Non-believer/Non-religious Check-in

RedPhoenix625

Happy Thursday! 

This check-in group is intended for those of us who would like to connect with like-minded TTCALers for the purpose of providing non-religious support, which we may have difficulty finding elsewhere. We grieve differently than those with more mainstream religious views, and may also feel uncomfortable sharing our grieving process with others for this reason. There is a lack of communities and support structures available to non-religious individuals; I hope we can build one here.

***Please note, this group is NOT intended to offend anyone of religious faith.***

In order to try to eliminate any potential drama, and to avoid offending other posters, I've begun a list of some ground rules. Please let me know of anything you think should be added or changed.

Ground rules:

~ Please keep these threads respectful, to each other and to the women with differing views who may read the posts. Our goal is support.
~ Though the topic of religion will inevitably be a frequent point of discussion, please refrain from anything that would likely be interpreted as bashing other religions. This is not the place for that. Yes, share your thoughts and experiences, but keep it tasteful.
~ Of course all posters are welcome here, but let's avoid theological debates on this thread. There are plenty of places on the web for theological debates. There aren't plenty of places for support for non-religious TTCALers.
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Members
If you would like to be added to the check-in, post here and I will add you to the list of members. 

***Congrats to ct103 on her BFP!!!!***

annarussell05 - agnostic
BootsOrHearts - spiritual but not religious
centralperk - spiritual but not religious
ct103 - agnostic/spiritual
dandywarhol - nonbeliever
eroplane - atheist
GraceinCA - agnostic atheist
huckleberry08 - atheist
jalara48 -
lindseyanne79 - agnostic/spiritual
LSzwaya - agnostic/spiritual
mdharrison - spiritual but not religious
MissMheMhe - agnostic
mlal78 - agnostic
ncchnat - agnostic
nola78 - spiritual but not religious
pkaren - agnostic
RedPhoenix625 - atheist
RequiresExalted - agnostic
shellyco - atheist
SwittyMcGee - atheist
Veganlady - agnostic
weaselwam - spiritual but not religious
wickedsugar - spiritual but not religious
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QOTW: (but feel free to share anything else you need support with, or that you need to get off your chest!)

What is the most helpful thing that anybody has said to you regarding your loss(es)?  Or, in a perfect world, what would you want people to say or do to help you with your grief?

dandywarhol

I'd like to join the group. I'm not sure how to classify myself. I used to say spiritual but not religious but lately even that doesn't seem to help. I think I'm moving closer to the non-believer group or nihilism. 

 

QOTW:

After the loss of my daughter at 21w I had two friends say things that helped with the grief. My one friend, Clare, and I were talking about the universe and I was ranting and questioning why the universe would have my daughter die. I know it sounds narcissistic but I knew my daughter would be good for the world and couldn't understand why the universe would take her.  Clare responded that she thought the universe did want my daughter to be here but sometimes random things happen. Some how the thought of randomness beyond anyone's control helped me feel a little better.  It is difficult to explain.

Another friend, Jerry, sent me an article about parallel universes and probability and said he hoped I might find some comfort in the thought that in a million parallel universes my daughter had lived and that I was enjoying life with her. That too helped me focus less one the darkness and despair, thinking that out there in some place and time, I got to experience the life I always dreamed of with my little one.  

centralperk

I want to say I went to a counseling appointment yesterday and it helped so much. I thought I was only going for one thing but it turns out I could use some help it some other areas of life as well. I met with someone that I really click with and I am really looking forward to my next appt. I think if anyone is wondering if they should go I say go for it. I felt so great after my first appt and it was only the intro where I kinda said who I was and why I was there. 

One of the mostly helpful things someone said to me is that it is okay to be sad and be sad for awhile, You had a plan for the future child and it will take time to get over it. And now you have to adjust to a new plan and that is okay but give yourself time to recognize the loss and then move forward. I know this is probably common sense and I can't really remember how she phrased it but it just made me feel a lot better with yes I did have this whole plan in my head and I have to grieve the loss of the plan and now come up with a new plan.

 Another helpful thing was that when I told her that my sister was pregnant at the same time she said that now I will be able to have my own pregnancy and not have to share/ or have people compare the two. I will have the chance to enjoy my new niece or nephew on it's okay and not be overwhelmed with a newborn as well. I should look at it as a special time to create the auntie relationship I want to have. This really helped me feel not so sad and look at more of the positive signs of having a loved one pregnant near your due date. 

RequiresExalted

Hi ladies!  Did IUI #2 this week, so I'm just waiting... waiting... waiting!

QOTW:  The best thing anyone has said, is probably "You're going to be a great mom some day!"  It's just kind of reassuring.

*hugs and luck to all*  

LSzwaya

I am really lucky to have my MIL. My brother in law (DH and I had just started dating at the time) suddenly passed away 7 years ago. Obviously her loss and my loss are different but a lot of the same emotions and processes I have gone through she has gone through and she doesn't consider herself very religious so it has been such a great comfort for me to have someone who feels similarly. The only other person in my life who has experienced pregnancy loss is very religious so a lot of the things that comfort her, do not comfort me. I think the most comforting thing though, came from my dad who is not a very emotionally available person. When we had our loss in April at 11 weeks after seeing and hearing a hb, he just told me that he was sorry and that he was sad. It was just such an amazing feeling to know that those feelings of sadness I had weren't just mine and for it to come from my dad, just meant even more. It felt good to know that I wasn't the only person who envisioned life with this baby and was now sad to see that future disappear. When I feel alone in my grief, I remember that moment and that I am not alone. 

RedPhoenix625

dandywarhol - Welcome!  I often think about the randomness of the universe vs. the "god had a plan" perspective, and I agree that randomness is easier to swallow.  Still sucks the big one, but it's just the way of the world.  (Can I just say, why do people worship a god that has my IF and RPL in his "plan"?  Effed up, if you ask me...)

mdharrison - It's interesting that you talked about people saying how strong you are.  I hear it all the time and it makes me want to vomit. :P  Just goes to show that there really isn't a "right" thing to say (aside from "I'm sorry" and some variation of "this blows").  I mean, I know it's a compliment, and perhaps it's true, but it's not like I have a choice.  And I don't feel strong.  I feel defeated and hopeless and helpless.  But even assuming I really am strong...I don't want to be if this is what it takes.  I'd rather be weak with a living child. 
How nice though to think that you have changed lives by sharing your story with those close to you.  Now there is something good to come out of all this wretchedness.  Even to just make people aware of pregnancy loss as an issue.

centralperk - I'm glad your counseling appt went well.  I also began seeing a therapist, and we also talked about "the plan".  The grief over losing the plan is a huge part of my emotional struggle.  That's okay, and I've learned (the hard way) that life doesn't always follow a plan.  I still struggle with that...I followed all the rules, I worked hard, I did what I was supposed to do.  It's not fair that my plan is flucked.  But it happens to people every day, and I'm learning that I need to be prepared for plans B, C, and D.

RedPhoenix625

annarussell - Sorry about your spotting and temp drop   Try not to worry about it too, too much (though I'm sure it's ridiculously frustrating).  A friend of mine who was TTC for about 9 months had LPs that consistently lasted only 7-8 days.  She finally discussed it with her OB and started B6.  Her LP made it to a whopping 9 days that cycle, and she was psyched that her LP had lengthened on its own.  Turns out she was pregnant.  So a short LP is not necessarily anything to worry about!  Still, I hope the B6 or Prometrium helps to stretch it out a bit longer!

nola78 - I loved that article.  Much more meaningful to me than fairy tales of heaven and angels.  We are, after all, all just made of star dust

ncchnat - I loved your story.  You're right...I've almost killed anybody that has said "At least you can get pregnant" to me.  But coming from your friend, with her history, it's like she was saying "both of us are in super craptastic places, and I know there's nothing I can say or do, so let's just make a joke out of it."  I can understand how that would lighten the mood.  Sometimes, all you can do is laugh at your own misfortune.

RedPhoenix625

mlal78 - I teared up just reading about your mom.  My conversations with my mom are so meaningful as well.  She doesn't always say the most helpful things, but she sure tries and goes out of her way to ask about my appts and how we're doing.  And she constantly lets me know that I will be a great mother when the time is right.  Coming from someone who I consider to be the best mother ever on the face of the earth, it's definitely nice to hear!

RequiresExalted - I so hope you get good news soon regarding your IUI!  FX!!!  I agree that hearing that some day, somehow, you will be an excellent mother is good to hear!

LSzwaya - How sweet about your dad!  I had a similar moment with my mom a few weeks ago.  It's not that she's emotionally unavailable, she just isn't really attached to the idea of grandchildren one way or the other, and couldn't really care less if my sister or I ever have kids.  But she told me that she saw a commercial involving a grandmother and a baby and teared up a little.  It was nice to know I wasn't the only one feeling the loss.

lindsayanne14

Hi Ladies...I think I'd like to join this check in.  Although I was raised Methodist, for most of my life I guess I have considered myself agnostic and/or spiritual. 

Currently, I am in the 2WW (tons of fun) and hope that our well-timed BDing will prove to be successful...about a week until I can POAS.  NTTALR, but DH and I are selling the house I owned before we got married and it closes tomorrow...so I am ready to celebrate having just one mortgage payment...yay!

Someone else on this thread mentioned the article about the baby's blood and I also found that article far, far more comforting that anything most people have said to me, just yestday I got "good things come to those who wait" from a co-worker...not helpful!  Probably the most comforting thing I heard was from my mom the day after my D&C.  I was crying and wondering out loud, "Why me?" and she responded, with a very gentle, "Why not you?".  Her response really resonated, I guess because there is no reason why, for me-or for anyone else...it helped me accept that I didn't do anything to "deserve" this...just crappy luck!

Hope everyone is having a great evening!

RedPhoenix625

lindsayanne79:

Hi Ladies...I think I'd like to join this check in.  Although I was raised Methodist, for most of my life I guess I have considered myself agnostic and/or spiritual. 

Currently, I am in the 2WW (tons of fun) and hope that our well-timed BDing will prove to be successful...about a week until I can POAS.  NTTALR, but DH and I are selling the house I owned before we got married and it closes tomorrow...so I am ready to celebrate having just one mortgage payment...yay!

Someone else on this thread mentioned the article about the baby's blood and I also found that article far, far more comforting that anything most people have said to me, just yestday I got "good things come to those who wait" from a co-worker...not helpful!  Probably the most comforting thing I heard was from my mom the day after my D&C.  I was crying and wondering out loud, "Why me?" and she responded, with a very gentle, "Why not you?".  Her response really resonated, I guess because there is no reason why, for me-or for anyone else...it helped me accept that I didn't do anything to "deserve" this...just crappy luck!

Hope everyone is having a great evening!

Welcome lindsayanne!  I just read a book called "Innumeracy", which is about our society's general lack of understanding about basic mathematics.  One of the things the author touched on was the "Why me?" phenomenon.  Even just 1% of a large number of people is still a lot of people.  It still sucks to be that 1%, but your mom's right - it had to be someone.  I still would prefer that it wasn't me, or anyone for that matter, but bad things just happen.

We do the check-in on Thursdays, so look for it next week.  Glad to have you on board!

RedPhoenix625

huckleberry08:

I'm sorry I am so late to this, but I wanted to add myself to this check in and sincerely thank you for it. I guess I am an atheist, although I tend to have a very spiritual awe of the natural universe and how it works. We live in a very religious community, so not being part of a faith group can be very isolating. I love hearing all of your perspectives.

Welcome, huckleberry!
Should I list you as atheist, or atheist/spiritual?
Lots of the women in this group have expressed the awe-of-the universe feeling that you describe.  (Great way to word it, btw.)  I know some people think of that as spirituality, but I personally don't.  I just consider it a healthy appreciation for the amazing place we live in and the amazing ways the world works.  Spirituality, to me, indicates some sort of supernatural - spirits, souls, heavens, etc.  That's just the way I define it.  (I hope you don't take this the wrong way; I don't mean to diminish your definition of your belief system or anything.  I just love discussing this type of stuff!)

RedPhoenix625

huckleberry08:

Not at all! I love discussing this, too, and I like how you framed it. I guess you can list me as an atheist, since most of my "supernatural" leanings are based on theoretical physics. : )

You got it!!

GraceInCA

Happy Friday everyone! I've been very busy helping plan someone's wedding, and getting ready for summer to end and my son to get back to school, sorry I haven't been around much.

 

What is the most helpful thing that anybody has said to you regarding your loss(es)? Or, in a perfect world, what would you want people to say or do to help you with your grief?

 

I didn't tell very many people, but the very few who knew did say "I'm sorry," which was comforting.  It was nice to know people were thinking of me. One of the most touching reactions came from my best friend, the only person other than my parents and our doctor who knew.  She full blown cried big ugly tears, and I told her this months after the loss, when even I myself wouldn't have had that reaction. When I asked her if she was sad about the loss of the baby, she said something like, "Yeah, kinda. But not really, I didn't know the baby as a person.  I'm really most sad that you had to suffer through that whole thing." She asked me about every single little detail, wanted to know what had happened, how I felt, if I cried.  It reminded me that I am loved, and that people who love me don't want me to be in pain.

One of the other really helpful things said was by my doctor. He didn't talk down to me, he didn't use a lot of fluffy happy talk to set my mind at ease, he treated me like an intelligent person who could process the medical information. He told me (repeatedly) that it wasn't my fault, that the pregnancy was not viable, that it was not uncommon, that the outcome did not mean I would not go on to give birth to a healthy child. He said something that still sticks with me, "It's nearly impossible to end a healthy pregnancy on your own. Women have been drinking and smoking and throwing themselves down flights of stairs and punching themselves in stomachs, and they still deliver healthy babies. There's almost nothing you can do to end a healthy pregnancy." I remind myself of that sometimes when I wonder if it was a sushi dinner I ate early before I knew I was pregnant, or inadequate prenatal vitamins or something.