Anyone up for a debate on our justice system

CocoBrynne

Let's keep it clean   This is inspired after I read an absolutely disgusting story about a murder that happened 30 minutes from our home.  Here is the link if you are interested, but I warn you it is VERY graphic:

https://www.yorkdispatch.com/news/ci_20289244/pregnant-homicide-victim-tried-comfort-daughter-video-shows

I will summarize it briefly:  A man stabbed his pregnant girlfriend to death at a hotel in front of their 5 yr old child.  Almost the entire attack was caught on video, plus there was an eyewitness, the hotel clerk, who saw the entire thing.  Of course this worthless human being has legal rights to a trial and all that jazz, but this just got me to thinking, and I'm sure some of the lawyer ladies here will set me straight quick for this line of thinking, but here it goes:

It really irks me that "people" and I use that term loosely in this instance, get so many rights in cases where the evidence is seemingly indisputable.  I feel like that when there is a video for crying out loud of a woman trying to run away, already wounded, being stabbed to death in front her of child no less that the offender should just instantly lose all rights to a fair trial and the priviledges that come with it.  I mean really, how much crack would a judge have to smoke for him to buy ANY possible defense this guy will put up?

I'm sorry I know we live in a civilized society and know that things have to be done a certain way, but cases like this one really rile me up.  It angers me that this bum will probably cop some sort of deal, or if nothing else will sit on death row for 10 yrs, and my tax money will help keep him alive.

CocoBrynne

Oops I posted the wrong link, here is the more detailed account of events

https://www.ydr.com/crime/ci_20291385/man-charged-route-30-hotel-stabbing-that-killed

Mrs.Hizzo

So, specifically, what are you suggesting as an alternative? Under what circumstances would a person not get a trial? How would sentencing work in those cases?

I agree that our justice system is far from perfect, and often frustrating. But if you really think about it, the fact that we guarantee everyone a fair trial is a large part of what makes a democracy. The constitution says that all American citizens have certain rights, and the right to a fair trial is one of them. You don't want to start messing with that and saying that people only have certain rights under certain circumstances...it's a slippery slope. 

eaglesfan700

I just think it is a very slippery slope - where would it end?  I feel like once you give a little bit, it keeps inching away

Mostly I just think you cannot live in a democracy and then pick and choose who gets certain rights

ETA - MrsHizzo, I didn't fully read your response, and then realized I pretty much repeated verbatim what you said lol

kacelle

Granting everyone a fair trial allows defendants to plead not guilty for reason of insanity and such.  

CocoBrynne

Mrs.Hizzo:

So, specifically, what are you suggesting as an alternative? Under what circumstances would a person not get a trial? How would sentencing work in those cases?

I agree that our justice system is far from perfect, and often frustrating. But if you really think about it, the fact that we guarantee everyone a fair trial is a large part of what makes a democracy. The constitution says that all American citizens have certain rights, and the right to a fair trial is one of them. You don't want to start messing with that and saying that people only have certain rights under certain circumstances...it's a slippery slope. 

Logically speaking without any emotions involved I totally agree with everything you said.  Specifically in this instance I think this guy should be drug out and shot, if I'm making my decision on emotion alone.  I fully realize that would be no way to run a country, but it's a nice thought for someone like this guy!

Now that I've calmed down a bit maybe I can explain when I don't think people are entitled to as many rights as another person should be.  For example when there is indisputable evidence such as video proof of the crime, I just feel it's a waste of time and resources and it should be do not pass go straight to sentencing.  Again I know it's not how things are done and I should be grateful I live in a country that allows the things it does, but it still bugs me in certain instances.

eaglesfan700

nowababy:

And actually, these are not the cases that show our justice system is messed up. It will actually probably work really well in this case.

Ditto this.  If his defense attorney is worth anything, he will encourage him to plead guilty to avoid the death sentence, thereby sparing the expense of a trial

CocoBrynne

nowababy:

But you need a trial even in this instance. There has to be a forum to a) show the video to someone (a judge) and b) show the guy the police took into custody and that the prosecutors are now prosecuting and then c) show it's the same person. How would it exactly work if there wasn't a trial?

And actually, these are not the cases that show our justice system is messed up. It will actually probably work really well in this case.

I know, I know    This just really hits home, I hate cases like this to begin with, and with it being so close to home, it's really hard not to get emotional. I just keep thinking about the mother and baby who died and that poor little girl who saw the whole thing and it makes to want to just to rip the guy apart myself.

CocoBrynne

This is clearly why I could never in a million yrs be a judge or lawyer.

Mrs.Hizzo

Coco, I get it...there are some despicable people don't really deserve what our system gives them. But, keep in mind that most lynchings were based on emotion. And the people that organized them probably though they had rock-hard evidence, too. Yes, the guy you referenced will probably eat up who knows how many resources on his way to death row, but it's the price of doing business if you want to live in our country. If America was a police state, he probably wouldn't get the luxury of a fair trial with representation, but none of the rest of us would, either.

MAprincess

kacelle:

Granting everyone a fair trial allows defendants to plead not guilty for reason of insanity and such.  

I personally think the insanity plea is bogus and overused.  What "sane" person goes around killing people???  They are all insane in some way and frankly I don't care if they are.  I sort of agree with op that if it is a public murder and is clearly on video we should save ourselves some taxpayer money and jail him.  (And for those looking for what the definition of whatever this would be- it would be at least one eye witness and a clear video).

I have a couple of friends who were not awarded "fair" trials.  They had minor offenses but terrible lawyers and the juries were far from their "peers".  Some had little to no understanding of the internet and there were a couple that I swear had a borderline IQ.  If I ever went to trial, I'd inform them that my peers had to have at least an equal IQ, education, and understanding of whatever it is I am accused of doing to be considered my "peer".

Temp174496125006552

nowababy:

But you need a trial even in this instance. There has to be a forum to a) show the video to someone (a judge) and b) show the guy the police took into custody and that the prosecutors are now prosecuting and then c) show it's the same person. How would it exactly work if there wasn't a trial?

And actually, these are not the cases that show our justice system is messed up. It will actually probably work really well in this case.

I agree with all of this.  And as long as the police and the DA's office follow protocol, I couldn't agree more with the bolded statement. 

I was a paralegal for a criminal defense attorney in Philly.  You wouldn't believe how many defendants get off on a technicality/some tiny loophole because things weren't done to the letter of the law.  It was disgusting, but I understand why these systems are in place.  Just like I understand why everyone is entitled to a fair and impartial trial.  Is this guy the scum of the earth?  Damn right.  But can you imagine a world where some people are granted a trial and some aren't?  Like the others have said, it's a very slippery slope.

erbear

Our justice system is set up this way because, by and large, it works. That guy will be convicted and spend the rest of his life in jail. Everyone has to be afforded that right, because most cases aren't so cut and dry.

J&A2008

But if he had been a football coach you'd totally be rooting for him. 

eaglesfan700

Hav=Fath:

J&A2008:

But if he had been a football coach you'd totally be rooting for him. 

huh? 

She is referring to the OP being upset that Joe Paterno got fired in the wake of the Penn State sex abuse scandal, even after admitting he knew and wished he had done more.

Touche, J&A - excellent point

CocoBrynne

J&A2008:

But if he had been a football coach you'd totally be rooting for him. 

I love how you seem to pop up only to stir the pot and not to actually contribute anything productive.

CocoBrynne

J&A2008:

But if he had been a football coach you'd totally be rooting for him. 

I love how you seem to pop up only to stir the pot and not to actually contribute anything productive.

J&A2008

You're probably right.  Trying to open your eyes a little may be a poor use of my time, but I'll be optimistic.

CocoBrynne

J&A2008:

You're probably right.  Trying to open your eyes a little may be a poor use of my time, but I'll be optimistic.

My eyes are open just fine, I certainly don't need an internet do gooder trying to 'save' me.  Thanks anyways tho!