exactly what causes the increase. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19409556 

FWIW, my RE and MFM (unconnected doctors in different states) have termed my pregnancy a "spontaneous monozygotic pregnancy" even though I did ivf.  I didn't inquire about the spontaneous part of their separate characterizations, but I just assume it was meant to distinguish a fraternal twin pregnancy in which I had transferred two embryos.

In the end, I don't think it really matters.  There's no way to tell if my embryo would have split if the egg and sperm had met on their own.  I consider myself pregnant through IVF, and having twins through very small random chance.  My doctors consider it to be a spontaneous twin pregnancy.

This . Thank you for articulating what I was not able to.  My brain is getting mushy... 

kiwi443

MrsLee04:

CNYBride05:

All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

This is my understanding as well.