Blended Families

kids and guns

Things have been generally good on the home front. No big issues since we went to court last spring. We've all been getting along pretty well, save for super douche (aka stepdad), but that will forever be the big elephant in the corner.

That all came to a screetching hault on black Friday. *sigh*

BM's mom started texting me around 1 asking me if I had seen BM's facebook updates. I answer no, I hadn't been on FB yet for the day I had been busy shopping and decorating and what not. She proceeded to tell me that BM got SS a 22 rifle for Christmas.

Indifferent

Ok, SS is 4. FOUR YEARS OLD. I believe in the right to bare arms, to own guns and keep them in your own home. I feel it is good to educate your children on the proper usage of guns and to not touch them unless a parent is around (and obviously the safe keeping of guns far from children's knowledge or reach). BUT the fact that SS is FOUR just boggles my mind. I could see him getting a youth rifle at 10 or 12, especially if any of our families hunted (which no one does. Not one person), but not at 4! I forwarded the texts to DH, I didn't want to get in the middle of anything. DH called his lawyer, and while in our state there are no laws as to how old a child must be to operate a gun or rifle, our lawyer said that 4 is definitely an inappropriate age, and that he could draw up child endangerment papers if he wanted. DH told him to hold off for now and let him see if he could talk to BM about it, he just wanted to see what the law was, and if he could reason with BM about it.

DH and BM talked through text. He told her he was concerned with what she got SS for Christmas, and stated he did not think he was old enough to operate and handle a rifle, even with proper parental supervision. She told him to kick rocks, and that she can do wahtever she wants with her child during her time with him. That pissed DH off bc he was really trying to be reasonable with her and suggest she wait until he was older and she pretty much just said eff off. So he told her if he touched the gun she would be served with child endangerment papers from his lawyer.

She *says* that the gun will be put away till he is old enough to have it. Do I believe her? Not really. BM is the kind of person that once she is told she can't do something, she does it anyway, just to be spitefull. Even if it is something she doesn't really want to do it, she is just that spitefull.

SS on Saturday night at dinner brought up 'when superdouche takes me to the desert he gave me his gun to shoot'. DH's face was a color I don't think I've ever seen before. DH told SS not to touch guns, that when he is older he will make sure he takes classes if he wants, but right now he is not big enough yet. SS said 'well super douche said he is the boss and I listen to him, not you'. That went over well with DH.

In the end, DH pretty much had drilled into SS he is not to touch a gun, he is to put his hands behind his back and say no.

super douche picked SS up yesterday. SS answered the door and before he even said helo he looked at him and said 'so um, my dad is the boss. Not you. And he said I can't touch a gun'.

Priceless

superdouche just stood there and said 'yea okay do what your dad says', and they left.

I know this isn't the last of it. I'm just so confused as to why any parent would hand their 4 year old a rifle or gun and say 'ok here you go'. Maybe it's the regional variences like what someone posted about a week or so ago. Someone else posted about their bd or bm buying a aarow or something? If we lived out in Kentucky and were avid hunters, maybe this is something that would be appropriate. (I don't think so but I don't live in a rural area, maybe it's the norm). No one hunters in our family. No one. There is no reason to have a rifle. He is 4 for crying out loud! Is DH wrong in insisting he wait until he is older to have a gun? Is BM right and we're the jerks? I just feel like a train or nerf guns are more age appropriate for him right now.

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Re: kids and guns

  • SS is also 4, and we barely let him have a $5 nerf gun lol No way in heck we'd let him anywhere near a real gun!

    And I'm calling BS on her saying she's putting it back for later. What 4 year old wants a Christmas present they can't touch for 6 + years? If it's for later, she would just buy it later.

    I don't know what you'd have to prove legally, or what you could even do exactly, but I'd be back with the lawyer asap on this one. Not to be overly dramatic, but this COULD be a case of life or death.

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  • First, I do not believe that arrows are appropriate for kids w/out supervision - PERIOD. 

    Second, my SS had an air soft gun at the age of 13 and I was totally fine with it...given that the ONE time he was caught with out safety equipment the gun was taken away for 2 weeks (from the time he was caught, which was Sunday night at 6pm so he lost 2 full weekends).   He never went without again.

    Third, no child at the age of 4 should touch a gun.  They do not have the capability to understand exactly how to use the things. 

    If I were you, I would beg DH to file a motion of child endangerment.

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  • Ok here's my two cents. You and DH are absolutely in the right here. My son is 11, and it wasn't until 2 months ago that my boyfriend (an avid hunter) took him to a shooting range in his hometown, to teach him proper gun safety and how to shoot. We waited this long, because even at 11, you don't quite fully grasp certain things about proper gun handling, and we felt that he was finally able to accept very limited responsibility when it comes to that. Even so, when he asked for an air soft gun for Xmas, we told him it was unlikely that he'd get one this year. (Too dangerous)

    We have Nerf guns in our house for my son and my boyfriend's sons (who are 6 and 4) to play with, but even then, we always make sure they never point it at their faces, and even with them being 'fake' guns, we teach them proper guns use, because you see all the time on the news, kids 'playing' with real guns like they would a fake gun, and someone gets hurt or killed.

    Now, this is just us being overly cautious. To each their own, but I feel that when it comes to guns, no matter what age you are, accidents happen, and you can never be too careful. For all you guys know, the BM and her SO could have absolutely no clue what they are doing when it comes to guns, and you and DH are only being cautious and concerned, as you have every right to be. And as for a 4-year old having their own gun? Personally, I don't care if a child came out of the womb and was handed their first BB gun to practice with....no matter how much you know about guns, that age is way too young to accept the responisiblity that comes with having a gun of your own, or even to be shooting someone else's.

     

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  • imagekaratechrissy:

    SS on Saturday night at dinner brought up 'when superdouche takes me to the desert he gave me his gun to shoot'. DH's face was a color I don't think I've ever seen before. DH told SS not to touch guns, that when he is older he will make sure he takes classes if he wants, but right now he is not big enough yet. SS said 'well super douche said he is the boss and I listen to him, not you'. That went over well with DH.

    Maybe it's my pregnant hormones kicking in, but I'd have had a hard time not going off on 'superdouche'(as you put it, lol) myself. My son's SM essentially said something similar in regards to me, to which I not-so-kindly reminded her exactly who 'mama bear' really was. Sounds like your DH handled it better than I would have, and hopefully your SS got the message, which it sounds like he did. :)

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  • I would not hesitate to file those endangerment papers. I can't believe superdouche let him hold/fire a gun in the past. That coupled with the FB posts lead me to believe they plan on allowing ss to play with it.
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  • Ditto PP's. A 4 year old is WAY too young to own or even touch a gun. I took a gun class as an adult a few years ago and, after taking the class, decided that owning a gun was a bigger responsibility than I wanted to take on. A child is absolutely too young to fully understand the dangers of guns and the consequences of their misuse.

    By the way karatechrissy, what your SS said to "superdouche" was hilarious! I bet the look on his face when he heard that was priceless too!

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  • Child endangerment.  Superdouche is dangerous and it's scary to think he has access to guns.  Does your lawyer know about his threats?
    Stay at home mom to a house of boys: two amazing stepsons, 12 and 9, and our 4 year old.
  • Thank you everyone. I honestly don't know what is going on in both of their minds. Why they think a 4 year old is capable of shooting a rifle (even if it is a 'youth' rifle as BM pointed out multiple times). He is a smart kid (hell well all think our kids are smart) but he is not anywhere near able to operate a gun.

    DH is going to call his lawyer when he is out of work. He was going to go on her word that she was 'putting it away' but I just texted him after reading all your replies. Told him I was very concerned and that it's highly unlikely that she will 'put it away' for 6 years plus. He said that if he saw a return receipt that would be good enough for him. What do you all think? Would that be sufficient enough? I would think so, but there is another kicker to the story. Super douche's 'family' (I say family in """ because they aren't related, he just went to live with them when he was 16 because he didn't like his adoptive parents) owns a gun store. That is where they bought the rifle. (I don't know this for fact, but I can't see them buying a gun anywhere else when his family owns a gun store, and BM has purchased her hand gun from there recently). So, I know they could do a fake return I'm sure. I just don't know what to do.

    imageJ&A2008:
    Child endangerment.  Superdouche is dangerous and it's scary to think he has access to guns.  Does your lawyer know about his threats?

    Our lawyer knows some of what went on when we went to court this past spring about him trying to undermine DH. (SS would come home telling us we werent his family, the dogs weren't his, he couldn't be friends with kids at karate etc. because super douche said so). We didn't find out about suicide threats until after all the court stuff was done when BM let on that they were having problems and were divorcing. So our lawyer doesn't know about that, well didn't know until my H called him Friday to let him know all this and ask advice.

    Super douche was gonig to be a police officer. He went through the academy last year, and almost graduated, but a few weeks prior to graduation he told some racist jokes, and was kicked off. Now BM is going out for the academy. She starts the process mid December. Super douche can't go out for it because he messed up his leg and it's still healing from major surgery. He is upset she is doing it and he can't. He cries to her how it isn't fair etc etc... (She tells us all of this on her own accord and makes fun of him for crying abou it :-/)

    Super douche has a concealed weapons permit, and I believe BM is working on getting one. They both have guns in the house. Which, admittedly, does bother me. I am not well versed in guns and I just don't like them. I do believe everyone has a right to cary one and keep one in their home, but knowing I myself nor DH has any control over their gun keeping policies over there just makes my stomach go in knots. So yes, they both have access to guns, but I was shocked to hear SS say that they have already taken him out to try to make him shoot one of their guns.

    I'm lost. I know the simple answer is to file papers, and we will if it comes to that. But at what point do we believe it was returned? I mean, if they show proof it was returned if we go to court, the judge is going to look at us like we are crazy and wasting his time, you know?

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  • Um, even Nerf has an age of something like 6 or 8!  He needs to file, the child is being allowed to shoot guns at 4yo which is dangerous, if you do not stop this it will continue and he could get shot or shoot someone else.  That whole thing is just insane but then again I am pretty anti-gun.
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  • When DS was 5 1/2, we all sat around the kitchen table and let him handle DH's unloaded handgun and started talking to him about gun safety. We also took him shooting, provided him with the appropriate safety gear, and showed him--using a watermelon--the kind of damage a gun could do. 

    DH and I feel VERY strongly that if there are guns in the home, children need to learn safety issues early on. They also need to know how much a gun can hurt someone/something and that the damage can't be undone. 

    So, buying him a gun at age 4? NO--absolutely not. But if BM and her H have guns in their home, I think there should be some sort of conversation/teaching beginning. It doesn't sound like that's what's happening, so there is clearly a problem there. In fact, maybe your H should start looking into talking to your SS about how to be safe.


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  • I am going to agree with the others, there is no reason why a 4 yr old should be given his own gun!

    I know you posted that there are other guns in the house, do you know if they are locked up and ammo away from them? If not (or unsure), pair that up with the gift and I would file endangerment papers. I am all for owning guns (late DH owned one and was in the USAR) but with that comes safety too.

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  • DS's BF thinks 4 is a great age to shoot a gun as well. I found out about this from him and DS after the adoption papers were already signed so I didn't make an issue out of it but if he had still wanted to be a parent at that point I would have had my lawyer file child endangerment papers as well.
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  • Since you brought up rural areas, I figured I'd reply since I was born and raised in a Southern rural area.   I think for a 4 year old to own his own gun is absurd.  I can remember as a kid shooting my brother's BB gun  in our backyard and in the woods, but I think he was 8 or 9 which would've made me 6 or 7. We were always supervised and well educated on gun safety.

    I don't think a child's mind is developed enough to understand what a gun can actually do.  A few towns over there was a hunting accident a few days ago involving a dad and his 7 and 10 year old.  Apparently the 7 year old had a pellet gun and the 10 year old had a shot gun. The 7 year old shot at a deer and missed so the 10 year old tried to shoot it.  The 7 year old ran in front of the gun and was shot and killed.  The dad saw the whole thing.

    I think no matter how careful and how much educating you do it is still so dangerous.  Even when I take my 5 year old into Bass Pro Shops and she plays with the pop guns, she knows that she is to never point it at a person.  I wouldn't even think of allowing her to play with anything that actually shoots something out of it.

  • I haven't responded because I am utterly speechless at the thought of a 4 yr old with a gun (and I think the pps covered pretty much everything).  WTF is she thinking?!!  It is obvious that her judgement is impaired since she is still with that abusive ahole.  I'm thinking child endangerment AND fight for custody.  GL! 

    ETA - This may have already been covered, but take a screen shot of her fb page and keep it for your records, just in case you need it in court.

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  • imagefauxshelley:

    I haven't responded because I am utterly speechless at the thought of a 4 yr old with a gun (and I think the pps covered pretty much everything).  WTF is she thinking?!!  It is obvious that her judgement is impaired since she is still with that abusive ahole.  I'm thinking child endangerment AND fight for custody.  GL! 

    ETA - This may have already been covered, but take a screen shot of her fb page and keep it for your records, just in case you need it in court.

    I always SS both of their FB pages if there is anything questionable on them. Always. I have a binder 2" thick of stuff from myspace and FB. BUT for some reason or another I wasn't thinking.I didn't SS this when I first saw it. I think I was just in shock. I went back about an hour later to SS it, but she had already removed all her posts about it on FB. :-( I ALWAYS do this, I can't believe I missed it.

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  • imagekaratechrissy:
    imagefauxshelley:

    I haven't responded because I am utterly speechless at the thought of a 4 yr old with a gun (and I think the pps covered pretty much everything).  WTF is she thinking?!!  It is obvious that her judgement is impaired since she is still with that abusive ahole.  I'm thinking child endangerment AND fight for custody.  GL! 

    ETA - This may have already been covered, but take a screen shot of her fb page and keep it for your records, just in case you need it in court.

    I always SS both of their FB pages if there is anything questionable on them. Always. I have a binder 2" thick of stuff from myspace and FB. BUT for some reason or another I wasn't thinking.I didn't SS this when I first saw it. I think I was just in shock. I went back about an hour later to SS it, but she had already removed all her posts about it on FB. :-( I ALWAYS do this, I can't believe I missed it.

    Do you still have the text from her mom about it?

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  • imagekaratechrissy:
    I mean, if they show proof it was returned if we go to court, the judge is going to look at us like we are crazy and wasting his time, you know?

    Trust me, judges see stuff that's a LOT crazier and time-wasting than this. Don't let this stand in your way. 

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  • imagekaratechrissy:

    He said that if he saw a return receipt that would be good enough for him.

    But at what point do we believe it was returned? I mean, if they show proof it was returned if we go to court, the judge is going to look at us like we are crazy and wasting his time, you know?

    I'm weighing in way late, but I just wanted to say that most gun stores (at least in Arizona - not sure how it is elsewhere) will NOT allow a "return" of a gun.  Once you buy it, it's yours, unless you sell it back to them as a used gun.  So honestly, I wouldn't trust a receipt that said it was returned, especially if superdouche's "family" owns the store to begin with...

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