Since religious folks don't want the gov to redefine "marriage"...

luckylauren14

Let's take the gov out of marriage completely.

So, anyone married by a judge, sea captain, Elvis, etc, sorry but now you are no longer married. Only those who are married by the religious figure of their choice get to stay married.

But let's not stop there. Forget the fact if you are "married" or not now, no more governmental benefits to being married anyway!!  Let's stop health insurance benefits, tax deductions, pension sharing. Nope. Sorry. The government no longer recognizes marriage so there is no longer benefits associated with that.

I wonder what the religious would say about that? Not fair! Maybe. But if they do, then we could say, why not? You're still married in the eyes of your god, just not in the eyes of the government. And since you don't think everyone should receive those governmental benefits, really, why should anyone? Maybe then they'd change their tune.

Sorry for the vent. I was getting worked up about something on FB and I felt like this was a safe place to let off some steam.

RockyTopVols

CoffeeBeen

twatley:

I just can't wrap my head around how anyone doesn't believe in equal human rights. Like, at all. 

Me either.  It defies all logical sense. 

Libby1978

I just don't get why religious folks are always up in everyone's business.  Why do they care so much? 

RondackHiker

Not all religious folks oppose gay marriage. At least, I don't.

That said, I don't think your argument would work. The ones that are really opposed would welcome the idea. The gays being blocked from marriage trumps everything. Even money. Most people like this are also semi well off so they'd just say they would plan financially to provide for one another, and that we should all do that.

Or they'd argue that if they hit hard times, other Christians will bail them out.

RockyTopVols

CoffeeBeen:

Me either.  It defies all logical sense. 

It is the "neener neener boo boo" argument. We have it. We don't want others to have it. Therefore we are superior.

Marriage has be redefined countless times in the existence of man. The whole "don't redefine my marriage, bro" is akin to ignorance of the argument "Keep your government out of my medicare".

 

 

Icarusalsoflew

twatley:

I just can't wrap my head around how anyone doesn't believe in equal human rights. Like, at all. 

Preach .

missyishere

CoffeeBeen:

twatley:

I just can't wrap my head around how anyone doesn't believe in equal human rights. Like, at all. 

Me either.  It defies all logical sense. 

I would say the same for any religion as well.

CoffeeBeen

fredalina:

I don't believe the government should license or certify marriage at all. Marriage licenses only came into this country in the first place as a means to discriminate and stop interracial marriages or other "unethical" marriages like between relatives or homosexuals. It is not the government's job to tell people whom they can love. The marriage tax break disappears after the Bush cuts expire anyway. I think companies can extend insurance benefits to same sex or opposite sex partners at their preference; my company has same sex benefits as many do, so why can't it be handled the same way? Custody issues and survivorship are handled through contracts as they are with non married partnerships today.

Because if you give them the choice to discriminate against same-sex couples, then some will.

RondackHiker

Icarusalsoflew:

twatley:

I just can't wrap my head around how anyone doesn't believe in equal human rights. Like, at all. 

Preach .

I don't either. Both as a Christian and as a decent human bean, this sh!t makes me sick. I don't remember hearing god say that judging others and denying them their rights made us right in his eyes.

Please don't put me on a post it for being Christian. I am pro choice, pro birth control, and pro gay marriage.

RockyTopVols

RondackHiker:

as a decent human bean, .

 

RondackHiker

RockyTopVols:

RondackHiker:

as a decent human bean, .

 

Damn it. I swear I typed being. I need non mobile bump or more coffee.

luckylauren14

RondackHiker:

Not all religious folks oppose gay marriage. At least, I don't. That said, I don't think your argument would work. The ones that are really opposed would welcome the idea. The gays being blocked from marriage trumps everything. Even money. Most people like this are also semi well off so they'd just say they would plan financially to provide for one another, and that we should all do that. Or they'd argue that if they hit hard times, other Christians will bail them out.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to say "all" but it seems like the majority of people opposed to allowing gays to marry are religious. But yes, my parents are both religious, but they also believe strongly in equal civil rights.

And I know my idea wouldn't "work" but that's the point. Maybe then people would see that legal marriage is about more than their religious beliefs.

luckylauren14

Now I am going to bump and run. Thank you ladies and gent for allowing me this vent! 

RockyTopVols

RondackHiker:

 Damn it. I swear I typed being. I need non mobile bump or more coffee.

Lol it is okay. I thought it was funny.

 

RondackHiker

fredalina:

RondackHiker:

Not all religious folks oppose gay marriage. At least, I don't.

That said, I don't think your argument would work. The ones that are really opposed would welcome the idea. The gays being blocked from marriage trumps everything. Even money. Most people like this are also semi well off so they'd just say they would plan financially to provide for one another, and that we should all do that.

Or they'd argue that if they hit hard times, other Christians will bail them out.

I think it's a stretch to say that most people who oppose gay marriage are "semi well off". I think discrimination goes beyond socioeconomics.

Personally I just don't GAFF who gets married. I don't think gay marriage is any more a threat to the institution of marriage than 24 hour Hollywood marriages are. Far less, really. The argument that by allowing something to become mainstream equals "acceptance" doesn't fly for me either. So many things that are legal are still considered sins, like adultery.

I am sorry, I didn't word that well. Many of the vocal people I know who oppose gay marriage are well off and would be fine with losing money to ban gay marriage.

I have tried the 24 hour marriage argument and the adultery still ejnf legal and was told it was free will to sin or sumsh!t. I asked why it wasn't okay for gays to have free will as well and didnt get an answer.

I don't care who marries either. I just want everyone to have te right to be married.

RondackHiker

luckylauren14:

RondackHiker:

Not all religious folks oppose gay marriage. At least, I don't.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to say "all" but it seems like the majority of people opposed to allowing gays to marry are religious. But yes, my parents are both religious, but they also believe strongly in equal civil rights.

And I know my idea wouldn't "work" but that's the point. Maybe then people would see that legal marriage is about more than their religious beliefs.

I know you didn't mean that every religious person was like that, but I feel the constant need to point out we aren't all dicks, since it seems like the vocal ones are.

I wish people were less stubborn about this. I don't know how to argue anymore. I don't think they get AT ALL the financial benefits of marriage, and if they do, many are so stubborn they'd be okay with losing them.

ATMmom324

The majority of people I know who oppose gay marriage aren't religious.  They just are ignorant and see homosexuality as gross and want to try and stop it in anyway.  These are the same people who stay stuff like kids would be better orphans then have F***** parents.  I guess I have the privilege of knowing straight up arseholes who don't bother to hide behind religion.

RockyTopVols

ATMmom324:

The majority of people I know who oppose gay marriage aren't religious.  They just are ignorant and see homosexuality as gross and want to try and stop it in anyway.  These are the same people who stay stuff like kids would be better orphans then have F***** parents.  I guess I have the privilege of knowing straight up arseholes who don't bother to hide behind religion.

 

My dad is gay and raised me. I turned out okay. And I didn't catch the "gay gene" or whatever other nonsense they spew.

RondackHiker

RockyTopVols:

ATMmom324:

The majority of people I know who oppose gay marriage aren't religious.  They just are ignorant and see homosexuality as gross and want to try and stop it in anyway.  These are the same people who stay stuff like kids would be better orphans then have F***** parents.  I guess I have the privilege of knowing straight up arseholes who don't bother to hide behind religion.

 

My dad is gay and raised me. I turned out okay. And I didn't catch the "gay gene" or whatever other nonsense they spew.

You do, however, try to get bacon kisses from women who are not your wife. Tsk, tsk.

It makes me sick that people say that stuff.

lancyjo

I'm a hot mess when it comes to this issue. I contradict myself and look like a hypocrite and can't very well articulate how I actually feel about it. So, if this makes zero sense to you I understand.

Let me also preface this with: I am a Christian. I believe homosexuality is a sin. I also believe that homosexuals are loved by God regardless of their sin, as are all sinners, and can go to heaven. God doesn't have "levels" of sins... the inmate on death row has committed no worse sins in God's eyes than I did by telling a white lie. So, as long as I continue to sin (so as long as I live because nobody is perfect), I commit no worse offense in God's eyes than a homosexual. I believe that I serve a loving, forgiving God who in no way would want me to spew hatred or discriminate against anyone, for any reason.

In my pre-bump days, in my sheltered Christian life in Podunk, I was 100% against gay marriage. Who are they to steal the sanctity of my union?! The mere thought appalled me. Then I talked to my Papaw, a Baptist minister, who explained the "God has no "levels" of sins" thing to me, and told me that I most certainly would see people in heaven who were homosexuals on earth. (we believe that there is no sexuality/unions in heaven) So wait, what? My Papaw, the most conservative man I know, says that gay people aren't "evil", and that letting them be married in no way effects my marriage?

Enter the bump into my life. I'm exposed to so many different cultures and lifestyles and life choices... I learn that I can respectfully disagree with others, we don't have to share the same views... and someone says to me, "Why is it any of the government's business who gets married? Why does YOUR church/religion have the final say? Would you love your husband any less, or be any less committed to him should a gay couple be given their right to be married? Why can't gay people be legally married, but just not recognized in the eyes of the church? Why does the church get to dictate what is legal?" BOOM. I get it now.

I'm still not a fan of gay marriage, but only because I don't support homosexuality. My God tells me to "Love thy neighbor as they self", and that's what I plan to do. Love everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation, religion, or color. Let every human have the same rights, let them be married if they wish. I'm still going to honor my vows and love my husband with every fiber of my being, regardless of if another man loves his husband this much too.

Sorry if this makes no sense to anyone else. I'm still trying to find a short, simple way to say it. Maybe: God tells us to love one another. No exceptions. Let them be married. 

And, I should add this:

Igoo0304:

Exactly. It makes me sad that if I mention my religion, I also feel obligated to say I'm not a bigoted a-hole. 

CoffeeBeen

fredalina:

CoffeeBeen:

fredalina:

I don't believe the government should license or certify marriage at all. Marriage licenses only came into this country in the first place as a means to discriminate and stop interracial marriages or other "unethical" marriages like between relatives or homosexuals. It is not the government's job to tell people whom they can love. The marriage tax break disappears after the Bush cuts expire anyway. I think companies can extend insurance benefits to same sex or opposite sex partners at their preference; my company has same sex benefits as many do, so why can't it be handled the same way? Custody issues and survivorship are handled through contracts as they are with non married partnerships today.

Because if you give them the choice to discriminate against same-sex couples, then some will.

My point is that it's currently a choice. And many people in same sex partnerships gravitate toward companies that extend benefits to them. And thus more begin to extend benefits because they want good employees. Some would not extend benefits to anyone other than the employee and dependents, but they will lose good employees too.

So, your argument is that we should allow systematic discrimination because those facing discrimination will gravitate toward companies that don't discriminate? 

 It seems like an undue burden on a gay family.  Why should they face limited employment and health insurance just because they're gay?  Would you say the same if insurance companies didn't want to insure spouses of differing races?

Not to mention that the economic climate isn't exactly prime for picking and choosing jobs, many are happy just to have employment - let alone be in the position to turn down another job. 

And even if a gay man or woman is in a position to turn down a job because of its insurance policy in favor of the exact same job at a company that insures same-sex couples, there's a surplus of employees and gay people only make up something like 5% of the population, so companies aren't likely to face a whole lot of pressure to change.

CoffeeBeen

lancyjo:

I'm still not a fan of gay marriage, but only because I don't support homosexuality.

lol

ATMmom324

lancyjo:

I'm a hot mess when it comes to this issue. I contradict myself and look like a hypocrite and can't very well articulate how I actually feel about it. So, if this makes zero sense to you I understand.

Let me also preface this with: I am a Christian. I believe homosexuality is a sin. I also believe that homosexuals are loved by God regardless of their sin, as are all sinners, and can go to heaven. God doesn't have "levels" of sins... the inmate on death row has committed no worse sins in God's eyes than I did by telling a white lie. So, as long as I continue to sin (so as long as I live because nobody is perfect), I commit no worse offense in God's eyes than a homosexual. I believe that I serve a loving, forgiving God who in no way would want me to spew hatred or discriminate against anyone, for any reason.

In my pre-bump days, in my sheltered Christian life in Podunk, I was 100% against gay marriage. Who are they to steal the sanctity of my union?! The mere thought appalled me. Then I talked to my Papaw, a Baptist minister, who explained the "God has no "levels" of sins" thing to me, and told me that I most certainly would see people in heaven who were homosexuals on earth. (we believe that there is no sexuality/unions in heaven) So wait, what? My Papaw, the most conservative man I know, says that gay people aren't "evil", and that letting them be married in no way effects my marriage?

Enter the bump into my life. I'm exposed to so many different cultures and lifestyles and life choices... I learn that I can respectfully disagree with others, we don't have to share the same views... and someone says to me, "Why is it any of the government's business who gets married? Why does YOUR church/religion have the final say? Would you love your husband any less, or be any less committed to him should a gay couple be given their right to be married? Why can't gay people be legally married, but just not recognized in the eyes of the church? Why does the church get to dictate what is legal?" BOOM. I get it now.

I'm still not a fan of gay marriage, but only because I don't support homosexuality. My God tells me to "Love thy neighbor as they self", and that's what I plan to do. Love everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation, religion, or color. Let every human have the same rights, let them be married if they wish. I'm still going to honor my vows and love my husband with every fiber of my being, regardless of if another man loves his husband this much too.

Sorry if this makes no sense to anyone else. I'm still trying to find a short, simple way to say it. Maybe: God tells us to love one another. No exceptions. Let them be married. 

And, I should add this:

Igoo0304:

Exactly. It makes me sad that if I mention my religion, I also feel obligated to say I'm not a bigoted a-hole. 

 

I am so happy I don't know any one who believes this IRL. Also WTF is a Papaw?  Is this for real?

tarebear9891

There is one thing that I always get into an argument with people who use religion as a shield to say hateful things about gay marriage. Study after study shows that being gay is biological and 100 percent not a choice. There have been studies that have shown that when someone who is gay smells the pheromones of someone of the same sex, their hypothalamus lights up.

So if you believe in God and believe he doesn't make mistakes, then it would be safe to say he made people gay for a reason. Maybe that reason was to point out all of the hypocrites. Maybe it's because he doesn't view homosexuality as abnormal at all.

For the record, I believe in science and God. So maybe I am giving too much credit to people to do their research.

lancyjo

ATMmom324:

lancyjo:

I'm a hot mess when it comes to this issue. I contradict myself and look like a hypocrite and can't very well articulate how I actually feel about it. So, if this makes zero sense to you I understand.

Let me also preface this with: I am a Christian. I believe homosexuality is a sin. I also believe that homosexuals are loved by God regardless of their sin, as are all sinners, and can go to heaven. God doesn't have "levels" of sins... the inmate on death row has committed no worse sins in God's eyes than I did by telling a white lie. So, as long as I continue to sin (so as long as I live because nobody is perfect), I commit no worse offense in God's eyes than a homosexual. I believe that I serve a loving, forgiving God who in no way would want me to spew hatred or discriminate against anyone, for any reason.

In my pre-bump days, in my sheltered Christian life in Podunk, I was 100% against gay marriage. Who are they to steal the sanctity of my union?! The mere thought appalled me. Then I talked to my Papaw, a Baptist minister, who explained the "God has no "levels" of sins" thing to me, and told me that I most certainly would see people in heaven who were homosexuals on earth. (we believe that there is no sexuality/unions in heaven) So wait, what? My Papaw, the most conservative man I know, says that gay people aren't "evil", and that letting them be married in no way effects my marriage?

Enter the bump into my life. I'm exposed to so many different cultures and lifestyles and life choices... I learn that I can respectfully disagree with others, we don't have to share the same views... and someone says to me, "Why is it any of the government's business who gets married? Why does YOUR church/religion have the final say? Would you love your husband any less, or be any less committed to him should a gay couple be given their right to be married? Why can't gay people be legally married, but just not recognized in the eyes of the church? Why does the church get to dictate what is legal?" BOOM. I get it now.

I'm still not a fan of gay marriage, but only because I don't support homosexuality. My God tells me to "Love thy neighbor as they self", and that's what I plan to do. Love everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation, religion, or color. Let every human have the same rights, let them be married if they wish. I'm still going to honor my vows and love my husband with every fiber of my being, regardless of if another man loves his husband this much too.

Sorry if this makes no sense to anyone else. I'm still trying to find a short, simple way to say it. Maybe: God tells us to love one another. No exceptions. Let them be married. 

And, I should add this:

Igoo0304:

Exactly. It makes me sad that if I mention my religion, I also feel obligated to say I'm not a bigoted a-hole. 

 

I am so happy I don't know any one who believes this IRL. Also WTF is a Papaw?  Is this for real?

A Papaw is a grandfather. It's just what we call them around here.

And you're glad that you don't know anyone IRL who believes that we should love and accept and grant equal rights to all humans regardless of if we agree with their lifestyle or not?

kdjudd

I hate the legalism that surrounds Christianity. I hate how a lot of Christians believe that they need to push their beliefs on everyone else. What do they think that will accomplish? At best, you will just make everyone more bitter towards you. 

I'm a Christian and I think that homosexual couples should have every right to get married. Do I agree with their lifestyle completely? No, not really, but I believe they should be treated as equals. I have some homosexual friends and they are wonderful people both inside and out. I think Christians need to stop persecuting other religions and beliefs. 

 

God says to love your neighbor and even your enemies. It's time we starting taking that a bit more seriously.  

CoffeeBeen

So, maybe this is the part of the puzzle that I don't get, legalization aside, why do some Christians think that homosexuality is bad? 

RondackHiker

BostonKisses2:

RockyTopVols:

RondackHiker:

as a decent human bean, .

 

Bahahahahahaha! 

I am embarrassed but love this graphic so am also glad I made this mistake.

chiualover

I want to invite some of these haters to meet my daughter,

her partner, and their 14mo old son. Spend some time

with them. And then tell us to our faces that they shouldn't

have all the rights of hetero's.

I would start with mommyliberty, and catsarenice from

The Nest PC&E board.

RondackHiker

CoffeeBeen:

So, maybe this is the part of the puzzle that I don't get, legalization aside, why do some Christians think that homosexuality is bad?nbsp;

Because the bible says it is wrong. Now, if you read from a historical context and if you read and understand the whole chapter and bible, not just select verses, you walk away with a different picture. Which is why many sects of Christianity are now accepting and performing gay marriages.

RockyTopVols

RondackHiker:

CoffeeBeen:

So, maybe this is the part of the puzzle that I don't get, legalization aside, why do some Christians think that homosexuality is bad?nbsp;

Because the bible says it is wrong. Now, if you read from a historical context and if you read and understand the whole chapter and bible, not just select verses, you walk away with a different picture. Which is why many sects of Christianity are now accepting and performing gay marriages.

My father and his partner both attend a Methodist church in Texas. 

It blows minds there.  

JuneBug86

You know what I don't get?

Why American's fight so damn much about EVERYTHING!! Gay marriage, abortion, and all the other things you guys argue so much about are such non issues in Canada (and in most other developed countries). Don't you get sick of it all? I sure do, and I only see it on TB and on American news. I would go crazy if I had to see this crap on FB and IRL too.

RockyTopVols

JuneBug86:

You know what I don't get?

Why American's fight so damn much about EVERYTHING!! 

  

It's because we have the highest Defense Budget in the world. We like to fight and blow shiit up.  

lancyjo

Spooko:

lancyjo-I'm not going to jump all over you for what you wrote. Instead, I'll say I respect how hard it is to reexamine your beliefs and make changes. So good for you in making the progress that you have.

I know it can take time to get there, but hopefully one day you'll finish the thought evolution and realize that you aren't really loving your neighbor by begrudgingly giving them equal rights. Loving comes without the judgment you're hanging onto.

Thank you, it was humbling to realize that I was so incredibly wrong.

I don't feel like I'm judging homosexuals, or begrudgingly giving them equal rights. I disagree with their lifestyle, but I don't judge them for it.

CoffeeBeen

lancyjo:

Spooko:

lancyjo-I'm not going to jump all over you for what you wrote. Instead, I'll say I respect how hard it is to reexamine your beliefs and make changes. So good for you in making the progress that you have.

I know it can take time to get there, but hopefully one day you'll finish the thought evolution and realize that you aren't really loving your neighbor by begrudgingly giving them equal rights. Loving comes without the judgment you're hanging onto.

Thank you, it was humbling to realize that I was so incredibly wrong.

I don't feel like I'm judging homosexuals, or begrudgingly giving them equal rights. I disagree with their lifestyle, but I don't judge them for it.

Can you explain why?  I simply honest to God cannot understand.  

lancyjo

CoffeeBeen:

lancyjo:

Spooko:

lancyjo-I'm not going to jump all over you for what you wrote. Instead, I'll say I respect how hard it is to reexamine your beliefs and make changes. So good for you in making the progress that you have.

I know it can take time to get there, but hopefully one day you'll finish the thought evolution and realize that you aren't really loving your neighbor by begrudgingly giving them equal rights. Loving comes without the judgment you're hanging onto.

Thank you, it was humbling to realize that I was so incredibly wrong.

I don't feel like I'm judging homosexuals, or begrudgingly giving them equal rights. I disagree with their lifestyle, but I don't judge them for it.

Can you explain why?  I simply honest to God cannot understand.  

Probably not in a way that would make any logical sense to anyone here. I suck at explaining my beliefs (because I don't want to offend anyone), and I'm still trying to learn and research and make more informed decisions on the subject. Where I'm at right now, I disagree with the lifestyle because it goes against everything I've been taught since I was in the womb. I'm just scratching the surface of "step outside of your comfort zone and learn for yourself".

I don't pretend to be the final authority on God's word, or God's will. I'm just trying to live by the Bible in the way I interpret it.

RondackHiker

Spooko:

Scout2005:

Spooko:

RondackHiker:

CoffeeBeen:

So, maybe this is the part of the puzzle that I don't get, legalization aside, why do some Christians think that homosexuality is bad?nbsp;

Because the bible says it is wrong. Now, if you read from a historical context and if you read and understand the whole chapter and bible, not just select verses, you walk away with a different picture. Which is why many sects of Christianity are now accepting and performing gay marriages.

Not to mention that Jesus doesn't even touch on the issue himself. The OT has verses (and I've read a good argument they're actually referring to prostitution) and Paul writes about it, but not Jesus IIRC.

Well sure, if you're actually going to require people to read the Bible and put it into context, instead of going with "but my pastor SAID SO."

I have yet to have anyone give a legitimate argument that the Bible actually forbids consensual homosexual relationships. The misreading and misquoting of Leviticus just makes people using that passage as their basis look stupid.

And if they do offer Leviticus, I am then forced to ask where they get their tent to sit in during menstruation, their animals for ritual sacrifice, their cloth made of no mixed materials and how long their husband's beards and side curls are. Because either live it all to the letter or STFU.You don't get to cherry pick the hateful parts and then ignore the ones that aren't convenient to you.

And if the OT covenant is null and void because of the coming of Christ, then that REALLY takes the winds out of the whole "God's not down with the gays" argument. Because it ain't in Jesus' teachings. So...?

This whole thing just pisses me off SO MUCH.

Not to mention conveniently skipping over the whole "examine the log in your own eye before the speck in others'" deal.

You all say it so much better than I did. What made me first reexamine all this and seek out someone who could talk to me about the historical context and all that and explain why he preached homosexuality wasn't a sin was when I realized the Old Testament would have had me marry my rapist. I knew no kind God would do that, so I wondered if I understood it wrong.

I feel like many people miss out by taking it word for word and not looking at who said what, when they said it, what words they used, and so on.

lancyjo

Spooko:

lancyjo:

Spooko:

lancyjo-I'm not going to jump all over you for what you wrote. Instead, I'll say I respect how hard it is to reexamine your beliefs and make changes. So good for you in making the progress that you have.

I know it can take time to get there, but hopefully one day you'll finish the thought evolution and realize that you aren't really loving your neighbor by begrudgingly giving them equal rights. Loving comes without the judgment you're hanging onto.

Thank you, it was humbling to realize that I was so incredibly wrong.

I don't feel like I'm judging homosexuals, or begrudgingly giving them equal rights. I disagree with their lifestyle, but I don't judge them for it.

That may be, but it isn't coming across that way. It's coming across like this:

Well, I guess they can have it. I don't really like it but it is what it is <--begrudgingly

I disagree with homosexuality and it's wrong <--placing your own judgment on it

I just don't see where diagreeing with someone's lifestyle = judging that lifestyle.  

My bottom line is that I want my fellow Christians to love people unconditionally. I don't care if you're gay or straight, you're still human, you deserve to be loved, and you deserve the exact same rights as anyone else.

missyishere

JuneBug86:

You know what I don't get?

Why American's fight so damn much about EVERYTHING!! Gay marriage, abortion, and all the other things you guys argue so much about are such non issues in Canada (and in most other developed countries). Don't you get sick of it all? I sure do, and I only see it on TB and on American news. I would go crazy if I had to see this crap on FB and IRL too.

Because I'm still learning the snarky ways, I will just use a quote to best explain how I feel about this subject:

?For nearly a century, the moral relativism of science has given faith-based religion--that great engine of ignorance and bigotry--a nearly uncontested claim to being the only universal framework for moral wisdom. As a result, the most powerful societies on early spend their time debating issues like gay marriage when they should be focused on problems like nuclear proliferation, genocide, energy security, climate change, poverty, and failing schools.?

-Sam Harris

CoffeeBeen

Spooko:

lancyjo:

Probably not in a way that would make any logical sense to anyone here. I suck at explaining my beliefs (because I don't want to offend anyone), and I'm still trying to learn and research and make more informed decisions on the subject. Where I'm at right now, I disagree with the lifestyle because it goes against everything I've been taught since I was in the womb. I'm just scratching the surface of "step outside of your comfort zone and learn for yourself".

I don't pretend to be the final authority on God's word, or God's will. I'm just trying to live by the Bible in the way I interpret it.

Well I encourage you to continue down this road, then. Read it for yourself. Research the context, too. It is absolutely challenging to start from scratch on everything you've ever believed, but I think you'll be a better person for it and you'll have stronger arguments for your opinions than, "It's what I was taught. The Bible says so." Good luck in your endeavors.

Ditto to what Spooko said.

I commend you for how far you've come.  And I (gently) remind you that there are many things that people have been taught since the womb that are not entirely accurate.  Its really hard to rewrite one's beliefs, but its often worth it.

I can't really help you with the religious research, but I can certainly help you in other areas.  For instance, I think gayness is as natural as nature and I encourage you to read up on my favorite primate: the bonobo.  Or just animals in general.