Dog people - need advice (kinda long)

brookelynpaisley

So we have two puggles - Paisley (3) and Clover (almost 2). Last night, after feeding them, Clover was sniffing around their bowls for extra morsels and Paisley went after her. Clover frequently does the sniffing thing, but Paisley has never reacted. Paisley bit Clover's ear before we had a chance to get them apart. We crated Paisley (she likes her crate and often goes in it for comfort, so that's why we put her away) for about an hour before re-introducing them. Clover seemed timid at first, but we didn't have any problems the rest of the night.

This morning when I fed them, I put their bowls far apart, and picked them up the moment each dog was done to prevent one getting too close to the other's bowl. Clover still went sniffing and Paisley went at her again. I had to leave for work, so DH got up. He texted me and told me that P was growling at C, so he went to his parents' house to get our spare crate (they usually share a large one at night, but are free during the day) and crated them separately for the day.

I'm just freaked out about this. They've never shown aggression toward each other - they've always been best buds. Is there anything we can do to get them to stop? We try our best to support their pack structure, so I don't know if we're supposed to just let them duke it out. Obviously, we don't want them to hurt each other, though. I'm just not sure what to do. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

btaylor19

I hope you get it figured out.  Has Paisley shown any signs of not feeling well?  I know my dogs get a bit snippy when they are sick.  I am sure there are way smarter people who will have some great advice.

brookelynpaisley

btaylor19:

I hope you get it figured out.  Has Paisley shown any signs of not feeling well?  I know my dogs get a bit snippy when they are sick.  I am sure there are way smarter people who will have some great advice.

No, nothing that I've seen. DH said it's like P just wants nothing to do with C. It's just totally not like them

electricdoctor83

I would first take Paisley to the vet for a full work up to make sure nothing medically is going on with her.  Dogs show sickness and pain in different ways and maybe her aggression is a symptom of something bigger.

I would just keep them separated in different rooms during feeding time for now just to keep both of them safe and slowly reintroduce group feeding.  If it's a power struggle between them they will hopefully just work it out but a sudden change in behavior may be something else entirely.

Sorry you are going through this   I have a doberman and a dane and I can't imagine them starting to fight, it would break my heart to have to keep them separate.

rsrs807

Do you feed them in the same room? We met with a behaviorist last week for other issues with our lab and she said we should feed them separately - visually and physically separated. She told us that checking out the food bowls (like Clover is doing) can actually (and often is, as it sounds like Paisly is doing now) be interpreted as a sign of aggression, because essentially Clover is saying "I have the right to whatever you didn't eat."     All of our dogs have always done that - checked out the food bowls - and it had never occurred to me it could be an issue.

So even though our dogs have never had any issues with this, it was an easy thing to fix - we feed our golden in the kitchen and the lab in his crate (since we are trying to instill in him that his crate is a happy place.)

Is paisley feeling well? Maybe something is physically wrong with her that is setting her off more than normal. 

SheenaNash1

Well, I don't know puggles, so take my advice for what its worth. I have two dogs, one is 8 and the other is 2 and they sometimes go at it. It sounds like they do what you are describing. The older one will nip at the younger one and then hold him down and the younger one with cry out. At first I was totally freaked out by it, it sounded like they were all out brawling and killing each other! But I noticed after a few times that the younger one wasn't actually getting hurt at all. Did Paisley actually hurt Clover last night? Or was it more of a nip bite?

For my dogs I usually yell at them to stop when they get into a scuffle and they ususally end it, but I've read that it could be the older one asserting dominance over the younger one, which is pretty normal in a pack situation. I might try a spray bottle and squirt Paisley when she does that with a command of something like "no bite!" and train her in that way. Or you could also feed them one at a time if its getting bad. Feed Paisley first and then feed Clover, thats what the instructor told us to do when we took Max to his puppy classes. Sorry I can't be more help! GL!

arineve

Are they both males? females? one of each?  I had (up until recently) 4 dogs total...2 of each.  One girl would get nasty about her bowl and the boys would fight out of nowhere.  My suggestion is to put them in separate areas to eat.  I know its a pain the ass but it eliminates the glaring over at the other one.  Also, after a fight do not introduce them so quickly.  After a huge male on male blow out we would keep them separated for a month.  

 Also, crate the aggressor immediately. If the dog keeps acting up you may want to feed in that crate.  Dogs are funny in that way...you never know whats sets them off unless it is obvious.

 Hope that helps!

Arin 

johnson617

I'm sorry I don't have any advice to you. I have a puggle as well (almost 2) but she is the only dog in our house. We did have problems with her attacking our cat for a bit, but we know take her to a doggie day care 3x/week. It seems to help her get out her energy as well, so she isn't interested in attacking the cat. The trainers at the daycare explained that they do enforce pack order, and they let dogs figure it out for themselves while monitoring them for too much aggressive behavior. Which seems like you are already doing. That is all I can think of. Do you have any animal trainers in your area you could call for maybe a consultation? Maybe they'd have the best answer

arineve

electricdoctor83:

I would first take Paisley to the vet for a full work up to make sure nothing medically is going on with her.  Dogs show sickness and pain in different ways and maybe her aggression is a symptom of something bigger.

I would just keep them separated in different rooms during feeding time for now just to keep both of them safe and slowly reintroduce group feeding.  If it's a power struggle between them they will hopefully just work it out but a sudden change in behavior may be something else entirely.

Sorry you are going through this   I have a doberman and a dane and I can't imagine them starting to fight, it would break my heart to have to keep them separate.

 

You have a Dobe???  Ahhh! I had my boy, Spencer, for 9 years but had to be put down last Monday because of congestive heart failure.  Broke my heart...probably the reason I haven't gotten pregnant yet...too much time worrying about him!  Have fun with your Dobe and enjoy every second you have with him! 

brookelynpaisley

arineve:

Are they both males? females? one of each?  I had (up until recently) 4 dogs total...2 of each.  One girl would get nasty about her bowl and the boys would fight out of nowhere.  My suggestion is to put them in separate areas to eat.  I know its a pain the ass but it eliminates the glaring over at the other one.  Also, after a fight do not introduce them so quickly.  After a huge male on male blow out we would keep them separated for a month.  

 Also, crate the aggressor immediately. If the dog keeps acting up you may want to feed in that crate.  Dogs are funny in that way...you never know whats sets them off unless it is obvious.

 Hope that helps!

Arin 

They're both girls. I have no idea how we'd keep them separated for a whole month from each other. I'm totally fine with feeding them in separate rooms, and I'll have to watch Clover on the sniffing Paisley's feeding area.

KitchenElf

I think you've had some great advice already - especially around feeding them separately.  It may be worth observing the two dogs outside of food times to see if there is any additional aggression.  This might help narrow the problem.

I really hope you find an easy answer to what's going on with Paisley and Clover.  Sending you lots of good wishes and doggie cuddles.  I hope it all works out!

bostonbluejay

My dog trainer said two females together tends to be the toughest combination because, as a rule, females tend to be more agressive toward each other than males. (This would not include in tact males). I agree about the feeding in separate rooms for now. I would maybe look for some information online about keeping a two female puppy household peaceful. I'm assuming both of them are spayed right?

Ellis31

My parents have two dogs and they always feed them in separate rooms because one eats way faster then the other. That should eliminate your problem and take away any possibility of a bad reaction from one of them. I hope Clover's ear is ok

brookelynpaisley

bostonbluejay:

My dog trainer said two females together tends to be the toughest combination because, as a rule, females tend to be more agressive toward each other than males. (This would not include in tact males). I agree about the feeding in separate rooms for now. I would maybe look for some information online about keeping a two female puppy household peaceful. I'm assuming both of them are spayed right?

Yes, they are both spayed. DH agrees with me that maybe a trip to the vet with P is in order just to find out if something else is going on. Like I said, we've never had issues, they've always got along so well. This came out of nowhere.

arineve

brookelynpaisley:

arineve:

Are they both males? females? one of each?  I had (up until recently) 4 dogs total...2 of each.  One girl would get nasty about her bowl and the boys would fight out of nowhere.  My suggestion is to put them in separate areas to eat.  I know its a pain the ass but it eliminates the glaring over at the other one.  Also, after a fight do not introduce them so quickly.  After a huge male on male blow out we would keep them separated for a month.  

 Also, crate the aggressor immediately. If the dog keeps acting up you may want to feed in that crate.  Dogs are funny in that way...you never know whats sets them off unless it is obvious.

 Hope that helps!

Arin 

They're both girls. I have no idea how we'd keep them separated for a whole month from each other. I'm totally fine with feeding them in separate rooms, and I'll have to watch Clover on the sniffing Paisley's feeding area.

Yeah keeping them separated for a month was really tough but we have a big house and the ability to do so.  You may want to have her checked out like someone said.  People always think it's the males that always have problems but people forget the golden dog rule: "Males are aggressive to dominate, females are aggressive to kill."  It could be a sign that she isn't feeling well.  Random aggression like that can mean something minor like jealousy all the way to something serious (don't mean to freak you out) like a brain tumor.  I've seen that happen in a lot of dogs mostly German Shepherds though.  

I wish you the best of luck and hope it's just her being a b**ch which is very possible.  Just keep them separated as much as you can and do your best to stay on top of them so your other baby doesn't get seriously hurt. 

Arin 

bostonbluejay

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective. And, you may want to talk to a dog trainer in your area as well before implementing new practices like this. Basically, you have to do what you are comfortable with, but you definitely want to nip this in the bud before it would get worse. Sorry you are having to deal with this BP!!

brookelynpaisley

arineve:

brookelynpaisley:

arineve:

Are they both males? females? one of each?  I had (up until recently) 4 dogs total...2 of each.  One girl would get nasty about her bowl and the boys would fight out of nowhere.  My suggestion is to put them in separate areas to eat.  I know its a pain the ass but it eliminates the glaring over at the other one.  Also, after a fight do not introduce them so quickly.  After a huge male on male blow out we would keep them separated for a month.  

 Also, crate the aggressor immediately. If the dog keeps acting up you may want to feed in that crate.  Dogs are funny in that way...you never know whats sets them off unless it is obvious.

 Hope that helps!

Arin 

They're both girls. I have no idea how we'd keep them separated for a whole month from each other. I'm totally fine with feeding them in separate rooms, and I'll have to watch Clover on the sniffing Paisley's feeding area.

Yeah keeping them separated for a month was really tough but we have a big house and the ability to do so.  You may want to have her checked out like someone said.  People always think it's the males that always have problems but people forget the golden dog rule: "Males are aggressive to dominate, females are aggressive to kill."  It could be a sign that she isn't feeling well.  Random aggression like that can mean something minor like jealousy all the way to something serious (don't mean to freak you out) like a brain tumor.  I've seen that happen in a lot of dogs mostly German Shepherds though.  

I wish you the best of luck and hope it's just her being a b**ch which is very possible.  Just keep them separated as much as you can and do your best to stay on top of them so your other baby doesn't get seriously hurt. 

Arin 

Don't worry. You're not freaking me out more than I already am. We recently had a friend have to put down her pit because she attacked another of their girls and caused some serious injury. We don't want it to get to that point.

 

Thank you all for your advice. I'm going to make a vet appointment and see if I can get a trainer to come out. We have one that we really like, but she's 45 minutes away so we'll have to see if she's willing to make the trip or if she'll recommend someone closer to us.

ninasc

bostonbluejay:

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective.  

I definitely would not do this! Dogs do not force other dogs to 'submit' to them and neither should you. Alpha dogs do not rule by force! Using Cesar Milan-esque methods will just make you more likely to get bitten. My dogs have gotten in a fight over food so they eat in separate rooms now and we have no problems. You can also feed them in their crates. The pets board on the nest is great, they might be able to give you more suggestions.

Actingdiva09

bostonbluejay:

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective. And, you may want to talk to a dog trainer in your area as well before implementing new practices like this. Basically, you have to do what you are comfortable with, but you definitely want to nip this in the bud before it would get worse. Sorry you are having to deal with this BP!!

 

DEFINITELY this. My lab mix knows I'm the boss. When I growl at him (yes, it sounds ridiculous, but it works), he lays down. He doesn't do that for DH b/c he's at home with me all day, so I'm at the top of the pack in his eyes, and DH is in the middle. I would definitely give them separate eating places (my dog has those tendencies that we found out ALMOST the hard way) so whenever we have visiting dogs we just move them to another room to eat and put up a baby gate. So if everything at the vet comes back normal (praying it does) then maybe you can start implementing more dominance over P and show her who's boss? GL and I hope you guys work it out quickly!!

brookelynpaisley

ninasc:

bostonbluejay:

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective.  

I definitely would not do this! Dogs do not force other dogs to 'submit' to them and neither should you. Alpha dogs do not rule by force! Using Cesar Milan-esque methods will just make you more likely to get bitten. My dogs have gotten in a fight over food so they eat in separate rooms now and we have no problems. You can also feed them in their crates. The pets board on the nest is great, they might be able to give you more suggestions.

Thanks. I posted the same post over there. The one response I got included among its advise instruction to not use "puggle." So funny. We don't like "preggo," and they don't like "dorkydoodle names." It seems pretty universal that a check-up and separate feedings are in order so we'll start there. It's so interesting to see the very different suggestions on how to react to the behavior. My coworker suggested spanking, which I absolutely do not condone.

Actingdiva09

ninasc:

bostonbluejay:

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective.  

I definitely would not do this! Dogs do not force other dogs to 'submit' to them and neither should you. Alpha dogs do not rule by force! Using Cesar Milan-esque methods will just make you more likely to get bitten. My dogs have gotten in a fight over food so they eat in separate rooms now and we have no problems. You can also feed them in their crates. The pets board on the nest is great, they might be able to give you more suggestions.

Actually, they do. That's exactly what P is doing. Hence the whole problem.

mdiblasi10

ninasc:

bostonbluejay:

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective.  

I definitely would not do this! Dogs do not force other dogs to 'submit' to them and neither should you. Alpha dogs do not rule by force! Using Cesar Milan-esque methods will just make you more likely to get bitten. My dogs have gotten in a fight over food so they eat in separate rooms now and we have no problems. You can also feed them in their crates. The pets board on the nest is great, they might be able to give you more suggestions.

Agreed x10000! Definitely do not try to be an "alpha" or follow Cesar's methods.

Females can be the nastiest with each other, unfortunately. I definitely agree with a vet visit to start. I highly recommend this book for resource guarding: https://www.amazon.com/Mine-Practical-Guide-Resource-Guarding/dp/0970562942 The behaviorist I learned from recommends it as well. Good luck!

ninasc

Actingdiva09:

ninasc:

bostonbluejay:

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective.  

I definitely would not do this! Dogs do not force other dogs to 'submit' to them and neither should you. Alpha dogs do not rule by force! Using Cesar Milan-esque methods will just make you more likely to get bitten. My dogs have gotten in a fight over food so they eat in separate rooms now and we have no problems. You can also feed them in their crates. The pets board on the nest is great, they might be able to give you more suggestions.

Actually, they do. That's exactly what P is doing. Hence the whole problem.

Have you actually read any books on dog behavior? Or spoken to a behaviorist? 

What P is doing is called resource guarding, it is fairly common for a dog to guard food or toys. There is a book called "Mine" by Patricia McConnell which might be helpful.

mdiblasi10

Actingdiva09:

ninasc:

bostonbluejay:

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective.  

I definitely would not do this! Dogs do not force other dogs to 'submit' to them and neither should you. Alpha dogs do not rule by force! Using Cesar Milan-esque methods will just make you more likely to get bitten. My dogs have gotten in a fight over food so they eat in separate rooms now and we have no problems. You can also feed them in their crates. The pets board on the nest is great, they might be able to give you more suggestions.

Actually, they do. That's exactly what P is doing. Hence the whole problem.

No, they really do not. Most people think that and it's easily misunderstood because we are humans trying to understand a language that is not our own. Dogs (and wolves) offer submissive behaviors to each other.

stellelinds25

I wish I had some good advice for you. I have a shih-tzu mix, which can be a "moody" breed. He has his moments where if he's laying and wants to be left alone, he'll get snarly if you try and pick him up. Is it possible P is trying to show her dominant side with C in a "that's MY food" type of thing? That's the only thing I can think of, but I don't know why something like that would be just starting now....

I hope they start getting along better soon!

SParkman80

That sounds frustrating. DH and I work with big dogs and have broken up plenty of dog fights. The last one got out of hand and DH ended up in the ER. Granted, these are huge dogs and puggles are usually smaller (I think?). I agree with PP to feed them in separate rooms. We had to do that with our bosses dogs and that did work. Also, this may sound mean, but we'd get a spray bottle with just water in it and when they growl at each other we'd spray them with water. They hate it and stop. Good luck to you and those pups!

bostonbluejay

ninasc:

Actingdiva09:

ninasc:

bostonbluejay:

BP, I think you may actually need to get Paisley in a submissive state when she behaves that way. You and your husband are also part of the "pack" and need to be the pack leaders. So, you may want to try getting Paisley on her back or side when she does this. Be firm, but don't hurt her. She doesn't get up until you say so. She is submissive when she is not making eye contact with you and is relaxed. It can be difficult at first, but after a time or two, they know to submit. My husband does this with Max when he acts up or when he gets into the toilet paper. Maybe he's watched too much Cesar Milan, but it seems to be effective.  

I definitely would not do this! Dogs do not force other dogs to 'submit' to them and neither should you. Alpha dogs do not rule by force! Using Cesar Milan-esque methods will just make you more likely to get bitten. My dogs have gotten in a fight over food so they eat in separate rooms now and we have no problems. You can also feed them in their crates. The pets board on the nest is great, they might be able to give you more suggestions.

Actually, they do. That's exactly what P is doing. Hence the whole problem.

Have you actually read any books on dog behavior? Or spoken to a behaviorist? 

What P is doing is called resource guarding, it is fairly common for a dog to guard food or toys. There is a book called "Mine" by Patricia McConnell which might be helpful.

Honestly, there many different techniques that are used to train dogs. MANY. Just like with parenting a child, while we may not agree on some methods that are used, it doesn't necessarily make them less effective or wrong. Cesar Milan has a proven track record of success with training dogs and has a lot of experience. I don't that should be discounted entirely. Many people don't agree with using training collars, but they can be very effective as well, especially when training a dog for hunting, etc. I think the only method I would disagree with no matter what, would be hitting/beating/kicking/spanking etc. In my opinion, that is never OK. My point is, not every dog responds to the exact same type of training or discipline. What works for one may not work for another and vice versa.

michaela080

I have a food defensive dog. We feed them in separate areas and we haven't needed to in a while, but pick up the dog bowls and put them on the counter after they are done.

byrne15

how old are they?

i'd suggest the crate rotations for the time being and slowly re-intro