Blended Families

blow up fight in front of kids (long)

Back story:  I have joint custody with primary conservertorship. BF has standard CO 1st, 3rd, 5th Thurs, Fri, Sat and return on Sun evening weekends. BF is a police officer and works overnight and has Tues/Wed nights off. He missed his 1st child support payment and still has not paid it 3 years later. In Texas you have to owe a specific amount AND be behind a certain length of time in order for them to persue the back child support. I don't qualify for help according to them.

Now: I still haven't received the $299 and I have brought it up in person when he is bringing the boys home several times. He always gives some excuse or tells me he will pay it, but never does. Both of my boys had doctor appointments recently and BF is supposed to pay 1/2 of co-pay. I pay at time of visit because I take them and Dr. office will not bill BF separately. My youngest had to go to the Dr. 3 times in the last week and will be having surgery next week. I called BF day of appointments to let him know what the doctor has said and what the co-pay is. For the surgery he has to pay his part by phone before the surgery. He said he would take care of it. I figure he'll have his mom pay with her credit card if he can't afford it right now because it's surgery.

I finally told him last week that I am no longer going to agree to our outside arrangement from CO to allow him to see boys only on his days off Tues/Wed and he will have to follow standard visitation from now on. He screams and cries and generally throws a temper tantrum because he isn't getting his way anymore. I explain that I am not going to make things so easy for him anymore because he does not offer me the same courtesy by honoring his repsonsibility and paying his child support. I am clear to say that he WILL still see them, only now it will follow the CO. Today he brought them back 1 1/2 hours late without calling when I let him take the boys to Tae Kwon Do belt test on his side of town (they go to class with him during the week). One thing leads to another and he is making a HUGE scene in front of the boys saying the I am taking the boys away from him and saying how because he doesn't have the weekends off and works overnight that he will never see his kids. I rationalize with him that he has the same amount of face time with them as he does now because the kids are in school during his days off and it is no less hours than when he is sleeping at home. I reminded him that they are old enough to play at home while he sleeps and he can have his fiance stay with the boys overnight while he works or hire a babysitter or have his mother watch them overnight. He is so upset because it is an inconvenience. He tells the boys that this is just because he owes me money that I am taking them away from him.

If you've read this far thank you. My question is, what do I do if he tries to pick them up from school this week now that I have no agreement to allow him to do so and CO says his visitation doesn't begin until Thursday evening? Do I just tell the school and hope they don't let them go with him? Do I call police if the kids aren't at the school when I go to pick them up? TIA for your help or advice!

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Re: blow up fight in front of kids (long)

  • In SC you have to give the school a coPy of the co if you want them to enforce it otherwise they have to let the child leave with a parent. I would change the child support to wage garnishment if he doesn't pay on his own?
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  • I realize that he owes you money and has for a long time, but its not enough money for the state to even pursue him, so does it make THAT much of a difference that you have now put your children in the middle of the arguement.  Outside of the court order or not, you have allowed for an alternate schedule to happen for some time now and are only changing it to try to get that money out of him.  He shouldn't have argued with you in front of the kids and shouldn't have told them that you were doing it just for money, but do you see how you are also in the wrong for initiating it. 

    My advice would be to think of your children first and what is best for them, the document every penny that he owes you and hasn't paid. 

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  • imagesdigieso:

    I realize that he owes you money and has for a long time, but its not enough money for the state to even pursue him, so does it make THAT much of a difference that you have now put your children in the middle of the arguement.  Outside of the court order or not, you have allowed for an alternate schedule to happen for some time now and are only changing it to try to get that money out of him.  He shouldn't have argued with you in front of the kids and shouldn't have told them that you were doing it just for money, but do you see how you are also in the wrong for initiating it. 

    My advice would be to think of your children first and what is best for them, the document every penny that he owes you and hasn't paid. 

    I totally agree with this.  While it's annoying that he hasn't paid $299 and half of some co-pays, it is not enough to go back on your arrangement that is outside of the CO.  My ex is a pilot - he finds out his schedule for the month on the 25th of the previous month.  If we kept to the CO, he would rarely get time with DD.  I realize you can follow the CO exactly, but is that really in the best interests of the kids?  Take the high road on this - your kids will thank you for making it possible to spend time with their father.

  • Provide the school with a copy of the CO and they should enforce it.  If for some reason they don't you can call the police and file a report.  They can't force him to give them back, but they can take the information.

    I agree with PPs that you shouldn't ever fight in front of the kids.  If he starts something in front of them you are well within your right to leave without finishing the conversation.

    However, I disagree with PPs that you should allow your outside arrangement to continue if he isn't holding up his side of the bargain.  I don't believe that it is your responsibility to make life easy for him when he isn't contributing the way he agreed to.  You would not be denying him visitation.  That, I believe, would be wrong.  But making life a little less convenient for him is not the end of the world.  Like you said, the kids would still see him and get the same amount of face time.

    If he wants to change the arrangement, let him take you to court, where you then can point out that X, Y, and Z haven't been paid.

    Mama of 2: one who grew in my womb, both who grow in my heart.
  • If the kids are not at the school when you go to pick them up then i would contact the police department...they will send an officer to speak with you so make sure you have your CO with you, once you show that officer that it is not the fathers time to have them they will find him and they will make him give the children back... the law has to enforce the CO agreement...i too tried to let my XH see the children whenever it was convient for him but after countless arguements and him being 3,000 behind in childsupport (and still refusing to pay) i finally had to step up and be the adult...the CO is in place to protect both parents and the children...Texas sucks by the way, that is where my CO agreement is (even though me and my children live in Illinois)...it took me months to get them to start garnishing his paychecks, and if they werent garnishing them then he still wouldnt be paying his CS

  • mom2onemom2one member
    You're going to withhold parenting time over $300? Seriously? Ugh.
    Stay at Home Mama to 3 Beautiful Children by the miracles of Birth & Adoption
  • imageFutureMrsWittig:

    Provide the school with a copy of the CO and they should enforce it.  If for some reason they don't you can call the police and file a report.  They can't force him to give them back, but they can take the information.

    I agree with PPs that you shouldn't ever fight in front of the kids.  If he starts something in front of them you are well within your right to leave without finishing the conversation.

    However, I disagree with PPs that you should allow your outside arrangement to continue if he isn't holding up his side of the bargain.  I don't believe that it is your responsibility to make life easy for him when he isn't contributing the way he agreed to.  You would not be denying him visitation.  That, I believe, would be wrong.  But making life a little less convenient for him is not the end of the world.  Like you said, the kids would still see him and get the same amount of face time.

    If he wants to change the arrangement, let him take you to court, where you then can point out that X, Y, and Z haven't been paid.

    Yes

    This.  And especially the bolded.

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  • wwnbwwwnbw member

    imagemom2one:
    You're going to withhold parenting time over $300? Seriously? Ugh.

    This.

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  • I don't know where you live, but in my state Child Support and Custody arrangements are mutually exclusive. Plus, I think that you are completely overreacting over $300 from over 3 years ago. You have set a precedent by allowing visitation off of what the custody order states and there is a very good chance that if you were to take him to court over this, the Judge would award him the additional time. I really think that you need to take the high road here and just let it go.
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  • imageo_so_in_love:
    imageFutureMrsWittig:

    Provide the school with a copy of the CO and they should enforce it.  If for some reason they don't you can call the police and file a report.  They can't force him to give them back, but they can take the information.

    I agree with PPs that you shouldn't ever fight in front of the kids.  If he starts something in front of them you are well within your right to leave without finishing the conversation.

    However, I disagree with PPs that you should allow your outside arrangement to continue if he isn't holding up his side of the bargain.  I don't believe that it is your responsibility to make life easy for him when he isn't contributing the way he agreed to.  You would not be denying him visitation.  That, I believe, would be wrong.  But making life a little less convenient for him is not the end of the world.  Like you said, the kids would still see him and get the same amount of face time.

    If he wants to change the arrangement, let him take you to court, where you then can point out that X, Y, and Z haven't been paid.

    Yes

    This.  And especially the bolded.

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  • imagemom2one:
    You're going to withhold parenting time over $300? Seriously? Ugh.

    I think she stated she was not going to withhold the kids from him, just make him abide by the CO as it was written.  She specifically said that the kids wouldn't lose face-to-face time with their dad. 

    And it wasn't just the $300, but multiple copays for medical appointments and procedures as well.  Those things can add up, especially when you're living on a tight budget to begin with.

    Just my interpretation.

    Mama of 2: one who grew in my womb, both who grow in my heart.
  • imageFutureMrsWittig:

    imagemom2one:
    You're going to withhold parenting time over $300? Seriously? Ugh.

    I think she stated she was not going to withhold the kids from him, just make him abide by the CO as it was written.  She specifically said that the kids wouldn't lose face-to-face time with their dad. 

    And it wasn't just the $300, but multiple copays for medical appointments and procedures as well.  Those things can add up, especially when you're living on a tight budget to begin with.

    Just my interpretation.

    This exactly. I'm not going to deny that it is under my skin that he choses to not pay the money he owes because it's not a significant enough amount for the state to help with and the only consequence is me nagging him about it...that is true. I have NEVER withheld the boys from seeing him in the past and don't plan to in the future. I explained to my boys after BF left the argument that their daddy is upset because we are now going to follow the RULES in our CO and not go through with the deal we had made because daddy wasn't doing his part of the deal and hadn't been for a long time but now mommy doesn't think it's fair for daddy to not do his part of the deal so we are only going to follow the RULES.

    BTW, BF called the house today and my oldest son (10yrs) answered the phone. His dad is crying and tells him to tell mommy that he is going to take me to court so he can spend time with him again since mommy is trying to take him away and if he has to his fiance will take care of them instead of me. My son came in and told me what his dad had said and I explained that I was sorry that daddy was bringing him into this, but even if we had a judge change the RULES about when we would have he and his brother live at each of our houses that either way he would be with mommy or daddy and we both love them very much and will take care of them. He said he understood and said he was just sad that daddy didn't GET that changing to follow the RULES will allow them to spend more days with him every other week even if it wasn't on his day off.

    It's so frustrating that a 10 and 8 year old can understand that even though it is a change it is NOT the end of the world and that they will still see their dad. This is not just about money but about the boys having their school schedules and homework routine disrupted mid-week because it was their dad's day off. Dad doesn't do homework with them. Lies about them reading for homework and signs their worksheets that they did the work even if they didn't. The kids know this is wrong and tell me he does this. He lets them stay up until 10 and 11 at night when the ball games end on school nights because he thinks that is spending quality time with them. They have to wake up at 5:30 the next morning to get ready and go to school because it is a commute from a different city. They have summer school this year because they are behind (still being promoted to next grade) and routine is still very important. Both boys are likely going to be diagnosed with learning disorders in the next few weeks and consistency and routine with school work will help. Dad is not able to do this in the past.

    I'm trying to keep my cool about everything. BF has threatened court action in the past and has NEVER followed through. He didn't even represent himself in our divorce or custody agreement but simply made agreement with me to include Thursday in his weekends every other week. I am not prepared financially to take him to court but will respond if necessary and have a plan to change visitation to only Friday-Sunday.

    Thanks for the responses on how to handle the school situation. I'm still very nervous about it and feel like the school may be intimidated because he shows up in police uniform to the school. We'll see how it goes...

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  • imageramzgurl:

    BTW, BF called the house today and my oldest son (10yrs) answered the phone. His dad is crying and tells him to tell mommy that he is going to take me to court so he can spend time with him again since mommy is trying to take him away and if he has to his fiance will take care of them instead of me. My son came in and told me what his dad had said and I explained that I was sorry that daddy was bringing him into this, but even if we had a judge change the RULES about when we would have he and his brother live at each of our houses that either way he would be with mommy or daddy and we both love them very much and will take care of them. He said he understood and said he was just sad that daddy didn't GET that changing to follow the RULES will allow them to spend more days with him every other week even if it wasn't on his day off.

    I'm pretty sure this falls under "parental alienation" since it sounds like he's trying to use the kids against you.  That is severly frowned upon in the courts.

    As far as him showing up at the school in his uniform, maybe if you give them a heads up that he might do this to intimidate them they will be prepared to still handle him in the proper, legal way and follow your court order.  Just because he is supposed to uphold the law doesn't mean he can change a court order.  Have you given the school a copy of the court order?

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  • Wow - there is so much wrong in this post and in some of the answers - I am shocked!

    First - how long has the Custody ordered been altered?  Do you know that the court will recognize a change if it has been occurring for a long enuogh period of time?

    You are completely in the wrong for changing the precedent for Custody and he is wrong for involving the children - but lets be fair - you are using your children as pawns to collect $300.00 - that is so Motherly of you!!

    As far as the school and the police - the school will not stop a parent from taking a child unless there is a restraining order and the police will not remove children from a parent - according to most police department s- it is not their job to interpret a CO - they will take a report and recommend you go to court!

    But - the damage you can do to the children by involving the police is permanent - so remember that before you do anything.  My SS still has nightmares from the time his Mother called the police on his Father!

    And - since you were married to a cop - you know that if he is working overnights then having the children during that time is not the same as the time he has during his regular days off!  You can try to convince yourself or others that you are being fair  - but you are not.  Working graveyard shift is extremely damaging to a person and the days they are working those shifts - most people can't function properly - so his time with his children would change drastically.  He couldn't tuck them in at night - he might not be there when they wake in the morning- and he very well may be sleeping part of the time they are in the house.

    To all of the posters that think OP is in the right - do you think it would be okay if a BF just randomly changed an agreement for money outside of the court order??  If there is an agreement - it is an agreement!

    I think you are a bully!

  • imageBanana44:

    Wow - there is so much wrong in this post and in some of the answers - I am shocked!

    First - how long has the Custody ordered been altered?  Do you know that the court will recognize a change if it has been occurring for a long enuogh period of time?

    You are completely in the wrong for changing the precedent for Custody and he is wrong for involving the children - but lets be fair - you are using your children as pawns to collect $300.00 - that is so Motherly of you!!

    As far as the school and the police - the school will not stop a parent from taking a child unless there is a restraining order and the police will not remove children from a parent - according to most police department s- it is not their job to interpret a CO - they will take a report and recommend you go to court!

    But - the damage you can do to the children by involving the police is permanent - so remember that before you do anything.  My SS still has nightmares from the time his Mother called the police on his Father!

    And - since you were married to a cop - you know that if he is working overnights then having the children during that time is not the same as the time he has during his regular days off!  You can try to convince yourself or others that you are being fair  - but you are not.  Working graveyard shift is extremely damaging to a person and the days they are working those shifts - most people can't function properly - so his time with his children would change drastically.  He couldn't tuck them in at night - he might not be there when they wake in the morning- and he very well may be sleeping part of the time they are in the house.

    To all of the posters that think OP is in the right - do you think it would be okay if a BF just randomly changed an agreement for money outside of the court order??  If there is an agreement - it is an agreement!

    I think you are a bully!

    I may sound like a bully, but since when is it ok for a BF to not follow his end of the deal and reap all of the benefits for the sake of his work schedule?

    This isn't JUST about the money as I've mentioned in additional posts in this thread. The kids have difficulty adjusting to interruptions to school schedule and homework routines, are going to have to attend summer school and have learning difficulty. He has been given several opportunities over the last 3 years to do better at helping the boys with their schoolwork and to get them to bed on time.

    I've always backed down because I wanted to avoid this situation for the reason you pointed out exactly. I DON'T WANT TO BE LABLED A BULLY! I've tried doing it the other way and only was concerned with my kids spending as much time as they could with their dad but the fact is that dad is not doing what he should to help the kids with schoolwork or routine and ON TOP of that is not fulfilling his financial obligations completely. Yeah, he pays his child support, but only because it is withheld from his paycheck. He ONLY spends his weekly days off with them and refuses them on holiday breaks, summer, spring breaks, birthdays, father's day even - because it is not on his day off. He doesn't even spend his waking hours with them on those days. I am taking every precaution to keep my kids healthy and happy and while it is a change to not see their dad on his days off he most certainly will still be able to tuck them in before he goes to work and wake them up when his shift is over.

    I feel like now I am not be doing a good job as a mother to my kids if I don't do my best to provide consistancy in their lives so that they can succeed in school and have confidence in themselves because they do well in school. I'm tired of them being made to feel slow and even told by him "only stupid kids or failures have to go to summer school".

    I realize you didn't have ALL the details but I want to make it clear that I consider my children's wellbeing much more than he ever has and he ONLY wants them on his days off because of convenience to himself and not in the best interests of our children. My 1st mistake may have been to have an arrangement outside of our court order, but at the time I didn't realize it would cause this much of a problem for the kids and really thought he would do better to support THEM and THEIR learning and ROUTINE when they were with him instead of only focusing on how them being around him made him feel.

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  • sprky79sprky79 member
    imageramzgurl:

     I reminded him that they are old enough to play at home while he sleeps and he can have his fiance stay with the boys overnight while he works or hire a babysitter or have his mother watch them overnight. He is so upset because it is an inconvenience. He tells the boys that this is just because he owes me money that I am taking them away from him.

    If you've read this far thank you. My question is, what do I do if he tries to pick them up from school this week now that I have no agreement to allow him to do so and CO says his visitation doesn't begin until Thursday evening? Do I just tell the school and hope they don't let them go with him? Do I call police if the kids aren't at the school when I go to pick them up? TIA for your help or advice!

    Sounds to me like he's right.  You sound like you are pissed about money and are taking it out on the visitation schedule.  Stop sucking and stick to what has been working for both of you, visitation-wise, and deal with the money separately.

    Seriously, people. If your faith in humanity is destroyed because your parents told you there was a Santa Claus and as it turns out there is no Santa Claus, you are an ignorant, hypersensitive cry baby with absolutely zero perspective. - UnderwaterRhymes
  • sprky79sprky79 member
    And don't kid yourself - if your ex goes into court and says, "Judge, we've been doing it this way for an extended period of time, she decided to change it all because I owe her $300.00.  I would just like the order to reflect how this has been working for the last substantial period of time..."  He's likely to get it, and you will look like a fool.
    Seriously, people. If your faith in humanity is destroyed because your parents told you there was a Santa Claus and as it turns out there is no Santa Claus, you are an ignorant, hypersensitive cry baby with absolutely zero perspective. - UnderwaterRhymes
  • imagesprky79:
    And don't kid yourself - if your ex goes into court and says, "Judge, we've been doing it this way for an extended period of time, she decided to change it all because I owe her $300.00.  I would just like the order to reflect how this has been working for the last substantial period of time..."  He's likely to get it, and you will look like a fool.

    I feel I am prepared to show that I provide a more stable home and consistant environment during the school week. Honestly, you sound just like him and making it JUST about the money and not paying much attention to how his work schedule disrupts the children and that this has now become OBVIOUS because they are requiring summer school and have been telling me themselves that he doesn't make them do homework and lies about their assignments completed so that mommy and teacher will think they did it and also saying in front of me "only stupid kids have to go to summer school". I wonder if he says that in front of me what he says when I'm not there? If seeing his kids is TRULY that important to him he would take better care when he has had them in the past AND would take all opportunities to be with them and not just when it is MOST convenient to himself.

    Also, I'm prepared, but will be surprised if he does actually take this to court. He in the past has only caused a scene and thrown tantrums to get his way and NEVER even when we divorced has he paid to represent his rights or wants as a parent. So, yeah, I'm prepared to justify why I want to go back to the standard visitation but I don't think he'll bring suit. I think it will be more a situation of if he takes them when he doesn't have standard visitation without my consent that I will have to persue contempt charges.

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  • imageBanana44:

    Wow - there is so much wrong in this post and in some of the answers - I am shocked!

    First - how long has the Custody ordered been altered?  Do you know that the court will recognize a change if it has been occurring for a long enuogh period of time?

    You are completely in the wrong for changing the precedent for Custody and he is wrong for involving the children - but lets be fair - you are using your children as pawns to collect $300.00 - that is so Motherly of you!!

    As far as the school and the police - the school will not stop a parent from taking a child unless there is a restraining order and the police will not remove children from a parent - according to most police department s- it is not their job to interpret a CO - they will take a report and recommend you go to court!

    But - the damage you can do to the children by involving the police is permanent - so remember that before you do anything.  My SS still has nightmares from the time his Mother called the police on his Father!

    And - since you were married to a cop - you know that if he is working overnights then having the children during that time is not the same as the time he has during his regular days off!  You can try to convince yourself or others that you are being fair  - but you are not.  Working graveyard shift is extremely damaging to a person and the days they are working those shifts - most people can't function properly - so his time with his children would change drastically.  He couldn't tuck them in at night - he might not be there when they wake in the morning- and he very well may be sleeping part of the time they are in the house.

    To all of the posters that think OP is in the right - do you think it would be okay if a BF just randomly changed an agreement for money outside of the court order??  If there is an agreement - it is an agreement!

    I think you are a bully!

    This exactly.  I think it is disgusting how both of you are putting your children right in the middle of this situation. 

  • sprky79sprky79 member
    Let me phrase it this way.  The homework issue did not come up until you got all sorts of static about being a PITA over $300. This makes me think the homework thing is not really your issue here.  If he takes you to court, he's likely to ask the judge to modify his schedule to exactly what you had been agreeing to for months, and I'll bet you one meeelion bump dollars he will get it, along with a meaningless lecture about making sure the kids do their homework.  You are not coming across sympathetic here, so if this is how you handle things should it go to court I am not optimistic for you.
    Seriously, people. If your faith in humanity is destroyed because your parents told you there was a Santa Claus and as it turns out there is no Santa Claus, you are an ignorant, hypersensitive cry baby with absolutely zero perspective. - UnderwaterRhymes
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