Babies: 3 - 6 Months

I guess I should have expected it

The one star thing made me laugh though.

I don't plan on trying to defend myself. I stand behind my opinion, but many others in the comments have very valid points about what a child does and doesn't need (like the need for comfort, and the need to know they can depend on us, etc..) that I didn't actually address in my original post.

I would never suggest anyone not meet their child's needs (and this includes the need to be cuddled/comforted/taught to depend on us and so on). But I will say that when your six month old expects to be rocked to sleep for an hour every night, it's because you made them think they're entitled to it. Plain and simple. A person's basic needs don't change much...we have them from the day we're born until the day we die, and they should always be met. But when a baby expects to be nursed to sleep/rocked to sleep/held all day or any other unrealistic expectation they may have, those are behaviors that we are responsible for, and responsible for changing. All I'm arguing is that as parents, it's our responsibility to decide when and how to do that.

Your child's needs are needs and should be met, always. Everything beyond that is a learned behavior. And if you continue to allow an undesirable learned behavior slide, then yes, your child has learned how to make you do something.

Children are not evil, children are not "manipulators", children are not spoiled. They are entirely selfish individuals by nature, and their behaviors are a product of your parenting decisions from day 1.

That is all.

Re: I guess I should have expected it

  • I don't think six month old babies think they are "entitled" to anything. And since when is being rocked to sleep an unrealistic expectation? Good grief. My baby is an actual human with actual needs. I would never not rock him to sleep just because it's inconvenient for me. 
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  • I think it is ridiculous if you believe my 4 month old child knows the difference between his wants and needs. To him they are one and the same and if by caring for my child I am making him feel "entitled" in your opinion that is fine with me. My son is happy, nurtured and ahead of all of his milestones, sounds like I am doing everything right!
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  • sgrlsgrl member
    My baby feels entitled to being rocked to sleep at night because she IS entitled to being rocked to sleep every night. Wink
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  • imageilenegrace:
    I think it is ridiculous if you believe my 4 month old child knows the difference between his wants and needs. To him they are one and the same and if by caring for my child I am making him feel "entitled" in your opinion that is fine with me. My son is happy, nurtured and ahead of all of his milestones, sounds like I am doing everything right!

    Oh absolutely, you're doing everything right for you and your child.

    I would never presume to know better than you what your child needs. And you're likely right, your child doesn't necessarily know the difference between wants and needs...you will decide when and how to teach that to him.

  • So by your logic, my parenting decision on day one to pick up my crying newborn to soothe her was a deliberate decision to encourage manipulative behavior at 6 months?  That's what you're saying, right?  The decisions you make in the beginning will inevitably lead to selfish behavior down the line?  What are your other options?  Do not pick up the crying newborn on day one?  What about after week one?  It's not a "parenting decision" to meet an infants needs.  It's a parenting must.

    No flames.  I'm just trying to follow the logic of your argument.

    imageimageimageimage
  • imageruth&sam:
    I don't think six month old babies think they are "entitled" to anything. And since when is being rocked to sleep an unrealistic expectation? Good grief. My baby is an actual human with actual needs. I would never not rock him to sleep just because it's inconvenient for me. 

    That was just an example. Something like whether or not to rock or nurse your baby to sleep is a personal choice, and one I would never try to make for anyone else. 

    All I'm saying is, something like teaching your child to go to sleep without you necessarily "putting" them to sleep is a lifelong skill that they will benefit from learning (at whatever point you decide to help teach it to them)...and that teaching them sooner rather than later is not a neglectful act, it's just a parenting choice.

    Waiting to teach your child to self-soothe is a personal parenting choice too...I'm arguing that you can create expectations for your child that are hard to wean them from....not that people shouldn't rock or nurse their baby to sleep. It's all personal decisions.

  • LOL way to go Sgrl! And that's great for you and your baby for as long as it continues to work for both you and your baby. Yes
  • Leah....

    I was definitely trying to explain that comfort is a legitimate need that parents must meet. I just mean that the longer you resort to one specific means of comfort, the harder it will be for your child later when that means of comfort is no longer feasible or reasonable. 

    And I'm saying that babies are born with the set of skills required to "manipulate" parents into meeting their needs, because without that ability it would not be possible to survive. It's the negative connotation of the word "manipulate" that is making this concept so hard to describe. 

    You are not teaching your child to manipulate you. You are teaching them what to expect from you...and if at some point you're going to want them to need less help with something (going to sleep was just an example), you are going to have to teach them to expect less. The parenting decision comes in choosing when and how to do this, and that is what is different for every parent.

    Thanks for posing that question.

  • I totally get what you're saying.  I feel like that with my LO in the mornings!  He is only 4 months old, but at 6am every morning I usually let him into bed with me.  He sleeps longer and I get to sleep in a little if I do this, well now he's starting to cry at 5:30am instead of 6 because he wants to come into bed with Mommy and I only have myself to blame.  He's used to coming into bed with us.  If I would have never started it, it would have been harder in the beginning but I wouldn't need to break him of it now. (I would have missed out on a lot more sleep though if I had never done it so no regrets!)  It looks like we're going to have a rough week trying to break him of this next week (I'm waiting for the weekend!)!

        And I think the same thing when my sister complains because her 2 month old will only fall asleep in the swing or being held.  But as new mom's we have to use some of these tricks or we'd never get any sleep. ;-)

        To those still flaming you, I don't think they completely get the gist of what you mean.

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  • imageJameRoo430:

    I totally get what you're saying.  I feel like that with my LO in the mornings!  He is only 4 months old, but at 6am every morning I usually let him into bed with me.  He sleeps longer and I get to sleep in a little if I do this, well now he's starting to cry at 5:30am instead of 6 because he wants to come into bed with Mommy and I only have myself to blame.  He's used to coming into bed with us.  If I would have never started it, it would have been harder in the beginning but I wouldn't need to break him of it now. (I would have missed out on a lot more sleep though if I had never done it so no regrets!)  It looks like we're going to have a rough week trying to break him of this next week (I'm waiting for the weekend!)!

        And I think the same thing when my sister complains because her 2 month old will only fall asleep in the swing or being held.  But as new mom's we have to use some of these tricks or we'd never get any sleep. ;-)

        To those still flaming you, I don't think they completely get the gist of what you mean.

    Yeah I feel like my message was very misunderstood, but I really should have seen that coming.

    We definitely go into survival mode as new moms and put ourselves in tough situations...but like you said, we really do what we need to in order to get some sleep. 

    That's actually a pretty good example though...her baby doesn't need to be in the swing or held to go to sleep...she has created that expectation for her LO, and now she has to work to change it.

    Your situation with LO coming to bed with you does sound rough. I know a thing or two about being sleep deprived, and recently just had to let my baby cry for 5-10 minutes in his crib....you wouldn't believe how quickly he learned that I wasn't going to pick him up, and that he was expected to go to sleep. It took literally one night. Sure, we'll have setbacks (tonight hasn't been easy, and I feel awful that he's having a rough time) but consistency is key.

    Good luck with your LO next weekend! Definitely enjoy your last bit of snuggle time in the mornings though!

  • imagesgrl:
    My baby feels entitled to being rocked to sleep at night because she IS entitled to being rocked to sleep every night. Wink

    LOVE this response.

    And to OP... we'll just have to agree to disagree.   I know a lot about infant development (see my response to your first post on this subject.)  There is no sense of entitlement in infants... not possible.   My baby is smart, but he cannot feel entitled to anything, not for a really long time.

    There are a lot of books that are published that are pure crap.  Peer reviewed research papers (although long and sometimes boring) are much better in providing legitimate information. 

  • imageLucky428:

    imagesgrl:
    My baby feels entitled to being rocked to sleep at night because she IS entitled to being rocked to sleep every night. Wink

    LOVE this response.

    And to OP... we'll just have to agree to disagree.   I know a lot about infant development (see my response to your first post on this subject.)  There is no sense of entitlement in infants... not possible.   My baby is smart, but he cannot feel entitled to anything, not for a really long time.

    There are a lot of books that are published that are pure crap.  Peer reviewed research papers (although long and sometimes boring) are much better in providing legitimate information. 

    Understandable, I certainly respect your opinion on the subject, and appreciate the educated input as well.

    It was actually a discussion with my mother (who is a child development major and one of the federal developers for a region of Head Start) that got the ball rolling on this one...she was the one trying to help me find a way to get my son to sleep in his crib without me having to put him down while he was already out cold.

    I think you're probably right about the term 'entitlement' in that the concept doesn't exist for a baby, especially not this young. But based on their experiences, I think that it's reasonable to say that your baby has certain expectations. I just think that if you consistently rely on a specific antidote for a certain situation, it only comes to reason that your baby will expect that, and will cry until they get it (if experience tells them that you will give in).

    You certainly have a lot of knowledge on the topic, and I was attempting to open up a dialogue...I guess on that account, I didn't fail completely. I really appreciate your thoughts and responses.

  • imagebethlhurn:
    imageLucky428:

    imagesgrl:
    My baby feels entitled to being rocked to sleep at night because she IS entitled to being rocked to sleep every night. Wink

    LOVE this response.

    And to OP... we'll just have to agree to disagree.   I know a lot about infant development (see my response to your first post on this subject.)  There is no sense of entitlement in infants... not possible.   My baby is smart, but he cannot feel entitled to anything, not for a really long time.

    There are a lot of books that are published that are pure crap.  Peer reviewed research papers (although long and sometimes boring) are much better in providing legitimate information. 

    Understandable, I certainly respect your opinion on the subject, and appreciate the educated input as well.

    It was actually a discussion with my mother (who is a child development major and one of the federal developers for a region of Head Start) that got the ball rolling on this one...she was the one trying to help me find a way to get my son to sleep in his crib without me having to put him down while he was already out cold.

    I think you're probably right about the term 'entitlement' in that the concept doesn't exist for a baby, especially not this young. But based on their experiences, I think that it's reasonable to say that your baby has certain expectations. I just think that if you consistently rely on a specific antidote for a certain situation, it only comes to reason that your baby will expect that, and will cry until they get it (if experience tells them that you will give in).

    You certainly have a lot of knowledge on the topic, and I was attempting to open up a dialogue...I guess on that account, I didn't fail completely. I really appreciate your thoughts and responses.

    I certainly hope my baby has expectations.  I hope he can expect that I will always meet his needs, that I will always be there for him, etc. etc.  He has a "for mama only" smile that melts my heart.

    Helping your child learn how to fall asleep is so different than thinking your baby can manipulate you or have a sense of entitlement.  Some parents are CIO, some are not.  It's important to find which method of sleep training (if any) works for you.

    CIO is not something we will do.  We bed share and both DH and I keep putting off when we will get him out of our bed.  We don't even have a mattress in his crib. However, it is what works for us.

    I'm certain you will find what works for you and your baby. 

    That is wonderful that your mother works for head start.  I did student teaching there.  It was one of the hardest (yet rewarding!) things I ever went through.  

  • imageLucky428:
    imagebethlhurn:
    imageLucky428:

    imagesgrl:
    My baby feels entitled to being rocked to sleep at night because she IS entitled to being rocked to sleep every night. Wink

    LOVE this response.

    And to OP... we'll just have to agree to disagree.   I know a lot about infant development (see my response to your first post on this subject.)  There is no sense of entitlement in infants... not possible.   My baby is smart, but he cannot feel entitled to anything, not for a really long time.

    There are a lot of books that are published that are pure crap.  Peer reviewed research papers (although long and sometimes boring) are much better in providing legitimate information. 

    Understandable, I certainly respect your opinion on the subject, and appreciate the educated input as well.

    It was actually a discussion with my mother (who is a child development major and one of the federal developers for a region of Head Start) that got the ball rolling on this one...she was the one trying to help me find a way to get my son to sleep in his crib without me having to put him down while he was already out cold.

    I think you're probably right about the term 'entitlement' in that the concept doesn't exist for a baby, especially not this young. But based on their experiences, I think that it's reasonable to say that your baby has certain expectations. I just think that if you consistently rely on a specific antidote for a certain situation, it only comes to reason that your baby will expect that, and will cry until they get it (if experience tells them that you will give in).

    You certainly have a lot of knowledge on the topic, and I was attempting to open up a dialogue...I guess on that account, I didn't fail completely. I really appreciate your thoughts and responses.

    I certainly hope my baby has expectations.  I hope he can expect that I will always meet his needs, that I will always be there for him, etc. etc.  He has a "for mama only" smile that melts my heart.

    Helping your child learn how to fall asleep is so different than thinking your baby can manipulate you or have a sense of entitlement.  Some parents are CIO, some are not.  It's important to find which method of sleep training (if any) works for you.

    CIO is not something we will do.  We bed share and both DH and I keep putting off when we will get him out of our bed.  We don't even have a mattress in his crib. However, it is what works for us.

    I'm certain you will find what works for you and your baby. 

    That is wonderful that your mother works for head start.  I did student teaching there.  It was one of the hardest (yet rewarding!) things I ever went through.  

    I think CIO is a very difficult thing to do, and I hate that my son had to cry at all when I was trying to get him to realize that I expect him to go to sleep and stay in his crib. I try to be very lenient with it and make sure all his needs are met, and wouldn't even consider having him cry for more than 10 minutes (which, from what I have read, is the longest amount of time for babies his age to be allowed to cry for any reason).

    As a single mom who was getting no sleep, I had to change my child's expectations of how he was getting to sleep in order for us to function better together, and it was really tough for me, but remarkably easy for him to pick up on (in fact, after just one night of this he started putting himself to sleep in his crib, and I was amazed at his capacity to learn). 

    It's fantastic that you and your husband are on the same page with bed sharing, and that you have each others support in making sure that it works for all three of you.

    Head Start is a great program, though it is difficult to be involved with because of the struggles those poor children and their parents have to face. My mom was actually a Head Start parent (all of my brothers and sisters and I grew up low income and went to preschool in Head Start programs) and she has worked her way from parent to Program Specialist, which gives me even more respect for both her and the program itself.

  • I'm heading to bed but I wanted to say that all the time, DH and I both say we have no idea how single parents do it.  It's hard enough with two adults and one infant.

    We always imagined that being a single parent would be difficult, but until we had a child we never really grasped how hard it would be.  And because there are two of us, we still can't truly "get it."

    You're working hard and doing your best for your family.  Your baby is lucky!!! 

  • imageLucky428:

    I'm heading to bed but I wanted to say that all the time, DH and I both say we have no idea how single parents do it.  It's hard enough with two adults and one infant.

    We always imagined that being a single parent would be difficult, but until we had a child we never really grasped how hard it would be.  And because there are two of us, we still can't truly "get it."

    You're working hard and doing your best for your family.  Your baby is lucky!!! 

    Thank you very much, that's really appreciated.

    Your baby is lucky too...in having two loving parents, in having someone with your education and experience as a parent, and in being unbelievably gorgeous!

    Have a good night.

  • sgrlsgrl member

    Head Start is amazing.

     

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  • First, I just want to say that I can tell by reading this that you're getting more sleep.  Glad to see it!

    Second, I agree with what you're saying, if not all the words you're using when you say it. 

    Even Pantley of NCSS says that babies learn that they can only fall asleep when you're* holding and rocking them.  So they're not maniplulating you, per se, when they wake up at 3AM.  They're doing it because you taught them they can only fall back asleep if you're there rocking  or nursing them .

    If that works for you and your family - especially your baby, great!  Keep doing it.

    If it doesn't, it's time to make a change.  That doesn't necessarily mean CIO, but for the sake of everyone's sanity, you need to teach your baby that they can fall asleep on their own.

    At a certain point, you can't complain that your baby isn't STTN if you're not willing to change your behavior to fix it.

    * Note, the "you" in what I'm writing isn't directed at OP or any of the responders, it's the general "you."

  • imagebethlhurn:

    But I will say that when your six month old expects to be rocked to sleep for an hour every night, it's because you made them think they're entitled to it.

    Indifferent

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  • This is the first time I am reading anything by you, but I am appalled by this post.  You clearly have no clue.
  • imageALittleBirdy:
    This is the first time I am reading anything by you, but I am appalled by this post.  You clearly have no clue.

    So, I'm up nursing my son. It's 5am (true story, this is what I'm doing). He was just fed at 4am. Is it likely that he's hungry? is it likely that he was hungry before, when he slept for twenty minutes between feedings (also true)?

    No. He is nursing because thus far, every time he has woken up he has wanted to comfort himself this way. He expects me to do it, even though he does not need it. Is he manipulating me? 

    He's doing this because I taught him to expect it. When I was BSC in the middle of the night, trying to survive in the first 2 months, I found that he almost always fell asleep if I nursed him, so I did....so we could get back to sleep.The result? feeding a three month old a minimum of five times a night. 

    Any idiot could tell you that he doesn't need to feed that frequently. He does it because I created an expectation that he now has. He will cry until he gets a nipple, because I have taught him to rely on that as a means of soothing himself to sleep. I have two options. Allow him to do this until he naturally outgrows it (possibly a year from now), or change his expectations and teach him another way to get to sleep.

    It's not rocket science. It's logic.

    My sleep deprived brain said "you can't spoil a newborn" so I did what got him to be quiet and go to sleep the fastest. He's not spoiled, but he now has an expectation, and even though you know, I know, the whole world knows he couldn't possibly be hungry, he thinks he needs to nurse because I taught him to.

  • imageALittleBirdy:
    This is the first time I am reading anything by you, but I am appalled by this post.  You clearly have no clue.

    I think what OP is trying to say is that babies can LEARN a behavior. Babies naturally do not need or have the desire to be rocked to sleep however if you rock a baby to sleep everynight then they become dependent on that and will have to be rocked to sleep. This is a learned behavior. I do not think she was knocking anyone who does what they do, to each their own and do what you think is best for YOUR baby and you.

    My LO who was STTNing started waking up at 4am and fussing; so since it was out of his normal thing I would go in and check on him and give his paci...he then would go back to sleep. Well after 2 weeks of this and knowing that my LO was not in need of anything...he was absolutly fine, I started leaving him in there and not going into to check on him. Of course this pissed him off and he cried about it but after 3 days he stopped waking up and went back to STTNing. I had created his need for me to be there in order for him to go back to sleep.

    Also, OP is actually correct in saying that babies are by nature selfish; it's true...it's how they survive. They are programmed to do what they need to do to get what they need to get in order for them to survive. I don't think she ment that in an ugly way.

  • imageALittleBirdy:
    This is the first time I am reading anything by you, but I am appalled by this post.  You clearly have no clue.

    It's nice to see the world's leading expert on infant care has taken time out of her busy lecture circuit to chime in this morning!

  • sam19sam19 member

    My entitled little 6 month old. I've created a monster.

    lol. You are a whackadoo.

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  • imageSuzy12345:

    imageALittleBirdy:
    This is the first time I am reading anything by you, but I am appalled by this post.  You clearly have no clue.

    It's nice to see the world's leading expert on infant care has taken time out of her busy lecture circuit to chime in this morning!

    Yes Suzy.  I don't know the whole story behind this post but it seems to me that the OP might have been looking for a little support as a tired, single mother.  I seem to remember when you were looking for some support on here recently 'ALittleBirdy' and you were treated with respect. 



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  • I love rocking my baby to sleep. It's our bonding time. Big Smile

    I won't say anything else.

  • imagesam19:

    My entitled little 6 month old. I've created a monster.

    lol. You are a whackadoo.

    Really?  Is this necessary?



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  • imageivs112:

    I love rocking my baby to sleep. It's our bonding time. Big Smile

    I won't say anything else.

    This... she sleeps great and puts herself back to sleep if she wakes up at night. I LOVE rocking her to sleep.

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  • Your decision not to seek treatment for your PPD is doing a disservice to you and your child.  Go to one of your county mental health clinics and get help.
    image
  • imageSpenjamins:
    Your decision not to seek treatment for your PPD is doing a disservice to you and your child.  Go to one of your county mental health clinics and get help.

    Who said anything about OP having PPD? Glad to see people are diagnosing others over the interwebz.

  • OP - I totally agree with you.  Your argument is well-thought-out and logical and thus p!sses people off around here.  ;)

    She is not arguing that babies are born manipulators.  She is simply stating that over time they become more and more capable of manipulating the world around them, a skill that evolved because it was necessary for survival.  This is the most positive use of the word "manipulative" that can possibly be used.

    I think we can all agree that 2 yr olds are manipulative, right?  Again, it doesn't mean they are "bad," just smart.  Well, each of us simply has a different opinion about WHEN that manipulation begins.  Some say sooner (6 months) some may say later.

  • imagebethlhurn:

    imageALittleBirdy:
    This is the first time I am reading anything by you, but I am appalled by this post.  You clearly have no clue.

    So, I'm up nursing my son. It's 5am (true story, this is what I'm doing). He was just fed at 4am. Is it likely that he's hungry? is it likely that he was hungry before, when he slept for twenty minutes between feedings (also true)?

    No. He is nursing because thus far, every time he has woken up he has wanted to comfort himself this way. He expects me to do it, even though he does not need it. Is he manipulating me? 

    He's doing this because I taught him to expect it. When I was BSC in the middle of the night, trying to survive in the first 2 months, I found that he almost always fell asleep if I nursed him, so I did....so we could get back to sleep.The result? feeding a three month old a minimum of five times a night. 

    Any idiot could tell you that he doesn't need to feed that frequently. He does it because I created an expectation that he now has. He will cry until he gets a nipple, because I have taught him to rely on that as a means of soothing himself to sleep. I have two options. Allow him to do this until he naturally outgrows it (possibly a year from now), or change his expectations and teach him another way to get to sleep.

    It's not rocket science. It's logic.

    My sleep deprived brain said "you can't spoil a newborn" so I did what got him to be quiet and go to sleep the fastest. He's not spoiled, but he now has an expectation, and even though you know, I know, the whole world knows he couldn't possibly be hungry, he thinks he needs to nurse because I taught him to.

    He surely is not manipulating you.  He might not need to eat, but he does need to nurse. There is a difference between "I'm awake, I'd like to nurse, so I'd better cry to wake mommy up so she'll come feed me," and "So tired...don't know what to do...wahhh."

    You didn't create this need. Babies are born needing help to go to sleep, and born to be soothed and aided by nursing.  I nurse my kid to sleep, and sooth by nursing sometimes, but he sleeps well.  You (and I) can work on helping our LO's learn to sooth by other methods, and try to slowly wean off of comfort nursing if we choose, but this has nothing to do with us being manipulated. 

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  • imageDaisy525:

    imageSpenjamins:
    Your decision not to seek treatment for your PPD is doing a disservice to you and your child.  Go to one of your county mental health clinics and get help.

    Who said anything about OP having PPD? Glad to see people are diagnosing others over the interwebz.

    The OP said it.
    image
  • I'm not going to comment much on the OP, other than to say that partly due to some confusing wording choices and partly due to the fact that people on here get up in arms over the suggestion that babies are capable of...anything, her words are being twisted to mean something that I don't think she intended they mean.

    However, this:

    imageilenegrace:
    I think it is ridiculous if you believe my 4 month old child knows the difference between his wants and needs. To him they are one and the same and if by caring for my child I am making him feel "entitled" in your opinion that is fine with me. My son is happy, nurtured and ahead of all of his milestones, sounds like I am doing everything right!

    is ridiculous. Do you think your son is "ahead in his milestones" because you are a superior parent? Maybe if only those whose children are "behind in their milestones" would rock them a little more, they would catch up?

    I don't see what milestones have to do with anything.

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  • Beth, I'd just like to jump in and tell you that if what you're doing for your LO as a single parent is working for you and you're meeting his needs, then you're doing a wonderful job.  Don't listen to anyone who makes you think otherwise.  I think your argument was sound, and if that's what works for you and Tristan, then by all means, please keep doing what you're doing.  I can't imagine the difficulties associated with being a single parent and FWIW, I think you're handling them admirably. 

    There are more people on this board that agree with your logic than you think.  Yes

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