September 2012 Moms
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Update on the GA republican that compared us to farm animals

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Re: Update on the GA republican that compared us to farm animals

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    First of all,not isn't an abortion. Second of all... My blood pressure gets too high to even read this article! As a mom that terminated her child after 20 weeks, it makes me want to go postal... I could stab a bish...
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    imageblack.kat:

    crap.  okay.  so the whole comparing us to cows is REALLY stupid among other descriptive words I can't use on thebump... however... I agree 100% with no abortions after 20 wks (yes I am prolife and I do not agree with any abortion at any stage unless it is 100% certain the mother will die).  I do not think that a woman should carry a dead child in her womb, I had a miscarriage and had a d/c, obviously this sort of thinking is INSANE.  But, when it comes to anything else, I personally am against an aboriton being done even on a child who the doctors are sure will not survive - really, because most of the abortions that are done to terminate these children is not humane and not pain-free (unless the child is given pain medication obviously but I have never been able to find numbers of unborn children given pain meds when doing this sort of procedure). Usually late-term abortions are done by 'intact dilation and extraction', 'Instillation abortion' or 'dilation and evacuation'.  You can google those yourself.

    I could go on and on, but I had to say something, because I know this is a POV not many people will speak up for.

    I know I will get flamed, I know it - abortion is not a popular thing to discuss on thebump and even more unpopular is the pro-life stance on it.  I have known women who have had to make these sorts of decisions (and I could be the next one in the situation) and I never pointed a finger and I never will, nor will I judge, but this is my personal feeling on this issue.  And I want to be clear that my personal opinion is not twisted into some sort of attack on women.

    I just have to say, your post makes me sick. Not only do you have your fact absolutely wrong, you personally offended me.

    I terminate my child's life at 23 weeks 5 days due to Amniotic Band Syndrome. Like my pg, the VAST majority of late term terminations are wanted pgs and are due to medical cause - not the lack to desire to keep the child. My daughter had bands ripping through and filleting her body open which caused more amputations, distress and suffering than even I can wrap my brain around. Every time her body involuntarily kicked, she suffered. Every sway of the hip was agony for her. Our decision was based on taking the pain and suffering away from her as that was our burden to endure - not hers. I watched a nurse wrap my daughter's body with bandages so that when she handed her to me, her body parts wouldn't fall off in my arms. The degree of damage that the ABS caused on her body made mid-evil torture chambers look like a walk in the park! 

    And in re: to how late term "abortions" as you call it (which is also VERY offensive!) are done - you are also wrong. A procedure known as a KLC is done prior to a D & E being done. At the time the D&E take place, the baby has already passed. Get your facts straight before you start to spout your verbal diarrhea!

    So screw you! You are talking out of your a$$ on a topic you know nothing about! And how dare you to judge! What gives you the right? Would you honestly say that you would have your child's body ripped apart while he/she was alive inside of you and not do anything to stop their suffering? Are you so selfish that you would ask your child to endure that degree of suffering b/c you loved them? Guess what? I love my child more than my own life! And b/c of my love, I let her go. 

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    imageblack.kat:

    Please go back and read my posts about late term abortions, it is the way they are done that I am judging, they are horrible ways to kill anyone, much less an unborn child.  

    I didn't "kill" my child, you @sshat. I saved her. Eat @hit....  

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    Roxy, I was thinking of you when reading black.cat's posts. I read your blog a couple months ago and can't even begin to comprehend what you went through. Truth is, she won't be able to either. She'll just stay shielded behind her beliefs and blissful ignorance.
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    imagescarlette+noir:
    Roxy, I was thinking of you when reading black.cat's posts. I read your blog a couple months ago and can't even begin to comprehend what you went through. Truth is, she won't be able to either. She'll just stay shielded behind her beliefs and blissful ignorance.

    Roxy, I'm lurking from the Oct'11 board and I just feel compelled to express how sorry I am for the loss of your daughter. As Scarlette says above, there's really no way for anyone else to be able to comprehend your pain and I'm sure it must feel very isolating for you and your family. You will continually be in my thoughts and prayers and I wish you peace in the sweet memory of your little girl.

    Have a wonderfully H&H 9 months and try not to get tangled in the short-sighted convictions of other people. ((HUGS))

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
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    I try not to get into these arguments because people like Black Kat will never change her mind. She will (hopefully) never have to go through a tragedy that many women have been forced to go through and she will shield herself from any judgement saying that she loves and worries about women.

    I'm sure the Georgia politician who put up this law tells himself that he loves women and cares about their lives and their babies. That doesn't matter, the fact he loves women does not make the law any less abhorrent or demeaning to women.  

     

    And Black Kat, please stop saying that science is on your side. Please cite your sources. Peer reviewed articles. I did a quick JSTOR search but could not find anything to back you up.  

    DS born 9/13/2012
    BFP#5: 8/21/2016
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    imageintheflowers:
    I just don't understand why all of these supposed "pro-life" advocates always choose abortion as their issue of choice. Why not choose issues like pregnancy prevention education, access to birth control, fostering, infant mortality and the terrible disparities associated with income and race, access to prenatal care, funding for support programs for single mothers and low-income families (like childcare, continuing education, assistance with rent, food, and supplies)? No, clearly, making abortion illegal or at least difficult is much more important.

    I know, right!  My pregnant friend and I (who is also Latina) say that we finally have something Republicans care about, a fetus.  

    DS born 9/13/2012
    BFP#5: 8/21/2016
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    imageroxyttandme:
    imageblack.kat:

    crap.  okay.  so the whole comparing us to cows is REALLY stupid among other descriptive words I can't use on thebump... however... I agree 100% with no abortions after 20 wks (yes I am prolife and I do not agree with any abortion at any stage unless it is 100% certain the mother will die).  I do not think that a woman should carry a dead child in her womb, I had a miscarriage and had a d/c, obviously this sort of thinking is INSANE.  But, when it comes to anything else, I personally am against an aboriton being done even on a child who the doctors are sure will not survive - really, because most of the abortions that are done to terminate these children is not humane and not pain-free (unless the child is given pain medication obviously but I have never been able to find numbers of unborn children given pain meds when doing this sort of procedure). Usually late-term abortions are done by 'intact dilation and extraction', 'Instillation abortion' or 'dilation and evacuation'.  You can google those yourself.

    I could go on and on, but I had to say something, because I know this is a POV not many people will speak up for.

    I know I will get flamed, I know it - abortion is not a popular thing to discuss on thebump and even more unpopular is the pro-life stance on it.  I have known women who have had to make these sorts of decisions (and I could be the next one in the situation) and I never pointed a finger and I never will, nor will I judge, but this is my personal feeling on this issue.  And I want to be clear that my personal opinion is not twisted into some sort of attack on women.

    I just have to say, your post makes me sick. Not only do you have your fact absolutely wrong, you personally offended me.

    I terminate my child's life at 23 weeks 5 days due to Amniotic Band Syndrome. Like my pg, the VAST majority of late term terminations are wanted pgs and are due to medical cause - not the lack to desire to keep the child. My daughter had bands ripping through and filleting her body open which caused more amputations, distress and suffering than even I can wrap my brain around. Every time her body involuntarily kicked, she suffered. Every sway of the hip was agony for her. Our decision was based on taking the pain and suffering away from her as that was our burden to endure - not hers. I watched a nurse wrap my daughter's body with bandages so that when she handed her to me, her body parts wouldn't fall off in my arms. The degree of damage that the ABS caused on her body made mid-evil torture chambers look like a walk in the park! 

    And in re: to how late term "abortions" as you call it (which is also VERY offensive!) are done - you are also wrong. A procedure known as a KLC is done prior to a D & E being done. At the time the D&E take place, the baby has already passed. Get your facts straight before you start to spout your verbal diarrhea!

    So screw you! You are talking out of your a$$ on a topic you know nothing about! And how dare you to judge! What gives you the right? Would you honestly say that you would have your child's body ripped apart while he/she was alive inside of you and not do anything to stop their suffering? Are you so selfish that you would ask your child to endure that degree of suffering b/c you loved them? Guess what? I love my child more than my own life! And b/c of my love, I let her go. 

    Roxy, I am so sorry! I couldn't even begin to post when I read this last night because all I could think about was you and your daughter. I cannot imagine having finding out my child had ABS and not being able to terminate. That sounds so inhumane. I am sorry you had to go through that, and I am sorry that there are people out there who judge you and think that option shouldn't be allowed. You are a brave and wonderful mother, and I want to thank you for sharing your story.  

    image

    Elizabeth Grace 11.20.05 Nora June 7.15.08 Beatrix Catherine 9.4.12
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    I feel like throwing my two cents into this thread, just because.

    I am extremely pro-life. I do not support abortion when it's just for the convenience of the mother. That being said...there is a HUGE problem with someone wanting a woman to have to carry her dead child to term. That's disgusting and wrong. And there are legitimate reasons to terminate a pregnancy that, even as a very conservative woman, do not offend me in the least. Like Roxy's case. There is NO PART of me that judges her or thinks she did the wrong thing, at all. I can't imagine being in her shoes and having to make that decision. She wasn't "aborting" her child for her own convenience...she gently, humanely terminated the pregnancy because her child was suffering unimaginable pain. 

    In situations where a mother's life is at risk or in cases like Roxy's, it's not my place to make that decision for them, nor is it up to a politician who doesn't even own a uterus. I fully support not allowing "for conveniece" abortions, but like I said, there are legitimate reasons to terminate after 20 weeks, and there is zero reason why a woman should be forced to carry her dead child to term. Disgusting. It's not an abortion if the chid has already died, so what's the point of that?

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    imageblack.kat:
    imageterri.m.reid@gmail.com:

    @black.kat

    #1. You assume I haven't done research on prolife websites. You would be incorrect. I have seen the pictures and read the descriptions of what happens. I felt that I couldn't make an informed decision without doing that. I cried, but didn't change my mind.

    #2. There are lots of women who get abortions for lots of reasons. I don't judge any of them because I can't know the full story. I don't believe that abortions should be used as a form of birth control, but I also KNOW that at least a reasonable amount of those aborted babies would have been born into a life of a lot of pain. Not only those who were aborted for medical reasons, but for socio-economic reasons, drugs, apathy, etc.

    Read Freakonomics by Steven Levit. An amazing book, largely about other topics, but there is a section in on abortion that is based on fact, statistics, and reality.

     

    And now I'm off to bed. And hopefully won't check this futile thread tomorrow. Again, I'm not trying to change your mind. You are welcome to get as few abortions as you'd like and to judge/worry about anyone you'd like. But you aren't going to change my mind either.

    I am not judging anyone, but that seems to always be the thing that people like to lean back on, that I am (or prolife people are) judging these women in these situations - we are NOT.  I can't say it enough, because people don't want to admit that we do actually care about the woman, about her unborn child, about her husband or partner, about her family and they ignore the attempts made to prove how much we care.

    All abortions, for any reason, are a form of birth control.  It is a simple, but heartbreaking truth.

    I could really disect your #2 - but you said you are off to bed.  If you are interested in hearing how science and prolife programs can completely invalidate why you wrote, please message me, but I doubt you will.

    And my focus isn't to change your mind, believe it or not (just another assumption like the judgement thing).  Only you can change your mind once you are at the point where you can validate your old way of thinking.

    Like I said, I know what I have to say isn't popular, and I don't make many friends this way believe it or not.  But I like to push what people have settled on choosing and I am interested to see if what is said by others can push me in a different direction.

    Thank you for your permission to let me not get abortions and judge/worry others, though, that was thoughtful!  I don't get abortions and I try not to judge, but I do worry about others esp those unborn little ones.  I am glad you find that acceptable!

     

    Black Kat, I'm a super conservative, pro-life Christian woman. But I cannot and will not agree with you on the part I bolded. Are you saying that Roxy terminated as a means of "birth control"? That's offensive. When my mom was pregnant with my sister, she developed severe preeclampsia. They didn't even think she'd make it to the hospital alive because her blood pressure was so off. Thankfully she was far enough along to deliver my sister into the NICU, but if she hadn't been, the only way to keep her alive would have been to terminate the pregnancy. Are you saying that my mom should have just let herself die rather than do what it took to live?

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    imageblindvictory:

    I feel like throwing my two cents into this thread, just because.

    I am extremely pro-life. I do not support abortion when it's just for the convenience of the mother. That being said...there is a HUGE problem with someone wanting a woman to have to carry her dead child to term. That's disgusting and wrong. And there are legitimate reasons to terminate a pregnancy that, even as a very conservative woman, do not offend me in the least. Like Roxy's case. There is NO PART of me that judges her or thinks she did the wrong thing, at all. I can't imagine being in her shoes and having to make that decision. She wasn't "aborting" her child for her own convenience...she gently, humanely terminated the pregnancy because her child was suffering unimaginable pain. 

    In situations where a mother's life is at risk or in cases like Roxy's, it's not my place to make that decision for them, nor is it up to a politician who doesn't even own a uterus. I fully support not allowing "for conveniece" abortions, but like I said, there are legitimate reasons to terminate after 20 weeks, and there is zero reason why a woman should be forced to carry her dead child to term. Disgusting. It's not an abortion if the chid has already died, so what's the point of that?

     

    Technically a loss is a spontaneous abortion, so removing the tissue and fetus is as well.  

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    imageblack.kat:

    crap.  okay.  so the whole comparing us to cows is REALLY stupid among other descriptive words I can't use on thebump... however... I agree 100% with no abortions after 20 wks (yes I am prolife and I do not agree with any abortion at any stage unless it is 100% certain the mother will die).  I do not think that a woman should carry a dead child in her womb, I had a miscarriage and had a d/c, obviously this sort of thinking is INSANE.  But, when it comes to anything else, I personally am against an aboriton being done even on a child who the doctors are sure will not survive - really, because most of the abortions that are done to terminate these children is not humane and not pain-free (unless the child is given pain medication obviously but I have never been able to find numbers of unborn children given pain meds when doing this sort of procedure). Usually late-term abortions are done by 'intact dilation and extraction', 'Instillation abortion' or 'dilation and evacuation'.  You can google those yourself.

    I could go on and on, but I had to say something, because I know this is a POV not many people will speak up for.

    I know I will get flamed, I know it - abortion is not a popular thing to discuss on thebump and even more unpopular is the pro-life stance on it.  I have known women who have had to make these sorts of decisions (and I could be the next one in the situation) and I never pointed a finger and I never will, nor will I judge, but this is my personal feeling on this issue.  And I want to be clear that my personal opinion is not twisted into some sort of attack on women.

    I cant bold on an Ipad...are you a idiot? You actually cited Google as an educational resource for your bullshiit post? Youre not attacking women here, youre just seriously uneducated and misinformed which honestly is scarier 

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
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    imageblack.kat:
    imageterri.m.reid@gmail.com:

    @black.kat

    The difference is that pro-choice people aren't trying to make any decisions for you. You are welcome to have any opinion you want, but that doesn't mean there should be legislation forcing that opinion on others, whose circumstances you can't know.

    I understand that.  However, the decision that is at stake here is the life of another human being.  We step in all of the time to save the lives of people (out of the womb of course) in this country and other countries and it is the right thing to do, to save lives of those being threatened... yet, when the lives are hidden away in the womb, it is "forcing that 'opinion' on others"?

    I have my opinion, but my opinion is backed by science and realty, you cannot argue that an unborn child (in this case 20+ wks) is any less human than a child born premature at 25+ weeks and feels less pain, can you?

    This is where the matter of 'opinion' points its finger at pro-choice - it is a matter of personal opinion when a baby is a baby worth life or when a fetus is just a pregnancy and at the mercy of the 'choice' of the mother.  Those are opinions, not facts.

    Of course...cause science and reality = Google. When you actually experience first-hand a pregnancy where you *know* your baby will die come on back and share all your nonsense with the rest of us who have. 

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    imageroxyttandme:
    imageblack.kat:

    crap.  okay.  so the whole comparing us to cows is REALLY stupid among other descriptive words I can't use on thebump... however... I agree 100% with no abortions after 20 wks (yes I am prolife and I do not agree with any abortion at any stage unless it is 100% certain the mother will die).  I do not think that a woman should carry a dead child in her womb, I had a miscarriage and had a d/c, obviously this sort of thinking is INSANE.  But, when it comes to anything else, I personally am against an aboriton being done even on a child who the doctors are sure will not survive - really, because most of the abortions that are done to terminate these children is not humane and not pain-free (unless the child is given pain medication obviously but I have never been able to find numbers of unborn children given pain meds when doing this sort of procedure). Usually late-term abortions are done by 'intact dilation and extraction', 'Instillation abortion' or 'dilation and evacuation'.  You can google those yourself.

    I could go on and on, but I had to say something, because I know this is a POV not many people will speak up for.

    I know I will get flamed, I know it - abortion is not a popular thing to discuss on thebump and even more unpopular is the pro-life stance on it.  I have known women who have had to make these sorts of decisions (and I could be the next one in the situation) and I never pointed a finger and I never will, nor will I judge, but this is my personal feeling on this issue.  And I want to be clear that my personal opinion is not twisted into some sort of attack on women.

    I just have to say, your post makes me sick. Not only do you have your fact absolutely wrong, you personally offended me.

    I terminate my child's life at 23 weeks 5 days due to Amniotic Band Syndrome. Like my pg, the VAST majority of late term terminations are wanted pgs and are due to medical cause - not the lack to desire to keep the child. My daughter had bands ripping through and filleting her body open which caused more amputations, distress and suffering than even I can wrap my brain around. Every time her body involuntarily kicked, she suffered. Every sway of the hip was agony for her. Our decision was based on taking the pain and suffering away from her as that was our burden to endure - not hers. I watched a nurse wrap my daughter's body with bandages so that when she handed her to me, her body parts wouldn't fall off in my arms. The degree of damage that the ABS caused on her body made mid-evil torture chambers look like a walk in the park! 

    And in re: to how late term "abortions" as you call it (which is also VERY offensive!) are done - you are also wrong. A procedure known as a KLC is done prior to a D & E being done. At the time the D&E take place, the baby has already passed. Get your facts straight before you start to spout your verbal diarrhea!

    So screw you! You are talking out of your a$$ on a topic you know nothing about! And how dare you to judge! What gives you the right? Would you honestly say that you would have your child's body ripped apart while he/she was alive inside of you and not do anything to stop their suffering? Are you so selfish that you would ask your child to endure that degree of suffering b/c you loved them? Guess what? I love my child more than my own life! And b/c of my love, I let her go. 

    I am so sorry for your loss and the pain you and your family have been thru. I would love for some of these girls to walk a mile in our shoes (or at least have some common sense) before opening their mouths 

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    I watched my SIL make the choice to continue to carry a dying baby when she was 20 weeks. By 29 weeks the baby had been overtaken by some sort of growth (they never told us what it was) & my SIL looked 12 months pregnant. She began to bleed but labor never started and she ended up with a c-section and watched her dying daughter take two breaths before passing, my SIL nearly bled out too because of the medical issues the growth caused. I always remember that when I want to say I'm pro-life. If I'm for an unborn child having a chance at life, but for a woman making the choice to let go a baby who is dying, what does that make me?? I confuse myself on this point every time. I'm certainly not a farm animal though, that was way beyond bad form! And not having the option for medically necessary abortions  is bull.
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    No one will probably see this since I'm late to the game, and I'm just a dirty lurker anyway, but just thought I'd add this.

    In Africa where abortion is illegal the abortion rate is just as high if not higher than in developed countries where abortion is legal (and could be even higher than they think because there is not great data - since it is illegal).  It's been shown that making abortion illegal does NOT decrease abortion rates, it really just makes unsafe abortions happen instead of safe abortions with a high mortality for the mother and numerous complications.

    So, whether you agree with abortion or not, whether it is legal or illegal... it is going to happen regardless.  So, I completely agree with whoever questioned why pro-life people focus so much on abortion.  Instead, focus on prevention.  Primary health care people.  If you truly, honestly care about the mother then the best way to protect the mother is to keep abortion legal with resources and education for prevention.

    I know this isn't Africa, but it used to happen in the US/Canada as well when abortion was illegal.

    I did a paper on this last year, here are my sources.  I don't know if you guys will have access to all the links since they are from *gasp! academic databases, but here they are regardless.

    Braam, T. & Hessini, L.  (Apr. 2004).  The Power Dynamics Perpetuating Unsafe Abortion in Africa: A feminist perspective.  African Journal of Reproductive Health Vol. 8, No. 1. 43-51.  doi:10.2307/3583304

    Brookman-Amissah, E.  (Apr. 2004).  Woman-Centered Safe Abortion Care in Africa.  African Journal of Reproductive Health Vol. 8, No.1.  37-42.  doi:10.2307/3583303

    Grimes, D.A., Benson, J., Singh, S. Romero, M., Ganatra, B., Okonofua, S. (October 2006).  Unsafe abortion: the preventable pandemic.  The Lancet Sexual and Reproductive Health Series.  (4). Retrieved from https://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/unsafe_

    abortion/article_unsafe_abortion.pdf

    Hessini, L., Brookman-Amissah, E. & Crane, B.  (Dec. 2006).  Global Policy Change and Women?s Access to Safe Abortion: The impact of the World Health Organization?s guidance in Africa.  African Journal of Reproductive Health Vol. 10, No. 3.  14-27.  doi:10.2307/30032468

    Hord, C. & Wolf, M.  (Apr. 2004).  Breaking the Cycle of Unsafe Abortion in Africa.  African Journal of Reproductive Health Vol. 8, No. 1.  doi:10.2307/3583302

    Mundigo, A.  Determinants of unsafe induced abortion in developing countries.  In Warriner, I. & Shah, I (Ed.).  (2006).  Preventing Unsafe Abortions and Its Consequences: priorities for research and action.  [Electronic resource].  Retrieved from https://www.who.int/

    reproductivehealth/publications/unsafe_abortion/0939253763.pdf

    World Health Organization (WHO).  (2003).  Safe Abortion: technical and policy guidance for health systems.  [Electronic resource].  Retrieved from https://whqlibdoc.who.int/

    publications/2003/9241590343.pdf

    World Health Organizaton (WHO).  (2007).  Unsafe abortion: global and regional estimates of incidence of unsafe abortion and associated mortality in 2003 (5th Ed.).  [Electronic resource].  Retrieved from https://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2007/9789241596121_eng.pdf

    World Health Organization (WHO).  (2008).  Mid-level health care providers are a safe alternative to doctors for first trimester abortions in developing countries.  [Electronic resource].  Retrienved from https://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/2008/WHO_RHR_

    HRP_08.15_eng.pdf.

     

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    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

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    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Go f*ck yourself. I hope you have a wonderful and healthy pregnancy you giant a$$hole. You have zero tact. I hope your own daughters dont grow up to be as mindless as you are

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
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    All I can do here is shake my head at the GA legislature, and at black.kat. Just awful. That's all I got.
    image  image
    Carina 12.28.2010 | Aurelia 9.23.12 | Chart - Round 3
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    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Please show me some scientific studies that say life begins at conception. Anything I have ever read states a pregnancy isn't viable until around the beginning of third tri which is also when science believes a fetus can first feel pain.  

  • Options
    imagecantalopes24:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Please show me some scientific studies that say life begins at conception. Anything I have ever read states a pregnancy isn't viable until around the beginning of third tri which is also when science believes a fetus can first feel pain.  

    You gonna have her break out the medical resources she has? Good, cause I would love to see what she cites.  

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • Options
    imagenic326:
    imagecantalopes24:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Please show me some scientific studies that say life begins at conception. Anything I have ever read states a pregnancy isn't viable until around the beginning of third tri which is also when science believes a fetus can first feel pain.  

    You gonna have her break out the medical resources she has? Good, cause I would love to see what she cites.  

    But OMG science!!
  • Options
    imagecantalopes24:
    imagenic326:
    imagecantalopes24:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Please show me some scientific studies that say life begins at conception. Anything I have ever read states a pregnancy isn't viable until around the beginning of third tri which is also when science believes a fetus can first feel pain.  

    You gonna have her break out the medical resources she has? Good, cause I would love to see what she cites.  

    But OMG science!!

    Hmm..something "us liberals" know nothing about 

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    Black.Cat - or whatever you name is.... 

    If some one had the gal to claim that I "killed" my child to my face, I would knock their lights out. Not a threat - just a fact. Perhaps you should be a bit more careful with your choice of words? You lack of compassion and understanding is appalling. And I bet you call yourself a Christian to boot. Bottom line, you make me sick. I hope you never have to go through something like we did. And let me tell you, I am so glad to hear that 100% know without a shadow of a doubt how you would feel and react in a situation you never experienced - a situation like mine.  That is just astounding. You are so full of $h!t! 

    You aren't worth my time or energy. F yourself.... 

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    imageanitalynn:

    A nestie on my local board put it this way once:

    "You are pregnant and are forced to have an abortion. You say you don't want one? Ok - that makes you pro-choice. You are a supporter of having the choice, even if that choice means you personally do not want to have an abortion under any circumstances."

    Pro-life to me means you are pro-giving birth - under any and all circumstances TheEnd. Pro-choice means you are pro-having individual choices, even if that choice means you would never in a million years consider aborting a pregnancy under any circumstances. Pro-choicers just don't want anyone else to make that decision for them - by a medical procedure they don't consent to, by legislation, etc.

    If only life were as simple as yes and no. Black and white.

    It isn't. There are many shades of color between black and white, and to simplify this or any issue in such a way just isn't realistic.  

     

    I have never had anyone put the "pro-life/pro-choice" topic into such a term and I have to admit, I really respect how you explained the pro-choice stand.  Looking at it defined that way, I not only understand, but completely agree with it. 

    However you first said that you are pregnant and forced to have an abortion, but then you choose not to - then you are a supporter of choice.  Yes, well, sort of.  If someone is being forced to do something than they don't really have a choice, so there is no freedom of choice.  When talking about abortion here, when talking about a choice about an unplanned pregnancy which is the majority of abortions done in this country (not one where the life of the mother is at stake or the health of the child) I don't think that whether or not a child has the right to life should be hanging in the balance of someone else's choice... I just don't.

    You are right, it is not so black and white - there are many gray areas and that is why in one of my first posts I stated that when it comes to the life of the mother, that is the true place for choice.

    Thank your again for posting this... It really has me thinking.

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    imageroxyttandme:

    Black.Cat - or whatever you name is.... 

    If some one had the gal to claim that I "killed" my child to my face, I would knock their lights out. Not a threat - just a fact. Perhaps you should be a bit more careful with your choice of words? You lack of compassion and understanding is appalling. And I bet you call yourself a Christian to boot. Bottom line, you make me sick. I hope you never have to go through something like we did. And let me tell you, I am so glad to hear that 100% know without a shadow of a doubt how you would feel and react in a situation you never experienced - a situation like mine.  That is just astounding. You are so full of $h!t! 

    You aren't worth my time or energy. F yourself.... 

    I am going to tread here lightly, because I do not want to upset you anymore, but I didn't want to ignore your post to me.

    There is not much that I can say, since you are correct I have never personally been through this type of situation.  I did have a miscarriage and I did have to go through a lot of things that took a long time to make a decision on what to do and what not to do.  No one's experiences are ever the same, but that does not mean that ones pain is worse or more imortant than anothers.  I had sit by and watch a friend go through a late-term sickness with her un born child and early birth and it was horrible and heartbreaking and I watched her try and weigh what choice to make.  So to say that I have no experience in this, is not true.  I do not need to prove myself to you, but I had to point out that I am not the person you are trying to make out to be "so full of $h!t" as you so nicely put it.

    I do call myself a Catholic, but how that measures up in your eyes, based off of how you recieved the things that I said on here, is not for me to worry about.

    I am sorry for you loss.

     

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  • Options
    imagecantalopes24:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Please show me some scientific studies that say life begins at conception. Anything I have ever read states a pregnancy isn't viable until around the beginning of third tri which is also when science believes a fetus can first feel pain.  

    You want me to dig up what?  That life begins at conception - but then you talk about an unborn baby being viable - those are two completely different things.  And will be a waste of time, if you are one of the people that believe that you are not alive unless you are viable.

    The only real proof we have about when an unborn child can feel pain is when a child born premature shows us they have pain reflexes... I would be assuming that we can all agree on that, unless I can site some sort of study...

    I will see what I can come up with!  Thanks for the challenge.  If I can't find it then I guess we both get to have the excuse that our opinion on when life begins is good enough for ourselves...

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  • Options
    imagenic326:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Go f*ck yourself. I hope you have a wonderful and healthy pregnancy you giant a$$hole. You have zero tact. I hope your own daughters dont grow up to be as mindless as you are

    Nice way to show that your opinion is valid - by swearing at me, calling me names, telling my level of tact, and saying I am mindless.  Wow, you have totally changed my opinion by the way you decided to handle this!

    Who are the judgemental ones now???

    I would never think to ever go down to that level, but everyone handles things differently.

    Thank you to the ladies, who may disagree with me, and maybe even be mad at what I am saying, but having the class to keep it above the swearing and name-calling level.

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    imagecantalopes24:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Please show me some scientific studies that say life begins at conception. Anything I have ever read states a pregnancy isn't viable until around the beginning of third tri which is also when science believes a fetus can first feel pain.  

     

    "Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

    "A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo)."

    Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

     

    "Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the femal gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote."

    T.W. Sadler, Langman's Medical Embryology, 10th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2006. p. 11.

     

    "[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being."

    Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

     

    "Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a 'moment') is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte."

    Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola M?ller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.

     

    "Human embryos begin development following the fusion of definitive male and female gametes during fertilization... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

    William J. Larsen, Essentials of Human Embryology. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998. pp. 1, 14.

     

    "It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

    Clark Edward Corliss, Patten's Human Embryology: Elements of Clinical Development. New York: McGraw Hill, 1976. p. 30.

     

    "The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops."

    "The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

    J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders, 1974. pp. 17, 23.

     

     

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    imageblack.kat:
    imagecantalopes24:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Please show me some scientific studies that say life begins at conception. Anything I have ever read states a pregnancy isn't viable until around the beginning of third tri which is also when science believes a fetus can first feel pain.  

     

    "Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

    "A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo)."

    Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

     

    "Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the femal gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote."

    T.W. Sadler, Langman's Medical Embryology, 10th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2006. p. 11.

     

    "[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being."

    Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

     

    "Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a 'moment') is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte."

    Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola M?ller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.

     

    "Human embryos begin development following the fusion of definitive male and female gametes during fertilization... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

    William J. Larsen, Essentials of Human Embryology. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998. pp. 1, 14.

     

    "It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

    Clark Edward Corliss, Patten's Human Embryology: Elements of Clinical Development. New York: McGraw Hill, 1976. p. 30.

     

    "The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops."

    "The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

    J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders, 1974. pp. 17, 23.

     

     

     

    Do you need more... I can get more.

    A child being viable does not make it less human.  A child who may not be "viable" still has all of the DNA and physical make-up of a human being.

    A child that is born at 25 wks really isn't viable, but can be kept alive with medical attention, but because he or she needs aid to stay alive makes them less human?

    And even more, a healthy full-term baby really isn't "viable", sure it can breathe on his own, but he cannot feed himself or care for himself within his enviornment... therefore not "viable" - this child needs assistance to stay alive and grow... just as an unborn child needs.

     

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    imageEquestrianLifeMomma:
    I watched my SIL make the choice to continue to carry a dying baby when she was 20 weeks. By 29 weeks the baby had been overtaken by some sort of growth (they never told us what it was) & my SIL looked 12 months pregnant. She began to bleed but labor never started and she ended up with a c-section and watched her dying daughter take two breaths before passing, my SIL nearly bled out too because of the medical issues the growth caused. I always remember that when I want to say I'm pro-life. If I'm for an unborn child having a chance at life, but for a woman making the choice to let go a baby who is dying, what does that make me?? I confuse myself on this point every time. I'm certainly not a farm animal though, that was way beyond bad form! And not having the option for medically necessary abortions  is bull.

    Was it anencephaly? Many of them can't process amniotic fluid, so it keeps building up and building up. They can stick a needle in your belly (much like an amino) to draw out the extra fluid. But, this is a temporary relief. It will need to be done throughout the second and third trimesters.  


    BFP #1 via IUI ~ L (Fatal Birth Defect) 4/7/10
    BFP #2 via IUI ~ m/c
    BFP #3 via cancelled IUI ~ C (2lb 3oz; HELLP) 5/16/11
    BFP #4 via the natural (free!) way ~ E (8lb 11oz) 9/13/12
    image







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    imageblack.kat:
    imagenic326:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Go f*ck yourself. I hope you have a wonderful and healthy pregnancy you giant a$$hole. You have zero tact. I hope your own daughters dont grow up to be as mindless as you are

    Nice way to show that your opinion is valid - by swearing at me, calling me names, telling my level of tact, and saying I am mindless.  Wow, you have totally changed my opinion by the way you decided to handle this!

    Who are the judgemental ones now???

    I would never think to ever go down to that level, but everyone handles things differently.

    Thank you to the ladies, who may disagree with me, and maybe even be mad at what I am saying, but having the class to keep it above the swearing and name-calling level.

    Yeah, I kinda went overboard with my response. I have lost many unborn children and one in particular because of a condition that was fatal. I am still very emotional about that, as Roxy is too obviously. Her and I share something that you dont...true we have all had losses...but our are a little different than yours (and yes I have m/c several times). But dont come out here with your high-horse, "I know science" attitude (are you employed in the medical field BTW?), condescending attitude and call ME judgemental. So yeah, I did go a little crazy with the swearing but you can still go fvvuck yourself. Biitch. 

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
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    imagenic326:
    imageblack.kat:
    imagenic326:
    imageblack.kat:

    I knew I would come back to these sort of posts.

    I didn't "site" google as a resource... I said you can google them as to find out what the definition is.

    And for the billionth gazillionth time, I did not say I was against women or their choices in these specific situations - it is like the moment someone speaks up against the crowd they are labeled something that is not true.  Unfortunately, what I have said about abortions in general and abortions done late term (and that I might also add is not ALWAYS about the life of the mother or that the child will not survive - sometimes it is about gender, or about differing abilities, such as trismony 21 or how the circumstance of the mother's life changes- those children are aborted every day in this country too and late term) have been generally linked into how I speak on the topic of the mother's health and baby's health - I am sure with all of my posts, I am to somewhat blame.

    I never said I was judging, and I have explained that as well....

    Science has proven that life begins at the moment of conception and common sense tells us that without conception a person wouldn't exist.  Or am I wrong?  How about the unborn child's genetic make-up being present and the DNA - or am I wrong there as well?  Do I really need to dig up medical resources for you - what? you are going to go to your local library and check it out?  Let me know.

    The bottom line of all of this is that I was clear about MY PERSONAL feelings on this topic and none of them are popular, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, just as YOUR PERSONAL feelings on this topic doesn't make you a horrible person - it makes our feelings and thoughts on this different as well as the information we have on the subject is different.  I am confused as to why others can post their popular views and yet when the someone comes in with a different view point, well, they are viewed as a person who doesn't understand or hates women or only cares about the child until it is born or is made out to be stupid because someone assumes she has never been involved in a situation like this (you have no idea what I have been through).

    My heart goes out to mothers in the situation where their child is ill and will not survive past the womb, if you want to get mad at me because unless a doctor can prove to me that my child is in constant pain in the womb, I would not choose to terminate, and (as I said before) would birth my child and give pain medication for as long as they survive, then that is fine, get mad.  Keep in mind though I never pointed a finger at anyone and made them out to not knowing what they are talking about just because they didn't handle a situation the way that I personally would - so who is judgmental here?  That is how I would handle it, I never said that is how everyone else should handle it and I never said anyone who doesn't handle it like I would to go back and go through that situation and then come back and talk to me about it.

    I know that this is a no-win type of discussion and I respect each and everyone of you ladies as I hope you can me, even if I don't see things the way you do.

    So I will admit I am having a hard time keeping up with who has said what and what each person has posted, which I am sure someone will see as weak and thus determine that because of that I have no idea what I am talking about with this conversation or with anything in the future (I have seen that done on this board).

    So I am going to stop now... I hope that some open minded people saw my posts for what they are and understood where I am coming from, although may not agree, did not jump to the conclusion that I don't care about mothers and children.  For those of you that think differently, all I can ask is that your liberal thoughts remain true and do not judge me because I am different than you.

    Go f*ck yourself. I hope you have a wonderful and healthy pregnancy you giant a$$hole. You have zero tact. I hope your own daughters dont grow up to be as mindless as you are

    Nice way to show that your opinion is valid - by swearing at me, calling me names, telling my level of tact, and saying I am mindless.  Wow, you have totally changed my opinion by the way you decided to handle this!

    Who are the judgemental ones now???

    I would never think to ever go down to that level, but everyone handles things differently.

    Thank you to the ladies, who may disagree with me, and maybe even be mad at what I am saying, but having the class to keep it above the swearing and name-calling level.

    Yeah, I kinda went overboard with my response. I have lost many unborn children and one in particular because of a condition that was fatal. I am still very emotional about that, as Roxy is too obviously. Her and I share something that you dont...true we have all had losses...but our are a little different than yours (and yes I have m/c several times). But dont come out here with your high-horse, "I know science" attitude (are you employed in the medical field BTW?), condescending attitude and call ME judgemental. So yeah, I did go a little crazy with the swearing but you can still go fvvuck yourself. Biitch. 

    Again, I am sorry for you losses and I can understand that my responses and feelings on this topic (which are different than yours) can piss you off.  I never said I was on high horse, that is how you have determined by your personal opinion of me to be, which is fine, everyone is entitled to think what they want.

    I understand that your losses and different than mine, which I posted, but just because I haven't had the exact same situation happen to me, doesn't make me a biitch.

    No, I am not in the medical field, but I do volunteer my time to work with women who have unplanned pregnancies, women who have been affected negatively by abortion and women who have lost unborn children for all different types of reasons.  So, as much as you would like to somehow discredit me, it isn't working.

    You have called me numerous names, you have said numerous things to me that are judgemental... I just find it interesting that if I went to use the language and talk you use, I would be swarmed on this board in NO time, yet, you have a free pass to use such language.

    It is one thing to talk about this topic in ways that help people understand your point of view and there are ways to talk about this topic to make people unable to learn from you.  I know what I say isn't popluar, but I would never call you a name or try and drag you down based on your opinion.... I never personally attack you, no matter what story you like to make up to try and prove this to be true.

     

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    imageMackalien13:

    I don't think this has anything to do with when life begins. I believe it begins at conception, but I still fully support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy late-term. I highly doubt people are terminating their babies en masse because they don't like the sex. Also, I am not going to judge a person for terminating because a child has a genetic conditon. It's not my choice to say what kind of quality of life is acceptable for my child. In addition, it makes me sick to think of a mother being forced to carry her dying or dead child to term. As far, as fetuses feeling pain, I think it would be pretty damn horrific to make a baby be born alive and then suffocate.

    But the overall point is...it's not. my. choice. to. make. And it's not yours either.

    The posts I made about life beginning and conception and siting the resources, were asked, and if I didn't respond I would have been pinned as unable to back up what I was saying.  So that is why it is here.

    I am just going to switch the language you used to make sure I am getting your opinion correctly - you believe that a child's life begins at conception, but fully support the women's right to choose to end the life of her unborn child while that child is in the womb.

    You said you "highly doubt" people are terminating their babiesin masses because they don't like the sex... go look up what China and India are doing to their population of girls.  See if you can find out that they are aborting girls in high numbers because boys are seen as more desirable.  Also, it is happening in America, in the early stages of pregnancy, it is just we are better at hiding it here.

    You also said that it is not your "choice to say what kind of quality of life is acceptable for my child."  I couldn't agree with you more.  We shouldn't have the choice to kill our children if they are a boy or girl, has some sort of birth defect, is missing a limb or two, or will have differing abilities than what we want for them.

    It also makes me sick to think that this congressman or whoever he is thinks women should have to carry a dead child to term - it is insane.

    A child being born and then dying is horrific, just as horrific as being terminated in the womb... it is a very heartbreaking situation and one that I wish no one has to go through.  The procedures to terminate pregnancy aren't comforting or easy to talk about, but just as we describe how horrible the death would be after birth, we should be able to talk about how the death is before birth - if it is part of our "choice" as women, it is my opinion that, we should know all of the details of what we choose for our children.  FYI - that is not a judgement, no matter how hard one might want to twist it....

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    imagedamabo80:

    Was it anencephaly? Many of them can't process amniotic fluid, so it keeps building up and building up. They can stick a needle in your belly (much like an amino) to draw out the extra fluid. But, this is a temporary relief. It will need to be done throughout the second and third trimesters.  

    It could have been. Like I said they didn't divulge details, which is fine, it was their choices, not ours. Their daughter had a slightly deformed skull though, I remember them being extremely pissed when my MIL had come to check on them at the hospital and she went screaming over to her deceased granddaughter "My baby! My baby!" and without permission removing the baby's hospital cap (instead of going to SIL to comfort her in any way first). 

    I always wondered what had happened with my SIL. I often thought, could they have done something? But whatever happened it seemed irreversible in the womb. 

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