my (somewhat darwinian) thoughts on today's education system

happ17

let me preface this by saying I'm kind of speaking from experience. I grew up with parents who were involved in that they made sure I went to school and did my homework, but really weren't home because they worked typical immigrant 16-hour days and couldn't help all that much because they spoke and read very little English (especially when I was younger). I didn't attend the best school districts. And we were poor.

My elementary school was ok, but my junior high school was in one of the worst parts of town. I remember being on lockdown because the gangs from competing projects nearby (Hammel and OV, if I remember correctly) were warring and officials were afraid we'd be caught in the crossfire outside. We had high pregnancy rates (yes, even in jr high), low graduation rates, high teacher turnover--you name it. But we also had a special program for high achievers. In fact, all the public schools I know of had this--I guess it's like the "honors" program for NYC public schools. Anyone who had the wherewithal and the grades could take advantage of it.

Luckily, in NYC, you can pretty much attend any public school you want, if you get in. My local high school was atrocious, but I was able to get into a specialized high school for "smart" kids. It was in a different borough, so I had to take 3 different city buses to get to school if I didn't get a ride. After high school, I was able to get a kick-ass merit scholarship to a private college and graduated magna *** laude--as a product of the NYC public education system.

That being said, I think there's a lot wrong with our school systems. I do agree that not everyone should be a rocket scientist. Which is why I think we need to bring back occupational schools. My FIL, for instance, went to mechanic school and made a very nice living and pension working for the airlines as an airplane mechanic. Why did we ever get rid of these schools? Is learning a trade skill that useless? These days we teach all these kids that their ultimate goal should be a college degree and a job in a cubicle somewhere. Meanwhile, we have a shortage of HVAC techs and mechanics, who, incidentally, can make 6-figure salaries.

I think teacher unions are another problem. Yes, a union is a great tool for workers to protect themselves from abuse, but sometimes they are also abused. In NY, we have a rampant problem of tenured teachers being on payrolls when they really shouldn't be. I've had some of these teachers--that come to class and really are just waiting for the day to end so they can go home. We have teachers sitting around in rubber rooms, collecting full salaries for doing crossword puzzles when they really should be fired. We have perfectly eager, smart young teachers being assigned to the worst schools, with little administrative support, putting their lives in danger, only to be disillusioned from teaching altogether (happened to a lot of my friends). Jack Welch had a point when he said the key to fixing the nation's school system is dismantling the teachers' unions. Unions are a great concept if they weren't abused so much.

You also have parents that just don't care because they expect the schools to solve everything. You'd be surprised at how many people I know who don't think they should push their kids to learn because that's what school's for. But then you have teachers and school systems that don't care, either. You can throw all the money you want at something, but until you get the support behind it, and give kids options, these kids aren't going to care for themselves.

What do we encourage in schools these days? Get As on tests or trophies in sports. Well, if you're not good at either, what do you do?

happ17

ok that was a lot of ranting, whoops. I find it funny that they censored "c u m" though.

AnnapolisLari

I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I am a former teacher.

My grandmother was a physician in Russia, and had to completely requalify at Columbia when she emigrated to the US. Her husband was also an airline mechanic for Grumman. He had 3 children who have 5 master's degrees and 3 doctorates between them. My uncle went to RPI on a Grumman scholarship, and got his PhD from Yale. They could never have done it if they didn't have a hardworking mechanic as a dad.

I believe that No Child Left Behind is the worst thing that has ever happened to the US schools. The emphasis on passing tests makes a mockery of the whole concept of education and becoming a well-rounded person. As you say, not everyone is cut out for college. Trade schools are critical, and I absolutely think that they need to reinstate more of the vocational education programs.

And some kids just flat out want to be left behind. Sad, but it's the truth. They are completely unmotivated, and nothing the teachers do will change that. The kids are marking time until they can legally drop out.

ridesbuttons

Our business relies heavily on skilled tradespeople.  Harder and harder to find quality/qualified people to fill holes.  These folks make higher than average wages and can write their own ticket, if they are motivated.

For too long trades were looked down on, like you were settling or 'dumb' or something.  I would actively encourage my kids to pursue a trade if they showed interest.  The possibilities are endless.

Halo79RN

TOTALLY AGREE!  and my husband is a college professor.  he sees a number of kids who are not prepared for college and who probably should go the vo-tech route.  There's a ton of value in tech training.  another fault....  I think the education system started a downward spiral with tossing the bluebooks and introducing the scantron.  kids use calculators for basic algebra classes, basic mathematics....  they don't write in history class or english class.... they fill in a dot.  kids don't know how to write... to complete a thought.  I've found unions to be a waste ... I'm in a nursing union in nyc and have no contribution to my retirement at this point... my unit lacks the updated equipment it needs... the union doesn't seem to fight for our staffing needs... what are we paying them for.  Then you have old nurses who don't give a rats' ass and who need to go, but won't b/c they make too much money.  raises aren't based on performance at all.  I think it should be.  unions are just as bad as big biz.  they are a big biz.  some corporate who knows nothing about what I do, takes my dues and sits back and doesn't get me what I want.  it's a waste... but if I want a job... if I want my job, I have to pay the dues.  b.s. 

justEK

I agree with you.

Are any of you following what Michelle Rhee is trying to do with our education system? I'm curious what some of you think about her plan.

JOEBunny

I agree with you, especially about the trade training and making education meaningful for the types of jobs that a child will likely be able to get rather than trying to get everyone to want to go to college.

The teachers unions blow my mind, they are not as strong here, but they still have serious issues.  I read that NYC had 55,000 teachers and only fired 10 in a recent year.  It cost $250,000 to fire a teacher.  That is ridiculous.  I worked for a company with 40,000 employees in one area.  They fired at least 1% of the workforce each year for inappropriate infractions, everything from discrimination to not showing up to stealing.  I just can't believe that teachers are exempt from the types of ill behavior that would warrant firing.

The average teachers retirement here is estimated at being worth $2.5M.  I am sure that people private business would consider that quite a good retirement. It is not sustainable, but it is where a lot of the education funds end up.  

FloF9

Coming from NYC myself I completely agree.  Especially about the vocational school.  I think there are so many kids out there that would benefit from them.

ccm1203

Very well said.  Especially about vocational schools. DH is a union mason/tilesetter (4th generation) and whenever DS mentions wanting to do that when he grows up DH says he needs to go to college.  Let the kid decide what he wants to do! 

Rebekah1021

I agree. I am one of those people who did just okay at school, but I went to work right after school and managed to work my way up the ladder before getting a degree. I did put myself through school to get a degree. 

My brother is a plumber and is super successful. I really think there need to be more vocational schools. 

veloelle

Preach.it. Effing preach it!! My DH's first trade is an aircraft mechanic; he'd still work for an airline if 9/11 hadn't happened. He took shop in HS. A few years ago he tried to donate his old car to the HS shop class, and it had Bren cut. it really bothered DH. This is at one of the worst HS in the area, poor, gangs, etc. These kids need trade skills!! DH's brother is a car mechanic and makes a damn good living. He has zero debt, paid off house, cars, motorcylce, ATV's, etc. All in a moderately HCOL area.

Yodajo

I agree with every point you made.  100%!

mika06

In my area there are choices for High Schools we have a School of Arts and Sciences, A Trade school or the child has the choice to go to their regular high school. Most of the regular schools focus more on sports then the education of the students.

I think the issue is that with funding cutting programs such as art, languages, trades from the lower schools Elementry and Middle/Junior schools children are not getting a chance to explore what they may like to do as an alternative path to "regular" school.

Our children are not receiving the chances to compete in this world, whether that  is because of bad schools, bad teachers or just being written off. I think that parents, teachers and the community needs to band together to ensure schools are doing right by the children in their districts. But as OP said there are a lot of people that just don't care.

I have met a lot of parents that send their child to school and don't know that their child didn't do their homework or don't know how to read well till the end of the year. We have 2 parent teacher conferences and 3 report card issuings. I have people who decided hey i'm going to pull my child from the regular school and send them to charter school and then they don't speak up when the child hasn't had vocabulary all year or the teacher send vocabulary words home that are misspelled. I really believe it takes a village and in this country the village is mostly all out to lunch.

wifeandmama

TOTALLY agree!  Our district has a tech school with all sorts of trades - from welding to auto mechanics to baking to cosmetology.  The kids get internships in high school, which often leads right into a career.  I think it's absolutely wonderful.  Everyone is not college material and skilled laborers are hard to find.  If my children expressed interested in a trade, I'd happily support their decision!

angelproberts

AnnapolisLari:

I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I am a former teacher.

My grandmother was a physician in Russia, and had to completely requalify at Columbia when she emigrated to the US. Her husband was also an airline mechanic for Grumman. He had 3 children who have 5 master's degrees and 3 doctorates between them. My uncle went to RPI on a Grumman scholarship, and got his PhD from Yale. They could never have done it if they didn't have a hardworking mechanic as a dad.

I believe that No Child Left Behind is the worst thing that has ever happened to the US schools. The emphasis on passing tests makes a mockery of the whole concept of education and becoming a well-rounded person. As you say, not everyone is cut out for college. Trade schools are critical, and I absolutely think that they need to reinstate more of the vocational education programs.

And some kids just flat out want to be left behind. Sad, but it's the truth. They are completely unmotivated, and nothing the teachers do will change that. The kids are marking time until they can legally drop out.

Hi Ladies- I'm a new poster that watches the board a lot and posts every now and then but education is my passion so I had to get in on this one. 

I agree with most of what you said but the part about the kids want to be left behind I kind of don't agree with. I think that those kids that you are talking about don't value education and it's not their fault it's the parents' fault. Parents don't have to know the curriculum or how to do it for that matter as long as they stress the importance of education. Support of the teachers and the schools would go a long way in the mind frame of the the kids you're talking about.

I am also a teacher that is on a break but I fully intend to go back. I am/was a Special Education teacher and I could not agree with you more about No Child Left Behind. I was a very frustrated teacher because of the disservice I was doing for my students. I had students that could function in society if they had those tradeskills. I totally hate the direction that education has gone. Not everyone wants to go to college or can afford to go to college but a trade is something that they would be able to thrive in if given the opportunity. It really saddens and angers me that there are so many kids that are coming out of schools with the NCLB laws that are not prepared for life and that have been essentially left behind.

AnnapolisLari

angelproberts:

I agree with most of what you said but the part about the kids want to be left behind I kind of don't agree with. I think that those kids that you are talking about don't value education and it's not their fault it's the parents' fault. Parents don't have to know the curriculum or how to do it for that matter as long as they stress the importance of education. Support of the teachers and the schools would go a long way in the mind frame of the the kids you're talking about.

Okey-dokey. You know exactly how much I supported my students. You know exactly what caliber of people I worked with. Sure. I taught remedial reading in middle and high schools. My principal in the high school referred to my population as 'the lowest of the low'. I had students in the 8th grade reading on a sub-first-grade level.

I quit because I couldn't do it any more. Not the cheerleading, not the encouraging, not the home visits in places that you couldn't even imagine living, not the beating my head against the damned wall because they just wouldn't get on the education bandwagon.

Your implying that my coworkers and I did not support our kids is just as bad as the useless parents who are leaving everything to the schools. With the demands that are placed on teachers because of NCLB, people who were really devoted to education and their students are burning out and leaving the profession. Like me. Like many of my colleagues.

That crack really pissed me off.

 

ccm1203

AnnapolisLari:

angelproberts:

I agree with most of what you said but the part about the kids want to be left behind I kind of don't agree with. I think that those kids that you are talking about don't value education and it's not their fault it's the parents' fault. Parents don't have to know the curriculum or how to do it for that matter as long as they stress the importance of education. Support of the teachers and the schools would go a long way in the mind frame of the the kids you're talking about.

Okey-dokey. You know exactly how much I supported my students. You know exactly what caliber of people I worked with. Sure. I taught remedial reading in middle and high schools. My principal in the high school referred to my population as 'the lowest of the low'. I had students in the 8th grade reading on a sub-first-grade level.

I quit because I couldn't do it any more. Not the cheerleading, not the encouraging, not the home visits in places that you couldn't even imagine living, not the beating my head against the damned wall because they just wouldn't get on the education bandwagon.

Your implying that my coworkers and I did not support our kids is just as bad as the useless parents who are leaving everything to the schools. With the demands that are placed on teachers because of NCLB, people who were really devoted to education and their students are burning out and leaving the profession. Like me. Like many of my colleagues.

That crack really pissed me off.

 

  Um Lari, I think you read her response wrong.  She said it's the parents fault.